Why Do they keep acting as if the dragon reborn can be female?

[Sabio]

As Brandon said, they best way to approach the series is to view it as this is just one possible turning of the wheel in the infinite possibilites.  Since with portal stones we know there are many different worlds out there with many different possibilites on what may happen or could happen.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Sabio

[Ralph]

9 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

IIRC the idea that one of them could be the Dragon was barely mentioned in the book.  If at all.   

 

This afternoon I spent 5 minutes laying out the plot of the book to my wife, as she has never read the books.   Her reaction was "why the heck didn't they just tell that story then? That sounds way more compelling than what they put on screen. "   I could not answer her.   

 

What did you say exactly? 

 

I'd be very interested to hear 

[Daenelia]

@Yojimbo Your wife is the opposite of what I had with my guy: I am not allowed to explain the plot at all. He is watching the show and he is loving it, has no trouble with understanding it without my input. I can't even say stuff about casting! The story comes across well and I enjoy his own speculations which are somehow right on target, sometimes.

 

He is having a great time determining who the Dragon could be. It's a joy to watch the show with him and I am grateful for that ?

 

The plot discussions will follow after this season... without me trying to spoil the next one! ?

[king of nowhere]

 There is a podcast with brandon sanderson and dan wells where they discuss and explain the changes.

All those who wonder why, they should watch that.

They could still disagree afterwards, but at least tey'd know why

[Yojimbo]

9 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

What did you say exactly? 

 

I'd be very interested to hear 

Exactly?   There is too much.  I sum up.  (also, when I talk for very long I tend to ramble, and go off on tangents, and have to sometimes be prodded to get to the frelling point.  Keep this in mind while you read this).

 

I started by explaining to her that there was no mystery at all to who the dragon was (I knew Rand was going to be the protagonist the moment he showed up), because the DR was almost never mentioned.   The mystery was why the DO had any interest in the EF's at all.  

 

I explained that they spent large parts of the book doubting Moiraine was either telling them the truth or had their best interests at heart.  That they eventually came to agree that there had to be something to it, since they all had things happen to them (like the dreams and getting chased by darkfriends and Trollocs and Fades, and Mat speaking in a dead tongue out of nowhere) that gave her explanation more weight, which eventually led them to accept that it was their duty to the world to go to the Eye.  Even Nynaeve, who spends most of the book distrusting Moraine and trying to get them all away from her.  This is what she specifically thought was more compelling.    The mystery of who the dragon is seems very contrived to her, as she figured out it would be Rand very quickly (she's way smarter than me, and has read every Sherlock Holmes story a dozen times).

 

I told her that the EF's were all (except Nyn) basically kids, with almost no understanding of the wider world, but as we got to know them we saw that there was hidden depths to them.  How Egwene, though the youngest by two or three years was probably the bravest of them all.    Even Mat, who might complain about it, but almost always comes through for the people he loves.   I explained how and why Rand's sword was so important to him, and why that sword kept getting him in trouble.   I told her more about Shader Logoth and what mashadar was and what it was doing to Mat.   I told her about Min, and her viewings.    I told her about Elyas Machera and what he meant to Perrin, and how the Whitecloaks came to hate Perrin, and what they actually were in that world.  I told her about Thom, and how he became almost a father figure to Rand.   I told her how Loial was considered to be too young at 90 years old to be out of the sledding, but had an enormous breadth of knowledge that was absolutely necessary to them, and how even he could see the boys were all T'averen even though he did not have that talent (further emphasizing the point Moraine had made).   I explained to her a bit about what each Ajah was, and why the blues and the reds were so at odds.   I also explained a little about how Saidin and Sairdar worked, and that it really isn't that men foul the One Power, but that the one power was fouled by the Dark One, and why that means the DR could never be a woman.   Its a really large distinction that the show has not explained well at all, to the point I have to wonder if they will ever make it clear.   I find the whole "well, they are going off of bad information" to be a bit too overused. It's being used too much as a crutch IMO. 

 

There was more, but I don't need to rehash the entire first book here as we all know it.   Her major complaints about the show has always been about pacing and lack of character development.   She would have liked more explanation about the world itself, and more time getting to know and care about the main characters.  She finds that too many times the story jumps from story point to story point to the detriment of character development.   

