Why Do they keep acting as if the dragon reborn can be female?

[Apoc81]

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

What happened in the novels with regards to the reincarnation of the Dragon is irrelevant with regards to the TV series because, as I noted, the show has eliminated the idea of souls being gender-locked.

 

In both an AMA that he did on Reddit and in an interview with io9, Rafe specifically talks about the show's approach to reincarnation, not just of regular souls, but of the Dragon's soul:

 

 

 

Which is just part if the reason Rafe should never have been given control, or why Harriet should have negotiated veto power of his ridiculous changes. If I was her, I'd be furious.

[Sabio]

Is the show saying a female could be the Dragon really a book destroying change?  Since we know the Dragon is the same as in the books, is it really a big deal? it was only added to try to add suspense as to who the dragon is.  But in the end it doesn't really affect anything.

[DigificWriter]

The Dragon Reborn possibly being female is more than just simple misdirection and obfuscation of the plot for the sake of suspense. Its a representation of a direct change on the part of the show's production team to the metaphysics of the WoT world as presented in the books.

 

Even without a change to the identity of the Dragon Reborn, degendering souls is going to have ripple effects within the story as presented onscreen.

[Sabio]

But unless they actually change who the dragon is then it's just fluff tossed in.  In the book there really wasn't alot of suspense as to who the dragon really was.

[Ralph]

We are covering old ground now here. This debate has been debated ad nauseam

[DigificWriter]

13 minutes ago, Sabio said:

But unless they actually change who the dragon is then it's just fluff tossed in.  In the book there really wasn't alot of suspense as to who the dragon really was.

 

It isn't, though.

 

Within the WoT world as presented on the show, any person - up to and including the Dragon Reborn - could be reincarnated as a man or woman in their next life regardless of what gender they were in their previous life (or lives).

 

Even if the Dragon ultimately wasn't reborn as a woman in this Turning of the Wheel as seen from an in-universe perspective, we are most likely going to see past versions of the Dragon who were in fact women.

[fra85uk]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

But unless they actually change who the dragon is then it's just fluff tossed in.  In the book there really wasn't alot of suspense as to who the dragon really was.

Because the book was not about the mistery of "who the Dragon is" but "why the Dark One want these Kids?"

[Yojimbo]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

Because the book was not about the mistery of "who the Dragon is" but "why the Dark One want these Kids?"

IIRC the idea that one of them could be the Dragon was barely mentioned in the book.  If at all.   

 

This afternoon I spent 5 minutes laying out the plot of the book to my wife, as she has never read the books.   Her reaction was "why the heck didn't they just tell that story then? That sounds way more compelling than what they put on screen. "   I could not answer her.   

[Sabio]

3 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Because the book was not about the mistery of "who the Dragon is" but "why the Dark One want these Kids?"

Didn't the DO want the kids because one was the dragon?  We knew the DO was after the kids because one of them might be the Dragon.  The only differences are instead of three suspects they gave us five suspects and they cut away alot of Rand POV to hopefully not make it so obvious.  

[MasterAblar]

5 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Didn't the DO want the kids because one was the dragon?  We knew the DO was after the kids because one of them might be the Dragon.  The only differences are instead of three suspects they gave us five suspects and they cut away alot of Rand POV to hopefully not make it so obvious.  

 

No the Dragon Reborn was never mentioned. Moiraine told them the Dark One wanted them, either one or all, and convinced them by pointing out only their homes were attacked. And to be honest it made more sense, I'm still not happy about Moiraine just revealing to 4 complete nobodies she knows nothing of and has 0 trust in that one of them is the Dragon Reborn. But then Moiraine is, for the most part, a lot less close lipped and mysterious in the show. 

 

That last part could be problematic when it comes to selling how suspicious Rand is of her. They still have time to build that up though to be fair, and Rand has already shown himself to be incredibly stubborn so we'll see.

Edited December 12, 2021 by MasterAblar

[Scarloc99]

On 12/11/2021 at 9:42 PM, king of nowhere said:

it's even explained in the latest (6th) episode, in the conversation between moiraine and siuan

"the prophecies say"

"the prophecies we have are copies of translations of translations of translations! who knows how much stuff got confused or lost in the process!"

 

so, as far as we know, the lore is not changed. the characters are not as sure of their prophecies as they were in the books

Add in this thought.  if I was Black Ajah working or the Dark One knowing the Dragon Reborn could be forced to join the Dark One, then I would manipulate the rest of the world to believe all sorts of wrong things just to make it easier to get to the DR first. 

[Scarloc99]

On 12/11/2021 at 8:59 PM, Kazhvar said:

The actors keep referring to the DR as he or she but the DR cannot possibly be a she sine Saidar was never tainted by the Dark one. Why is this in the show? Its extremely confusing when you're trying to explain the entire background and lore of the world to someone and you're having to argue with the show...

