How did the show hold up for you?

[DaddyFinn]

Logic behind the changes has been discussed here numerous times

[fra85uk]

21 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Logic behind the changes has been discussed here numerous times

Still, while it might be reasonable to say that the writers followed  a logic in the change, it is as reasonable to dislike such changes and think that, always using logic, the show could have followed more faithfully the  source material and have a better show.

But, of course, while I can think that Rafe was a poor choice as showrunner (his record speaks anyway), we will never have the proof that a closer adaptation would have been better, because we will not have any. 

 

Maybe, it will end up like Cowboy Bebop, whose showrunners similarly thought that their mission was to fix it...and got cancelled after season 1.

Or it will just stay at the level where it is now (most probable for me)

Or (I highly doubt) it will succeed to enter pop-culture and collegues at work or friends will only talk about it, as it happened for GoT.

 

Only time will tell...

[Guest Cranglevoid]

10 hours ago, Dead Warder said:

Weird, I thought Elayne's hair looked liked this. Apparently I misunderstood - I gotta go back and re-read some more.

 

No, that's pretty much spot on. Remember this part from The Fires of Heaven:

 

"Rand stroked Elayne's hair and smiled to himself as he reached the smooth, bare skin of her bald spot. He always imagined it as a barren field, wiped clean with balefire, leaving not a trace of hair where luxurious locks had once grown."

[SinisterDeath]

8 hours ago, TheMountain said:

One thing to be careful of... if you want to stay on the sub, do not comment, join, or post on r/WhiteCloaks (haters of the show),

From what I understand, r/WhiteCloaks goes beyond just hating the show. It's basically one step removed from Parlor & QAnon. ? 

[templar7]

I was skeptical to the point of serious concern myself... on many points leading up to the premiere. 

I for one absolutely love the show in almost every way!

The nitpicking by fellow readers, for the most part, is simply a lack of understanding of the medium of film and the challenges involved in adapting books to screen... most of the changes so far are more than logical when you realize that, to be successful, the story needs to be understood by millions of people who dont share our detailed knowledge of the books. For example: if Rand was known to be the Dragon from the outset, there would be an automatic lack of importance of the other cast. making it mysterious helps the narrative by generating more overall character interest. Or if Lan was written as in the books, no inner monologue would bring him off like wooden meathead.

I can go on, but I digress...

 

I began these books more than 25 years ago, and after at least 6 full rereads, consider myself a hardcore book fan. Having also had both personal and public converse with Robert Jordan himself, I'm confident he would love the show as much as I do. Is it perfect? No. but its pretty damn good!

[templar7]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

we will never have the proof that a closer adaptation would have been better, because we will not have any. 

Give me 2 examples of a "closer adaptation" that would improve the show so far?

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Still, while it might be reasonable to say that the writers followed  a logic in the change, it is as reasonable to dislike such changes and think that, always using logic, the show could have followed more faithfully the  source material and have a better show.

 

yes, absolutely. but there is a huge difference between "those changes make no sense", "i don't like those changes", and "i understand exactly why they made those changes, and they are a bad choice because of X, Y and Z".

The first is an ignorant passing judgment on stuff he does not know. makes one look bad.

the third is an informed opinion. One expressing it shows deep understanding of storytelling (provided the motivations offered are sound, of course). Critics are expected to come up with those.

The second is a personal opinion, and sidesteps the complicated stuff. A casual viewer or a child could express that without fear of rebuke, because it's only a matter of their tastes.

[fra85uk]

18 minutes ago, templar7 said:

Give me 2 examples of a "closer adaptation" that would improve the show so far?

 

Completely erase ep. 4-6 and follow the actual book plot instead of doing fan-fiction? This is my humble opinion of course.

 

It's plenty online of people discussing how 8 episodes could fit the entire EoTW plot and I am not in the mood for wall-posts but not playing the entire season with "who the Dragon (he/she/it/they) is (are)" is on top of my list of what I would change. At almost the same level, I would say: trust the characters from the book and don't completely change their background/behaviour...what they did to Mat is beyond belief.

 

[fra85uk]

11 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, absolutely. but there is a huge difference between "those changes make no sense", "i don't like those changes", and "i understand exactly why they made those changes, and they are a bad choice because of X, Y and Z".