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Yojimbo

[Yojimbo]

6 hours ago, Daenelia said:

@Yojimbo Your wife is the opposite of what I had with my guy: I am not allowed to explain the plot at all. He is watching the show and he is loving it, has no trouble with understanding it without my input. I can't even say stuff about casting! The story comes across well and I enjoy his own speculations which are somehow right on target, sometimes.

 

He is having a great time determining who the Dragon could be. It's a joy to watch the show with him and I am grateful for that ?

 

The plot discussions will follow after this season... without me trying to spoil the next one! ?

I am very happy that this is your experience.  I really am.   I know people who are DC comics fans and I feel terrible for them because so much of that universe on film has been awful.   I am lucky in that, with all the changes they've made, the Marvel movies still remind me why I loved those characters as a kid.   

[notpropaganda73]

54 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I find the whole "well, they are going off of bad information" to be a bit too overused. It's being used too much as a crutch IMO. 

 

 

I 100% agree with this. I actually like the idea of all the information maybe being a bit more unreliable than it was in the books, or that the AS are less sure of the prophecies and all those things. But it feels like every gap in the story so far is being justified by "well they're not sure about the prophecies" etc. It's a nice wrinkle to add to the story but shouldn't dominate every thread imo. 

[Skipp]

7 hours ago, Daenelia said:

@Yojimbo Your wife is the opposite of what I had with my guy: I am not allowed to explain the plot at all. He is watching the show and he is loving it, has no trouble with understanding it without my input. I can't even say stuff about casting! The story comes across well and I enjoy his own speculations which are somehow right on target, sometimes.

 

He is having a great time determining who the Dragon could be. It's a joy to watch the show with him and I am grateful for that ?

 

The plot discussions will follow after this season... without me trying to spoil the next one! ?

 

My wife and friends are much the same. A question is rarely asked during the episode.  Occasionally they will ask me to clarify after an episode is finished but nothing big.  Hell one of my friends picked up that when Suian mentioned being stilled that it was something similar to gentling.

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Yojimbo said:

Exactly?   There is too much.  I sum up.  (also, when I talk for very long I tend to ramble, and go off on tangents, and have to sometimes be prodded to get to the frelling point.  Keep this in mind while you read this).

 

I started by explaining to her that there was no mystery at all to who the dragon was (I knew Rand was going to be the protagonist the moment he showed up), because the DR was almost never mentioned.   The mystery was why the DO had any interest in the EF's at all.  

 

I explained that they spent large parts of the book doubting Moiraine was either telling them the truth or had their best interests at heart.  That they eventually came to agree that there had to be something to it, since they all had things happen to them (like the dreams and getting chased by darkfriends and Trollocs and Fades, and Mat speaking in a dead tongue out of nowhere) that gave her explanation more weight, which eventually led them to accept that it was their duty to the world to go to the Eye.  Even Nynaeve, who spends most of the book distrusting Moraine and trying to get them all away from her.  This is what she specifically thought was more compelling.    The mystery of who the dragon is seems very contrived to her, as she figured out it would be Rand very quickly (she's way smarter than me, and has read every Sherlock Holmes story a dozen times).

 

I told her that the EF's were all (except Nyn) basically kids, with almost no understanding of the wider world, but as we got to know them we saw that there was hidden depths to them.  How Egwene, though the youngest by two or three years was probably the bravest of them all.    Even Mat, who might complain about it, but almost always comes through for the people he loves.   I explained how and why Rand's sword was so important to him, and why that sword kept getting him in trouble.   I told her more about Shader Logoth and what mashadar was and what it was doing to Mat.   I told her about Min, and her viewings.    I told her about Elyas Machera and what he meant to Perrin, and how the Whitecloaks came to hate Perrin, and what they actually were in that world.  I told her about Thom, and how he became almost a father figure to Rand.   I told her how Loial was considered to be too young at 90 years old to be out of the sledding, but had an enormous breadth of knowledge that was absolutely necessary to them, and how even he could see the boys were all T'averen even though he did not have that talent (further emphasizing the point Moraine had made).   I explained to her a bit about what each Ajah was, and why the blues and the reds were so at odds.   I also explained a little about how Saidin and Sairdar worked, and that it really isn't that men foul the One Power, but that the one power was fouled by the Dark One, and why that means the DR could never be a woman.   Its a really large distinction that the show has not explained well at all, to the point I have to wonder if they will ever make it clear.   I find the whole "well, they are going off of bad information" to be a bit too overused. It's being used too much as a crutch IMO. 