The characters getting the lore wrong is very different to accusing the writers of changing the world. In the book RJ didn’t try and make us guess who the DR was, it was pretty clear early on because Rand is the main character of book 1. In the TV series Rafe has both muddied the waters about who the dragon might be, and also shown that the Aes Sedai don’t know everything. 

[Sabio]

Who says Saidar needs to be corrupted for the Dragon to be a female? At least for the Aes Sedai they wouldn't automatically make a connection to the half of the source corrupted means that's the sex of the dragon.  All they know is LTT tried to seal the bore and the male half got tainted, but is there any prophecy saying that means the dragon would be a male?

[JenniferL]

Maybe they do and the show Aes Sedai are just so sexist they don’t believe it? “Yeah right, a guy can be the Dragon. And maybe they’ll remember to put their socks in the hamper too”. 

[Kazhvar]

8 hours ago, Sabio said:

Is the show saying a female could be the Dragon really a book destroying change?  Since we know the Dragon is the same as in the books, is it really a big deal? it was only added to try to add suspense as to who the dragon is.  But in the end it doesn't really affect anything.

Yes it is. It wouldnt even be the same story. It literally would not be the wheel of time universe if a female dragon was even possible

[Kazhvar]

1 hour ago, Sabio said:

Who says Saidar needs to be corrupted for the Dragon to be a female? At least for the Aes Sedai they wouldn't automatically make a connection to the half of the source corrupted means that's the sex of the dragon.  All they know is LTT tried to seal the bore and the male half got tainted, but is there any prophecy saying that means the dragon would be a male?

Because before Saidin was corrupted there was no dragon. As sedai both male and female fought together. The dragon was created from the corruption of saidin and therefore can only be found IN the corruption

[Kudzu]

4 minutes ago, Kazhvar said:

Because before Saidin was corrupted there was no dragon. As sedai both male and female fought together. The dragon was created from the corruption of saidin and therefore can only be found IN the corruption

 

Huh? Lews Therin Telamon was named Dragon long before Saidin was tainted.

[Kazhvar]

2 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

 

Huh? Lews Therin Telamon was named Dragon long before Saidin was tainted.

Am I wrong in This? U have a reference for that?

[Deadsy]

On 12/11/2021 at 2:59 PM, Kazhvar said:

The actors keep referring to the DR as he or she but the DR cannot possibly be a she sine Saidar was never tainted by the Dark one. Why is this in the show? Its extremely confusing when you're trying to explain the entire background and lore of the world to someone and you're having to argue with the show...

 

 

Why are you still not over it? We found out in the first scene that this was going to be a change in the show.

[JenniferL]

Yeah, Kazhvar is incorrect. Lews Therin was named Dragon during the War of Power. 
 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon

[Deadsy]

Also, should this topic title be allowed? I see other topics warning of book spoilers, and this topic title is a pretty big book spoiler.

[Kazhvar]

2 minutes ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

Why are you still not over it? We found out in the first scene that this was going to be a change in the show.

What do u mean why am I still not over it? That was my first post on this forum and I just watched the show a few days ago

[Deadsy]

Just now, Kazhvar said:

What do u mean why am I still not over it? That was my first post on this forum and I just watched the show a few days ago

 

 

Ok then, but you mention they "keep" doing it. It's clear from the first scene they've changed things. So of course they're going to keep doing it until they reveal who the Dragon Reborn is.

[Kudzu]

27 minutes ago, Kazhvar said:

Am I wrong in This? U have a reference for that?

 

See JenniferL's link above. If you want an in book reference.

 

The Shadow Rising - Chapter 26 - The Dedicated

 

Quote

If Charn had to make up stories, Coumin wished he could say he had served Lews Therin, the great leader himself. Of course, everyone would ask why he was not serving the Dragon now, but that would be better than the way things were.

 

This is in the way back ter'angreal at the time news was first spreading that Lews Therin had sealed the Dark One away. Lews was already known as the Dragon and they didn't yet know about the taint.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Kudzu
expanding quote for context

[Kazhvar]

On 12/12/2021 at 9:59 PM, JenniferL said:

Yeah, Kazhvar is incorrect. Lews Therin was named Dragon during the War of Power. 
 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Dragon

The war of power was at the end of the age of legends. And according to this it does not refer to LTT as the DR until after the tainting is saidin. Even says there were people fighting over who was in charge and. O clear chain of command even with people questioning the authority of LTT as supreme commander of the light with opposition from Decume

 

On 12/12/2021 at 10:15 PM, Kazhvar said:

The war of power was at the end of the age of legends. And according to this it does not refer to LTT as the DR until after the tainting is saidin. Even says there were people fighting over who was in charge and. O clear chain of command even with people questioning the authority of LTT as supreme commander of the light with opposition from Decume

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/War_of_Power

 

On 12/12/2021 at 10:04 PM, Deadsy said:

 

 

Ok then, but you mention they "keep" doing it. It's clear from the first scene they've changed things. So of course they're going to keep doing it until they reveal who the Dragon Reborn is.

Well yeah when u watch 5 episodes in a row and then go wtf m8 something isnt right you say they keep doing it