The first is an ignorant passing judgment on stuff he does not know. makes one look bad.

the third is an informed opinion. One expressing it shows deep understanding of storytelling (provided the motivations offered are sound, of course). Critics are expected to come up with those.

The second is a personal opinion, and sidesteps the complicated stuff. A casual viewer or a child could express that without fear of rebuke, because it's only a matter of their tastes.

 

Most of the critics are pinpointing why the changes are a bad choice.

[Pandemonium]

episode 7 is the critical episode.  really excited to see if this gives the conviction that this is truly a good show.  still pretty excited to see it tomorrow.  I said the same thing about episode 6, and that was just ok for me.  but I think the action is episode 7 is definitely needed right now.  

[templar7]

20 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

Completely erase ep. 4-6 and follow the actual book plot instead of doing fan-fiction? This is my humble opinion of course.

On this point, I dont see how the actual plot is any different at all. Its condensed and rearranged and certainly added to, but the resulting position is pretty much the same. It also established Nynaeve's power, her thing with Lan, the effects of the bond and Logain's storyline inside three episodes.

 

30 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

"who the Dragon (he/she/it/they) is (are)" is on top of my list of what I would change.

I get your point on this one, but its just a necessary adjustment to add more character engagement in the absence of internal dialogue for those who haven't read the books.

 

35 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

trust the characters from the book and don't completely change their background/behaviour...what they did to Mat is beyond belief.

I struggled with this one too, and I still do to some extent. I dont think they wanted Mat as plucky as he is in the books, probably due to the aging up of the characters, and I do think it will serve his future progression into the gambler/reluctant hero more realistically. I'm more unhappy with how his parents are portrayed as opposed to him. But I get where you are coming from.

[ArrylT]

5 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

All those polls are inaccurate, though, because they only get results from people who answer them.

Indeed, two wildly different polls on two different forums show that.

Getting actually relevant statistics data would be virtually impossibile

 

 

Absolutely.    Same with IMDB and RT & so forth - only those that bother to vote show up - much like with elections.   It is simply a data point of people willing to share their opinion.  

[Deviations]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

what they did to Mat is beyond belief.

My favorite character turned into one I can't stand.

[ArrylT]

5 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Considering that WoTshow has already banned lots of users who were criticising the show it is incredible to see that there are some dislikes in the poll.

 

Poll has been cross posted in other forums, so even if a person is banned in one forum they could easily vote in another forum.   

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, Deviations said:

My favorite character turned into one I can't stand.

He was your favorite character midway thru the first book? 

[Skipp]

4 minutes ago, Deviations said:

My favorite character turned into one I can't stand.

Mat was your favourite character in tEofW?  That is surprisingly rare but it can happen.  What attracted you to Mat in tEotW? 

[Wassup]

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Many expressed this opinion. 

What you fail to realize, though, is that you can't just "make some changes" and then expect everything else stay the same. So you remove a scene because of limited screen time - and remember, they had to cut a lot - and that scene provided motivation to a character, so you can't have the caracter progress as before. Or maybe it put a character somewhere, and now you have to move the character in some other way.

Wot is slow, but it doesn't have the kind of filler you can juSt cut.

You call the changes illogic, but there's a rationale behind each of them. You can disagree with how it worked, whether it achieved the intended effect, but if you deny that there is a logic, you lose authority; you just look like you're talking of things you don't understand.

 

Regarding the oft-made comparison with lotr and got, you seem to ignore that those shows also were harshly criticized by "hardcore book fans" for "making unnecessary, illogic changes". 

Same as here

This is an interesting post, for me.  It is trying to look at the changes from a logical sense.  I think this is why some book fans are affected by the changes, the logic is difficult to see at the moment.

 

There was an interesting video linked somewhere, either in this forum or on reddit, where a gentleman was explaining the adaptation to tv in a way to consider some of the changes.  I did not have time to watch the whole video yet.  Briefly, he points out that we have been told there is a plan for eight seasons with eight episodes each.  That would give the production crew 64 "chapters" to tell the Wheel of Time story.  It would be adapting all fourteen books to fit this template.  So, season one is not an adaptation of TEoTW as much as it is an introduction and foundation for the series for all non-book readers.