 

There was more, but I don't need to rehash the entire first book here as we all know it.   Her major complaints about the show has always been about pacing and lack of character development.   She would have liked more explanation about the world itself, and more time getting to know and care about the main characters.  She finds that too many times the story jumps from story point to story point to the detriment of character development.   

 

 

That's wonderful.

 

But is the main point the pacing and insufficient explanation for things or the story? A lot of what you have said is stuff that is in the show, just not explained well, which is a big issue. But not the story itself

 

And some of what you have said is from later in the books

[Sabio]

On 12/11/2021 at 7:53 PM, king of nowhere said:

we know the gitra moroso foretelling (if they didn't change it from the books).

but did she specifically said "right now"? sure, she pretty strongly implied it, but aes sedai should know what to make of pretty strong implication.

and so moiraine and siuan think they understood the gitara foretelling right, but - when confronted by someone who seem like a good fit - they have doubts. maybe we misunderstood? maybe there's some other subtle meaning that we missed?

after all, the prophecies are full of cryptic stuff.

The actual foretelling was "He is born again! I feel him!  The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount!  He is coming!  He is coming!  Light help us!  Light help the world!  He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder!  He burns like the sun!

 

The he takes his first breath pretty much cement that they should know without a doubt his age.  Now the series might change it but seems that was at least given since even Lan had to tell her Logain was too old.  But you can try to examine it to see if any Aes Sedai world play is occuring.  One main thing is they will need to change it alot to try and push the five dragon nonsense.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Sabio

[bryce0110]

3 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

Exactly?   There is too much.  I sum up.  (also, when I talk for very long I tend to ramble, and go off on tangents, and have to sometimes be prodded to get to the frelling point.  Keep this in mind while you read this).

 

I started by explaining to her that there was no mystery at all to who the dragon was (I knew Rand was going to be the protagonist the moment he showed up), because the DR was almost never mentioned.   The mystery was why the DO had any interest in the EF's at all.  

 

I explained that they spent large parts of the book doubting Moiraine was either telling them the truth or had their best interests at heart.  That they eventually came to agree that there had to be something to it, since they all had things happen to them (like the dreams and getting chased by darkfriends and Trollocs and Fades, and Mat speaking in a dead tongue out of nowhere) that gave her explanation more weight, which eventually led them to accept that it was their duty to the world to go to the Eye.  Even Nynaeve, who spends most of the book distrusting Moraine and trying to get them all away from her.  This is what she specifically thought was more compelling.    The mystery of who the dragon is seems very contrived to her, as she figured out it would be Rand very quickly (she's way smarter than me, and has read every Sherlock Holmes story a dozen times).

 

I told her that the EF's were all (except Nyn) basically kids, with almost no understanding of the wider world, but as we got to know them we saw that there was hidden depths to them.  How Egwene, though the youngest by two or three years was probably the bravest of them all.    Even Mat, who might complain about it, but almost always comes through for the people he loves.   I explained how and why Rand's sword was so important to him, and why that sword kept getting him in trouble.   I told her more about Shader Logoth and what mashadar was and what it was doing to Mat.   I told her about Min, and her viewings.    I told her about Elyas Machera and what he meant to Perrin, and how the Whitecloaks came to hate Perrin, and what they actually were in that world.  I told her about Thom, and how he became almost a father figure to Rand.   I told her how Loial was considered to be too young at 90 years old to be out of the sledding, but had an enormous breadth of knowledge that was absolutely necessary to them, and how even he could see the boys were all T'averen even though he did not have that talent (further emphasizing the point Moraine had made).   I explained to her a bit about what each Ajah was, and why the blues and the reds were so at odds.   I also explained a little about how Saidin and Sairdar worked, and that it really isn't that men foul the One Power, but that the one power was fouled by the Dark One, and why that means the DR could never be a woman.   Its a really large distinction that the show has not explained well at all, to the point I have to wonder if they will ever make it clear.   I find the whole "well, they are going off of bad information" to be a bit too overused. It's being used too much as a crutch IMO. 

