The Dragon Reborn "Continuity" Issues

[WheelofJuke]

This is my umpteenth time reading The Dragon Reborn, but the first since completing the full series. I seem to be picking up more of the "behind the scenes" intrigue and Forsaken machinations this time around.

 

But I'm also finding plot points that seem inconsistent to the rest of the books. Not sure if I should call them "continuity issues" or "plot holes." 😉

Not sure if these have been discussed before. I'm sure they have been, as the community has always been on top of such things. 

A few of my observations:

- Why isn't Lan with Moiraine when she confronts Be'lal in the Heart of the Stone, despite saying he was going (and her acquiescing) in an earlier chapter? I find it hard to believe he'd just wander off at the most important moment. And if he was held back, why didn't he rush to her aid at the first chance he had after Be'lal crumples her up? 

- Why is Rand able to split and redirect Baalzamon's balefire in the Heart of the Stone, but Be'lal isn't able to react in time to Moiraine's similar blast of balefire?

- When Nynaeve balefires the Myrddraal after being captured by bandits, why aren't the Aiel who were killed/wounded by those Myrddraal brought back to life/healed of their wounds? 

- Why is Rand able to channel through Callandor in the Heart of the Stone without incident, yet it proves unwieldy in later books (when his lightning against the Seanchan strikes his own men, killing them)?

Curious to hear your thoughts.

Edited June 20, 2023 by WheelofJuke
Spelling

[SinisterDeath]

7 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

When Nynaeve balefires the Myrddraal after being captured by bandits, why aren't the Aiel who were killed/wounded by those Myrddraal brought back to life/healed of their wounds? 

The only answer I could have for this, is she just didn't put enough power into the Balefire. 

The amount of power = how far back in time balefire burns something back. 
If they died an hour earlier, but she only burnt the mydraal back 5 seconds, it's not going to change anything.

 

8 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

- Why is Rand able to channel through Callandor in the Heart of the Stone without incident, yet it proves unwieldy in later books (when his lightning against the Seanchan strikes his own men, killing them)?

Plot Armor.

 

Also, at this stage Rand barely has any understanding of what it is he's doing with the one power.

Later on he has more control, and with that control he's able to fully grasp how how unwieldly Callandor is.

 

It's kind of like operating a machine or tool as a child, and then later as an adult operating that same tool, you fully understand the power behind it, and how lucky you were that you managed to operate it without incident as a child.

[WheelofJuke]

10 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The only answer I could have for this, is she just didn't put enough power into the Balefire. 

The amount of power = how far back in time balefire burns something back. 
If they died an hour earlier, but she only burnt the mydraal back 5 seconds, it's not going to change anything.

My first thoughts as well. This seems very plausible; however, I could see Nynaeve being powerful enough to pull the same 'back-to-life' trick with balefire that Rand does. 

 

10 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Plot Armor.

😄 😄

10 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

Also, at this stage Rand barely has any understanding of what it is he's doing with the one power.

Later on he has more control, and with that control he's able to fully grasp how how unwieldly Callandor is.

 

It's kind of like operating a machine or tool as a child, and then later as an adult operating that same tool, you fully understand the power behind it, and how lucky you were that you managed to operate it without incident as a child.

I guess I see what you're saying.

 

I thought the last few books (or MOL maybe) said explicitly that Callandor was a "trap" that couldn't be used solo by a male channeler and needed linking with others. Or am I wrong there?

Thanks for the insights! 🙂

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, WheelofJuke said:

I thought the last few books (or MOL maybe) said explicitly that Callandor was a "trap" that couldn't be used solo by a male channeler and needed linking with others. Or am I wrong there?

Correct, it's a "Trap" in several ways. (Below is according to the Wiki)
First, a Man can be forcibly entered into a Circle against his will.
Second, It amplifies the taint the Male channeler is exposed to. ^{(Whether this means most Sa'Angrael buffer the user against the extra OP/Taint they channel, or whether Callandor somehow draws more taint into it, I don't know)}
And Finally, it lacks a "buffer", which can cause a man to "burn out" drawing too much of the OP through it.

Prophecy/Plot point wise, the "Trap" was there so the shadow had a way to take over the "Dragon", but it also existed to prevent the "Dragon" from going mad and destroying everything if they became "mad" from the Taint.
The danger from a lack of buffer, is mitigated due to the Circles ability to act as a Buffer, so the good guys or the bad guys could "force" the dragon into a circle, preventing them from turning into toast.