(Here is a link to the video.)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7ujwHxJx0s

 

With this perspective in mind, I can consider that the producers are playing the long game with some of these changes.  These could be changes that will make sense later in the season or later in the series.  There has to be some logic to it.  We just do not know the why and where it is going.  For some of us, that direction is not clear so it does not make sense, thus it seems illogical.

[Vartija]

I understand the reasoning behind changing Perrin's storyline, such as much of his character coming through in internal musings in the book, but I do wish we could have seen a less traumatized version of him. I just re-watched Episodes 1-3 and it's a bit jarring how depressed he is in episodes 2-3. I don't mean that he should be over killing Laila yet (of course), but the trauma and shock he's going through does make the start of his journey very heavy to follow, and it effects the whole group in the sense that there is very little levity whenever he's around. I really liked the short glimpse of the care-free Perrin that we got in episode 1 and can't help feeling they could have done just fine with a Perrin unburdened by such a traumatic event. Same for Mat's constant worry about his sisters. 

 

I just feel like killing his wife puts such a shadow over Perrin that it is going to be very difficult to shrug it off. Yet I certainly don't want to see him mope all through the show. 

 

[Reader]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

 

Completely erase ep. 4-6 and follow the actual book plot instead of doing fan-fiction? This is my humble opinion of course.

 

I liked episode 4, it could have been better but I didn't mind the change.  One of my favourite GoT episodes is Hardhome, but in the books Jon wasn't there and I'm pretty sure we don't get a PoV of what happened.  I'd compare ep 4 to that type of "it happened but we only heard about it in the books".

 

5 & 6 were weaker, not for the changes that they made, but for how long they spent on them at the expense of other threads we should be following.  Just my opinion.

[LordyLord]

                                              WHAT MAKES A GOOD CHANGE IN ADAPTATION?

The rule of changing a Plotline from the books is that the change must make the Plotline Better not worse in the Tv show

I will use the Nyneave/Morainne/Lan plotline as an example.

In the books, the 1st half of this plotline goes like this:

Nyaneve , Lan and Morainne go on the road, whilst discussing the mission. Morainne reveals to Nyaneave shes a channeler

In the shows,the 2nd half of this plotline goes like this:

Nynaeve and Lan get injured Morainne to Aes sedai camp where we learn more about Aes sedai/Warders. Nyaneve and Lan bond. Logain is expanded. A battle between Logain/Dragonsworn and Aes sedai erupt. We see Nyneave save the day spectacularly and Logain gentled

Analysing both takes, The Show was SUPERIOR.

The Shows version of the plotline is more epic,moreworldbuilding and fleshes out the characters deeper. This plotline is a big reason why Episode 4 is the Fans favourite. Because this was Plot change done right

Now lets take an example of Plot Change done wrong

In the books, the 2nd half of this plotline goes like this:

Nyaneave , Lan and Morainne launch a daring rescue of Egwene and Perrin.We get Perrin's wolves powers,Lan swordsmanship, Morainne channeling and the reunion of the two parties.

In the show, the 2nd half of this plotline goes like this:
Nyaneve , Lan and Morainne go to White tower. Nynaeve and Lan try to help Stepin through his loss. Stepin commits suicide.

If you compare the 2 versions, The Books version is SUPERIOR. The Books version has our main characters going on a daring awesome rescue and is overall more epic than what we get in the Show.This is a big reason the Plot change involving Stepin is a BAD change.

 

FINAL THOUGHTS

The show is 50% good plot changes, and 50% bad changes. Gives a mixed experience

Edited December 15, 2021 by LordyLord

[Masha]

1 hour ago, LordyLord said:

                                              WHAT MAKES A GOOD CHANGE IN ADAPTATION?

The rule of changing a Plotline from the books is that the change must make the Plotline Better not worse in the Tv show

I will use the Nyneave/Morainne/Lan plotline as an example.

In the books, the 1st half of this plotline goes like this:

Nyaneve , Lan and Morainne go on the road, whilst discussing the mission. Morainne reveals to Nyaneave shes a channeler

In the shows,the 2nd half of this plotline goes like this:

Nynaeve and Lan get injured Morainne to Aes sedai camp where we learn more about Aes sedai/Warders. Nyaneve and Lan bond. Logain is expanded. A battle between Logain/Dragonsworn and Aes sedai erupt. We see Nyneave save the day spectacularly and Logain gentled

Analysing both takes, The Show was SUPERIOR.