 

There was more, but I don't need to rehash the entire first book here as we all know it.   Her major complaints about the show has always been about pacing and lack of character development.   She would have liked more explanation about the world itself, and more time getting to know and care about the main characters.  She finds that too many times the story jumps from story point to story point to the detriment of character development.   

 

I feel that most of the issues with pacing and character development is less an issue with the writing of the series and more and issue of not having the time to show everything they wanted. Rafe originally wanted 10 episodes and a 2 hour pilot but amazon said no and only gave him the 8. With 10 episodes we likely would have gotten a lot better pacing and much more character development than we have right now. But oh well, there's always season 2.

[Yojimbo]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

 

That's wonderful.

 

But is the main point the pacing and insufficient explanation for things or the story? A lot of what you have said is stuff that is in the show, just not explained well, which is a big issue. But not the story itself

 

And some of what you have said is from later in the books

I think pacing goes back to her saying "they keep going from plot point to plot point without explaining why these things are significant and why we are supposed to care about them (the characters)."  And I totally agree that if Rafe wanted 10 episodes and only got 8 it makes it infinitely harder to hit those plot points AND explain their significance.   

 

And yes, I told her things from further on in the books to help explain some of the things I told her from EotW.   Because, as I said, I really tend to go off on tangents when I get excited about talking about something.  ?

 

[WOTReader2]

2 hours ago, Sabio said:

The actual foretelling was "He is born again! I feel him!  The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount!  He is coming!  He is coming!  Light help us!  Light help the world!  He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder!  He burns like the sun!

 

The he takes his first breath pretty much cement that they should know without a doubt his age.  Now the series might change it but seems that was at least given since even Lan had to tell her Logain was too old.  But you can try to examine it to see if any Aes Sedai world play is occuring.  One main thing is they will need to change it alot to try and push the five dragon nonsense.

Let's give it a go:

 

"He, or she, is born again! I feel him or her!  The Dragon takes his, or her, first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount, but maybe not now!  He, or she, is coming!  He, or she, is coming!  Light help us!  Light help the world!  He, or she, lies in the snow and cries like the thunder!  He, or she, burns like the sun!

 

Not exactly catchy.

[Spiritweaver1]

On 12/11/2021 at 4:55 PM, The Purple Ajah said:

A) Because a female Dragon would probably be envisioned as something like a mega-powerful wilder warlord, who is still destined to potentially break the world again (which is still possible if saidar's uncorrupted, the vast majority of LTT's actions that led to the Breaking happened when saidin was still uncorrupted) and have all nations bow before her. Seems pretty darn scary to me: it's like how, a "sane dictator" is a different kind of scary than a "mad dictator", and not necessarily better, because they know the exact way to inflict pain on you. 

 

B) Many women and men have claimed themselves as False Dragons. Why does anyone declare themselves a False Dragon, usually because of true belief, and a desire for power or to become some sort of messiah. I don't see how that's really affected.

What actions are you referring to.  There were only two acts that lead to the breaking.  The first was the female Aes  Sedai deciding that the strike on Shayol Ghul was  too risky so Lews Therin and the Companions had to seal the bore without female help.  Second  LTT and the boys decided to go ahead anyway, but that resulted in a incomplete seal which allowed the DO opportunity for a counter strike which was to foul saidin.  LTT only had one decision action.  The others two were the cowardly women and the dastardly DO.  Or you could say that it was the Wheel which willed and it is nobody's action but the pattern.?

[Spiritweaver1]

14 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

Let's give it a go:

 

"He, or she, is born again! I feel him or her!  The Dragon takes his, or her, first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount, but maybe not now!  He, or she, is coming!  He, or she, is coming!  Light help us!  Light help the world!  He, or she, lies in the snow and cries like the thunder!  He, or she, burns like the sun!

 

Not exactly catchy.

 No no that's not right.  That was before the multi dragon prophesy.  You seem behind!?

 

They are born again, They take their first breaths on the slopes of Dragonmount or wherever they are.  They are coming, they are coming.  Light help us, light help the world, they lie in the snow and cry like the thunder. They burn like the sun!.