[Samt]

I don't think most of these are really continuity issues (Lan maybe a bit, but it's easy to just say he was delayed by someone).  This is mostly just an illustration of the fact that chance frequently drives the narrative.  Callandor can act as a trap, but sometimes it's also a Serangreal that sometimes just works.  Balefire only reverses back a certain amount based on how powerful it is.  And even a powerful channeler can probably send a less powerful bolt of balefire when desired (and it's probably prudent to do so).  

 

As to whether or not balefire can be blocked, split, redirected, etc., I see that as similar to asking why one person was able to block a sword strike and another was killed by a similar sword strike.  Maybe he saw it later, was distracted, didn't react fast enough, or whatever.  It's just narrative chance. 

 

Another example from later books is unweaving.  We know that it's very dangerous and the consequences of failure are quite unpredictable.  But at several points, the consequences of unweaving are actually rather convenient for the plot.  That isn't really an inconsistency, but that sort of thing needs to be used sparingly so it doesn't make the story feel too contrived.  

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 6/20/2023 at 3:52 PM, Samt said:

I don't think most of these are really continuity issues (Lan maybe a bit, but it's easy to just say he was delayed by someone).  This is mostly just an illustration of the fact that chance frequently drives the narrative.  Callandor can act as a trap, but sometimes it's also a Serangreal that sometimes just works.  Balefire only reverses back a certain amount based on how powerful it is.  And even a powerful channeler can probably send a less powerful bolt of balefire when desired (and it's probably prudent to do so).  

 

As to whether or not balefire can be blocked, split, redirected, etc., I see that as similar to asking why one person was able to block a sword strike and another was killed by a similar sword strike.  Maybe he saw it later, was distracted, didn't react fast enough, or whatever.  It's just narrative chance. 

 

Another example from later books is unweaving.  We know that it's very dangerous and the consequences of failure are quite unpredictable.  But at several points, the consequences of unweaving are actually rather convenient for the plot.  That isn't really an inconsistency, but that sort of thing needs to be used sparingly so it doesn't make the story feel too contrived.  

I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the plausible explanations for the difficult to understand scenarios that you provided. I will admit that a lot of times in my confusion I have boiled it down to “must be plot devices”. It didn’t strip away my “all in” mindset when absorbing the books, but despite the fact that I was willing to blindly accept certain things that were plot holes or devices to me because of my love for WOT, it makes me truly grateful to know that there are real reasons for everything. I might be too dense or plain dumb to realize it, but there is meaning in everything. And perceptive fans like you are smart enough to understand it. 

[Asthereal]

On 6/20/2023 at 6:37 PM, WheelofJuke said:

- Why is Rand able to channel through Callandor in the Heart of the Stone without incident, yet it proves unwieldy in later books (when his lightning against the Seanchan strikes his own men, killing them)?

Curious to hear your thoughts.

 

Actually, this bit was explained. The extra unwieldy performance of Callandor in the battle against the Seanchan in PoD was because of the use of the Bowl of Winds earlier. The insane amount of saidin and saidar used there created ripples that caused the one power to be unreliable for a while in that area. Everybody had trouble with this, but Rand more so because he's the strongest and he's using Callandor. Also he's super inexperienced still.

What one might call a plot hole in this case, is that a book later Rand and Nynaeve use even more of the one power when they attempt to cleanse saidin of the taint, but there those ripples don't happen and the battle against the forsaken proceeds somewhat normally. There might be a delay on the effects, and of course they don't come back to that place anymore afterwards, but it's a bit dubious.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

More to the point the  Myrddraal was already dead so the balefire only erased the ashes retrospectively.  Had her attack been faster than the others it should have undone the deaths of the Aiel who had been stabbed by it seconds before.  

 

The re-direct could have been a rare weave that Lews Therin developed and that Rand used instinctively - later Asmodean explicitly states there are some weaves that only a few could master (he is referring to Rand blocking a gateway from closing, which Asmodean thought only Demandred had achieved).  Be'lal was stated to be relatively weak in the power so perhaps not able to manage that particular weave.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I have so many questions about so many things, one thing that I always wondered is why logain never seemed to show any signs of madness. Presumably he had been channeling the OP for some time, but I don’t recall seeing any significant evidence of him being affected by the taint. Being gentled effed him up but I don’t remember him showing any signs of madness. 