The Shows version of the plotline is more epic,moreworldbuilding and fleshes out the characters deeper. This plotline is a big reason why Episode 4 is the Fans favourite. Because this was Plot change done right

Now lets take an example of Plot Change done wrong

In the books, the 2nd half of this plotline goes like this:

Nyaneave , Lan and Morainne launch a daring rescue of Egwene and Perrin.We get Perrin's wolves powers,Lan swordsmanship, Morainne channeling and the reunion of the two parties.

In the show, the 2nd half of this plotline goes like this:
Nyaneve , Lan and Morainne go to White tower. Nynaeve and Lan try to help Stepin through his loss. Stepin commits suicide.

If you compare the 2 versions, The Books version is SUPERIOR. The Books version has our main characters going on a daring awesome rescue and is overall more epic than what we get in the Show.This is a big reason the Plot change involving Stepin is a BAD change.

 

FINAL THOUGHTS

The show is 50% good plot changes, and 50% bad changes. Gives a mixed experience

My personal opinion, they should have removed Stepan suicide/Tower subplot and just had him go from calm warrior trying to keep casualties to minimum to raging maniac,  upon Kerene's death, who run into swords and died trying to kill as many as he could. And I would have thrown in one of Alanna's warders as a casualty and have her deal with his loss in the next episode to explain Warder bond and a loss of it on both Warders and Aes Sedai. Remove Lan wailing scene!!!

[TheChief]

FWIW I watched a great Youtube video the other day that explains how TV adaption is done. It is specific to the Wheel of Time. It explains what the writers are likely doing, and why they are making certain decisions. It ends on a note of "you may disagree, but this is the rationale". For anyone either okay with / upset about the changes, it's informative. I really enjoyed learning about this process myself.

 

The channel is "A Critical Dragon" and the vid is called "The Wheel of Time TV adaption".

[TheDreadReader]

2 hours ago, LordyLord said:

If you compare the 2 versions, The Books version is SUPERIOR. The Books version has our main characters going on a daring awesome rescue and is overall more epic than what we get in the Show.This is a big reason the Plot change involving Stepin is a BAD change.

 

FINAL THOUGHTS

The show is 50% good plot changes, and 50% bad changes. Gives a mixed experience

 

Alternative take.   Egwene and Perrin find the means to rescue themselves.   That increases the use of active agency for their characters and reduces the number of times that Egwene functions as a damsel-in-distress in need of rescue.

 

 

 

[LordyLord]

55 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Alternative take.   Egwene and Perrin find the means to rescue themselves.   That increases the use of active agency for their characters and reduces the number of times that Egwene functions as a damsel-in-distress in need of rescue.

 

 

 

Thats an enhancement to the Egwene/Perrin plotline, that I agree

 

Its not an enahancement to the Nyaneve/Lan/Morainne plotline.

 

If Nynave, Lan and Morainne didnt get to do the Whitecloak rescue, thn the plot needed  them to do someting as equally epic and more importantly meaningful to plot of the Season itself

[templar7]

4 hours ago, Masha said:

The rule of changing a Plotline from the books is that the change must make the Plotline Better not worse in the Tv show

The changing of of anything is NOT done to make the plot better. lol.

It's done to make the story work in a totally different medium without any prior knowledge of the books. A film school drop out could tell you this. This obsession and hatred over the changes from book to screen is ridiculous. Even if it did work, why would you want the exact same, page for page copy? I love not knowing what may happen next! Its like getting to experience it for the first time all over again.

4 hours ago, Masha said:

My personal opinion, they should have removed Stepan suicide/Tower subplot and just had him go from calm warrior trying to keep casualties to minimum to raging maniac,  upon Kerene's death, who run into swords and died trying to kill as many as he could. And I would have thrown in one of Alanna's warders as a casualty and have her deal with his loss in the next episode to explain Warder bond and a loss of it on both Warders and Aes Sedai. Remove Lan wailing scene!!

This one here is a great example: Having Stepin just go berserk might make sense to us readers who have 1000s of pages of detail under our belts, sure. But to a newbie, this would only make Warders come off as automaton savages. books of this depth cannot be translated exactly alike from page to screen.