[KakitaOCU]

22 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

Let's give it a go:

 

"He, or she, is born again! I feel him or her!  The Dragon takes his, or her, first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount, but maybe not now!  He, or she, is coming!  He, or she, is coming!  Light help us!  Light help the world!  He, or she, lies in the snow and cries like the thunder!  He, or she, burns like the sun!

 

Not exactly catchy.

Given that many languages, including English, will use a male or female pronoun for something unknown as a generic default, her fortelling could change not at all and still mean a man or a woman.

That's the problem with he/his being the gender neutral pronoun in proper english.

[Sabio]

58 minutes ago, WOTReader2 said:

"He, or she, is born again! I feel him or her!  The Dragon takes his, or her, first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount, but maybe not now!  He, or she, is coming!  He, or she, is coming!  Light help us!  Light help the world!  He, or she, lies in the snow and cries like the thunder!  He, or she, burns like the sun!

 

Not exactly catchy.

It's good but it doesn't take into account the apparently possible 5 dragon theory they tossed out in the episode.  

 

So I guess it's more of:

 

He, she, or they is/are born again! I feel him, her or them!  The Dragon possibly Dragons takes his, her, or their first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount, but maybe not now!  He, she, or them are coming!  He, she, or them are coming!  Light help us!  Light help the world!  He, she, or they lie in the snow and cry like the thunder!  He, she, or they burns like the sun!

Edited December 13, 2021 by Sabio

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, WOTReader2 said:

Let's give it a go:

 

"He, or she, is born again! I feel him or her!  The Dragon takes his, or her, first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount, but maybe not now!  He, or she, is coming!  He, or she, is coming!  Light help us!  Light help the world!  He, or she, lies in the snow and cries like the thunder!  He, or she, burns like the sun!

 

Not exactly catchy.

It's not hard.

"The Dragon is born again! I feel it! The Dragon takes its first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! It comes, it comes! Light help us! Light help the world! The Dragon lies in the snow and cries like the thunder. It's soul burns like the sun!!"

[Sabio]

So how does one explain their thinking there might be multiple Dragons?  Honestly was dumb for them to toss that in the series.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Sabio said:

So how does one explain their thinking there might be multiple Dragons?  Honestly was dumb for them to toss that in the series.

No one thinks there are, in fact, multiple Dragons. The conversation was about the difficulty of relying on ancient translations. It's a conversation about Moiraine's frustration at her inability to figure out who it is. 

[Sabio]

I took the scene differently.  It sounded like a conversation about all these powerful channelers/unique people are there so maybe they all have some part of the Dragon in them.   Which to me was totally insane.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Sabio said:

I took the scene differently.  It sounded like a conversation about all these powerful channelers/unique people are there so maybe they all have some part of the Dragon in them.   Which to me was totally insane.

Moiraine is just throwing stuff at the wall at that point. It's not meant to be a profound statement of Lore.

[Gothic Flame]

On 12/12/2021 at 6:54 AM, DojoToad said:

I win again Lews Therin 

Imagine that line as the last thing overheard on the last episode shown.

Wouldn't that be something.

[expat]

Quote

"He is born again! I feel him!  The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount!  He is coming!  He is coming!  Light help us!  Light help the world!  He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder!  He burns like the sun!

 

The simplest change is to replace the "He" in the first sentence to "LTT". All the other "he" are based the original naming of LTT as the person being born.  Something like this: 

 

LTT is born again! I feel him!  The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount!  He is coming!  He is coming!  Light help us!  Light help the world!  He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder!  He burns like the sun!

 

Would it be strange to use the only instantiation [LTT] of an abstract concept [Dragon] in such a situation? 

[expat]

Quote

So how does one explain their thinking there might be multiple Dragons?  Honestly was dumb for them to toss that in the series.

If you are going to insist on bringing this up in the face of previous quotes by the showrunner that the book readers already know who the DR is, at least quote the context.  After complaining about the uncertainty of the prophecy translation, Moiraine says that there is even a gleeman talking about a multi souled dragon.  This throwaway line was illustrating the amount of bad information circulating about the prophecies in the show's version of the population, not an indication that she believes it.  If I related that my five year old nephew said that the sun was going to come up in the west tomorrow, would you take that indicate that disaster is about to strike as the earth reverses it spin.