[DojoToad]

Different for all channelers. Some went mad very quickly, others kept it under control for years. Given the time frame covered in the books, I don’t think this is a problem. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

Later on you see him from his own POV and he does clearly have a degree of madness in his thinking - but the nature of that (appeared to be megalomania with a bit of paranoia about not being sufficiently important or powerful) would have been suppressed or part of his depression while gentled in book 3.

[nsmallw]

- Why is Rand able to split and redirect Baalzamon's balefire in the Heart of the Stone, but Be'lal isn't able to react in time to Moiraine's similar blast of balefire?

 

A thought.

Perhaps because Rand was holding Callandor at the time, whereas Be'lal only had his innate power to utilize which proved insufficient. 

 

[wotfan4472]

On 6/23/2023 at 4:37 PM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

 

The re-direct could have been a rare weave that Lews Therin developed and that Rand used instinctively - later Asmodean explicitly states there are some weaves that only a few could master (he is referring to Rand blocking a gateway from closing, which Asmodean thought only Demandred had achieved).  

 

The reason Lews Therin and Demandred can do that, is a talent for manipulating gateways. We learn that from another Forsaken's POV.

 

It is only found in one other character, and that is Androl. The difference between these three is that one is far weaker than the others, so he has learned to develop his talent to the greatest extent. Being far more powerful, the other two never developed it, because they had other options to achieve results.

Edited June 30, 2023 by wotfan4472

[Kalessin]

On 6/27/2023 at 2:02 AM, nsmallw said:

- Why is Rand able to split and redirect Baalzamon's balefire in the Heart of the Stone, but Be'lal isn't able to react in time to Moiraine's similar blast of balefire?

 

A thought.

Perhaps because Rand was holding Callandor at the time, whereas Be'lal only had his innate power to utilize which proved insufficient. 

 

Well, wasn't Rand following Baalzamon into Tel'Aran Rhiod at that moment, and - like Perrin in The Towers of Midnight, Ch 37, meeting Egwene in TAR during the battle for the White Tower against Mesaana - it was "just a weave", and Lews Therin knew how to deflect weaves in TAR. (He'd had a hundred or more years in learning how to manage TAR, and Baalzamon seems to have forgotton that.)

[Asthereal]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:28 AM, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I have so many questions about so many things, one thing that I always wondered is why logain never seemed to show any signs of madness. Presumably he had been channeling the OP for some time, but I don’t recall seeing any significant evidence of him being affected by the taint. Being gentled effed him up but I don’t remember him showing any signs of madness. 

 

Logain does spend a large part of the story gentled and unable to channel, so there's that. 😉 

But indeed he does show signs of madness when we're in his POV, and also it indeed develops differently in different male channelers. I feel like Logain was handled extremely well throughout the story: his identity crisis when finding out he's not the dragon when he really thought he was, his depression when gentled and his eventual resolve and rise to power as Rand's left hand felt special to me, even though he gets only very limited page time.

[Agitel]

Regarding Rand splitting balefire, it's been a couple years since I've reread the scene, but hadn't they crossed over into T'A'R? Rand believed he could deflect the balefire weave, so he did.

 

Rand did not know about T'A'R, nor was he aware he was there, but I thought they crossed through some type of strange gateway Ishy had created with the True Power between the real world and T'A'R. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Agitel

[Agitel]

Actually, it was Rand who made the gateway to T'A'R while following Ishy. Rand's narrative is broken up by other POVs.

 

Quote

 

Ba’alzamon fled, man and shadow vanishing.

 

For a moment Rand stared, frowning. There had been a sense of—folding—as Ba’alzamon left. A twisting, as if Ba’alzamon had in some way bent what was. Ignoring the men staring at him, ignoring Moiraine crumpled at the column base, Rand reached out, through Callandor, and twisted reality to make a door to somewhere else. He did not know to where, except that it was where Ba’alzamon had gone.

 

“I am the hunter now,” he said, and stepped through.

 

...

 

Rand was still in the Heart of the Stone, but it was different. There were no men fighting here, no dead men, no one at all but himself. Abruptly the sound of a great gong rang through the Stone, then again, and the very stones beneath his feet resonated. A third time the booming came, but cut off abruptly, as if the gong had shattered. All was still.

 

Where is this place? he wondered. More important, where is Ba’alzamon?

As if to answer him, a blazing shaft like the one Moiraine had made shot out of the shadows among the columns, straight toward his chest. His wrist twisted the sword instinctively; it was instinct as much as anything else that made him loose flows from saidin into Callandor, a flood of the Power that made the sword blaze brighter even than that bar streaking at him. His uncertain balance between existence and destruction wavered. Surely that torrent would consume him.

 

The shaft of light struck the blade of Callandor—and parted on its edge, forking to stream past on either side. He felt his coat singe from its near passage, smelled the wool beginning to burn. Behind him, the two prongs of frozen fire, of liquid light, struck huge redstone columns; where they struck, stone ceased to exist, and the burning bars bored through to other columns, severing those instantaneously as well. The Heart of the Stone rumbled as columns fell and shattered in clouds of dust, sprays of stone fragments. What fell into the light, however, simply—was not, anymore.

 

 

After he beats Ishy he finds himself back in the real Stone with a battle going on around him but the architecture of the Stone restored.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Agitel

[Jsbrads2]

Angreal, Terangreal, and cuellindar are all immune to balefire.

When Belal shot Rand, the balefire hit the razor sharp edge of Callendor and parted. Belal didn’t have anything that could block balefire.

Rand entered world of dreams after fighting Belal. In the dream he fought Ishy far more extensively and destroyed lots of the Stone, that damage was gone when he returned to the real world.

I believe Nynaeve’s weave was very thin, that’s how I read it, tho if they were dead as mentioned above, it may not be able to undo anything.

[Scarloc99]

On 6/20/2023 at 5:37 PM, WheelofJuke said:

This is my umpteenth time reading The Dragon Reborn, but the first since completing the full series. I seem to be picking up more of the "behind the scenes" intrigue and Forsaken machinations this time around.

 

But I'm also finding plot points that seem inconsistent to the rest of the books. Not sure if I should call them "continuity issues" or "plot holes." 😉

Not sure if these have been discussed before. I'm sure they have been, as the community has always been on top of such things. 

A few of my observations:

- Why isn't Lan with Moiraine when she confronts Be'lal in the Heart of the Stone, despite saying he was going (and her acquiescing) in an earlier chapter? I find it hard to believe he'd just wander off at the most important moment. And if he was held back, why didn't he rush to her aid at the first chance he had after Be'lal crumples her up? 

- Why is Rand able to split and redirect Baalzamon's balefire in the Heart of the Stone, but Be'lal isn't able to react in time to Moiraine's similar blast of balefire?

- When Nynaeve balefires the Myrddraal after being captured by bandits, why aren't the Aiel who were killed/wounded by those Myrddraal brought back to life/healed of their wounds? 

- Why is Rand able to channel through Callandor in the Heart of the Stone without incident, yet it proves unwieldy in later books (when his lightning against the Seanchan strikes his own men, killing them)?

Curious to hear your thoughts.

Did Nynave use bale fire here? I have never seen it as that, she just used normal fire. If someone has confirmed it def was balefire please correct me but the description of it is very different to how balefire is described elsewhere. 
 

and ignore me went back and re read and yes it is very balefire ish. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Sir_Charrid

[Kalessin]

Well, Egwene recognizes it as balefire, and she seems quite definite on that.

Quote

“What . . . what was that?” Elayne asked.
Nynaeve shook her head; she looked as stunned as Elayne sounded. “I don’t know. I . . . I was so angry, so afraid, at what they wanted to . . . . I do not know what it was.”
Balefire, Egwene thought. She did not know how she knew, but she was certain of it. Reluctantly, she made herself release saidar; made it release her. She did not know which was harder.

So I think it is balefire.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Kalessin

[VooDooNut]

On 6/22/2023 at 10:04 AM, Asthereal said:

 

Actually, this bit was explained. The extra unwieldy performance of Callandor in the battle against the Seanchan in PoD was because of the use of the Bowl of Winds earlier. The insane amount of saidin and saidar used there created ripples that caused the one power to be unreliable for a while in that area. Everybody had trouble with this, but Rand more so because he's the strongest and he's using Callandor. Also he's super inexperienced still.

What one might call a plot hole in this case, is that a book later Rand and Nynaeve use even more of the one power when they attempt to cleanse saidin of the taint, but there those ripples don't happen and the battle against the forsaken proceeds somewhat normally. There might be a delay on the effects, and of course they don't come back to that place anymore afterwards, but it's a bit dubious.

I'm under the impression the difference between the Bowl of The Winds event and the use of the 2 Sa'Angreal is that the Bowl of The Winds channeled both Saidin and Saidar, but the women conducting the channeling were only controlling Saidar, so Saidin basically went unchecked. Coupled with the taint on Saidin, it's possible the Dark One was able to "influence" the effect of this uncontrolled Saidin as it spread with the bowl's weather effects.

[Asthereal]

On 8/2/2023 at 7:03 AM, VooDooNut said:

I'm under the impression the difference between the Bowl of The Winds event and the use of the 2 Sa'Angreal is that the Bowl of The Winds channeled both Saidin and Saidar, but the women conducting the channeling were only controlling Saidar, so Saidin basically went unchecked. Coupled with the taint on Saidin, it's possible the Dark One was able to "influence" the effect of this uncontrolled Saidin as it spread with the bowl's weather effects.

 

I'm not going to say that you're wrong - I'm not deep enough into the lore to say much for sure anyway - but a point against would be that the Seanchan channelers were also having lots of trouble using saidar, which would suggest that uncontrolled saidin wasn't the problem. I like the idea though.

There are tons of options for solutions to the Power working okay at the cleansing but not at Falme with the Bowl, apart from my cheap idea that the effect might have a delay. A few that I can think of right now:
a) The channeler in charge: Rand at this point is a lot more versatile and experienced than the Seafolk channeler who controlled the circle at the use of the Bowl, who seems to be rather one-sided in her knowledge of the power.
b) The target: Rand and Nynaeve were aiming their efforts at specific targets, being the taint in saidin and Mashadar at Shadar Logoth. Rand knew exactly what he wanted to do, as opposed to the use of the Bowl, which was much more scattered, aiming all around. The women didn't really know what they were doing and were mostly just figuring it out as they went along.

c) The Bowl itself: they know very little about the device when they use it, and they might be doing a number of things wrong, causing all sorts of issues.

 

By all means come up with several more. 😉

Edited August 4, 2023 by Asthereal

[Gary Again]

I always thought the strangeness in the power had more to do with Elayne's unraveled gateway since that was more of an uncontrolled explosive blast of the power rather than the bowl of the winds which seemed fairly under control and was actually kind of anticlimactic in the immediate aftermath in that it didn't really change anything at first. It just always made more sense to me that it was the gateway that caused it.

 

[Kalessin]

8 hours ago, Gary Again said:

I always thought the strangeness in the power had more to do with Elayne's unraveled gateway since that was more of an uncontrolled explosive blast of the power rather than the bowl of the winds which seemed fairly under control and was actually kind of anticlimactic in the immediate aftermath in that it didn't really change anything at first. It just always made more sense to me that it was the gateway that caused it.

 

FWVVLIW, I always thought the same. Also, since the gateway plugged into a location where there had been both saidin and saidar operating, though only saidar under conscious control, and huge amounts of saidin and saidar what's more, it seems that it had ridden on the vastness of that Bowl of the Winds work, to cover a significant area around Altara up to Andor.

[Scarloc99]

On 8/5/2023 at 2:21 AM, Gary Again said:

I always thought the strangeness in the power had more to do with Elayne's unraveled gateway since that was more of an uncontrolled explosive blast of the power rather than the bowl of the winds which seemed fairly under control and was actually kind of anticlimactic in the immediate aftermath in that it didn't really change anything at first. It just always made more sense to me that it was the gateway that caused it.

 

I am pretty sure Robert Jordan confirmed that it was the bowl of the winds. There were 3 reasons for this. 
 

1st as mentioned it drew saidin un controlled into it this meant it could not be checked. 
2nd the bowl was originally designed to have only local weather effects. In the age of legends there were many bowls throughout the world and these combined allowed control of global or regional weather. A single bowl could affect only a very tiny area. 
3rd linked to point 2 the effect on the weather was fighting the dark ones effect. The dark one had not changed what the atmosphere was doing he had instead changed how that was felt by the world. There are several times where Nyn can read that the weather should be raining, or storming and it isn’t

 

So it was this that affected saidin. The female channelers didn’t have the same impact to them.