WoT Premier - Read At Your Own Risk!

[Skipp]

8 minutes ago, jeffreycwagner said:

Yeah, I have read almost everything on here and I am not buying it - at least in writing so I guess I just wait to "see".  I was hoping it was false as in my mind it seems character breaking, as in they are still called "Mat" and "Perrin" but they no longer have any relation to those of the books.

 

This is probably worse than the possibility of a female dragon, which I know has also been beaten to death - I will most likely have to pretend the additions to their respective families do not exist, but, again, it will be a wait and see. . . .

 

Care to expand on why these are character breaking for you?  I am genuinely curious.

[DaddyFinn]

19 hours ago, Water and shade said:

Question to all of those who went to premier i dont put much stock into the rumors surrounding a different dragon. I dont really even care about saidin and saidar changes that much but from the first few episodes did you get the feel that the choice of dragon would change. I think that would be the only real dealbreaker for me. That character is one of the best characters and arks ever in any medium. I really like the casting i just worry if they change that fact or if the actor cant pull off the more mature version of that character that we get in the later books. Cheers and thanks! 

Rafe confirmed in an interview couple of weeks back that "those who have read the books know who the dragon is".

[Deadsy]

I saw the new clip with Moiraine and Nynaeve (and had prev read it in a leak), and I’m wondering if the wisdom really was turned away for that reason. That sounds either like a lie by that wisdom or an omission by the White Tower. Or bad writing. Because we know Siuan’s origins and we know those origins are in the show. It doesn’t match even the show version to turn away a poor person. I wonder if the wisdom was just a weak channeler. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Deadsy

[jeffreycwagner]

Skipp - Character breaking may be too strong - character changing.  If Perrin has a wife, he is no longer the person we meet, if he kills her or she dies, that is a devastation that fundamentally changes everything about, about meeting Faile, getting married, etc, etc.  I am not sure how his master work scene with him working in the forge even works - maybe it is the same, but somehow a widowed man doing that does not seem "right" or nearly as impactful and that was one of my favorite chapters.  I don't know, maybe he is married but not really invested with his wife, so she dies and he just goes on this grand adventure, or maybe that becomes his motive for leaving - he can not stand the place any longer and does not want to be reminded of it.  Thus, his return to protect it is now changed and in my mind ruined.  It just so monumentally different and again, not reflective of the core of his character.

 

For Mat, children?  How does he go off with this rascally attitude?  Are they with him?  He just up and leaves?  How I can not root for him at all.  I want him to go back home and care for his children.  His whole attitude and emotional state have to be completely and fundamentally changed.  Or again, maybe kids are just accidents that happened to him and he is ready to be done with them, like much of our modern society and he wants to be out and about having fun and not care about or live up to his responsibility.  In either case his motives and actions are changed or I can only despise him for abandoning his family.

 

Maybe they do it well and the changes are OK, or they are just rarely mentioned and we can just ignore them and pretend we still have Perrin and Mat from the books, I can not see how this works - I think it changes too much, but am hoping I can get past the damage or just pretend and still enjoy the show.  Color me skeptical!

 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by jeffreycwagner

[Deadsy]

8 minutes ago, jeffreycwagner said:

Skipp - Character breaking may be too strong - character changing.  If Perrin has a wife, he is no longer the person we meet, if he kills her or she dies, that is a devastation that fundamentally changes everything about, about meeting Faile, getting married, etc, etc.  I am not sure how his master work scene with him working in the forge even works - maybe it is the same, but somehow a widowed man doing that does not seem "right" or nearly as impactful and that was one of my favorite chapters.  I don't know, maybe he is married but not really invested with his wife, so she dies and he just goes on this grand adventure, or maybe that becomes his motive for leaving - he can not stand the place any longer and does not want to be reminded of it.  Thus, his return to protect it is now changed and in my mind ruined.  It just so monumentally different and again, not reflective of the core of his character.

 

For Mat, children?  How does he go off with this rascally attitude?  Are they with him?  He just up and leaves?  How I can not root for him at all.  I want him to go back home and care for his children.  His whole attitude and emotional state have to be completely and fundamentally changed.  Or again, maybe kids are just accidents that happened to him and he is ready to be done with them, like much of our modern society and he wants to be out and about having fun and not care about or live up to his responsibility.  In either case his motives and actions are changed or I can only despise him for abandoning his family.

 

Maybe they do it well and the changes are OK, or they are just rarely mentioned and we can just ignore them and pretend we still have Perrin and Mat from the books, I can not see how this works - I think it changes too much, but am hoping I can get past the damage or just pretend and still enjoy the show.  Color me skeptical!

 

 

 

 

 

What children?

[DaddyFinn]

Just now, Deadsy said:

 

 

What children?

Some review said that Mat is a single father. Please say that's not true

[Skipp]

Yeah that review was not good, Matt has siblings that he takes care of because of the changes to his parents in the show.

[Elder_Haman]

10 minutes ago, jeffreycwagner said:

It just so monumentally different and again, not reflective of the core of his character.

Having a wife or fiancée doesn't really change the core of someone's character.

Spoiler

I believe the intent is to use that person's death as a more accessible way of putting Perrin's emotion and thought process on the screen. Whether they can pay that off or not will be the question.

 

12 minutes ago, jeffreycwagner said:

that is a devastation that fundamentally changes everything about, about meeting Faile, getting married, etc, etc.  I am not sure how his master work scene with him working in the forge even works - maybe it is the same, but somehow a widowed man doing that does not seem "right" or nearly as impactful and that was one of my favorite chapters.

How does being widowed change his motivations when he meets Faile? It makes what's going on in his head potentially more relatable - keeps her at arm's length because of his fear of getting close and hurting her. After he succumbs to the attraction, he becomes irrationally overprotective for the same reasons. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with the forge scene.

 

14 minutes ago, jeffreycwagner said:

he can not stand the place any longer and does not want to be reminded of it.  Thus, his return to protect it is now changed and in my mind ruined.

And why would this be? The fact that Emond's Field is where bad things happened doesn't mean that he wouldn't still love it and want to protect it. It's his home, it's his past. 

 

15 minutes ago, jeffreycwagner said:

For Mat, children?

This is wrong -

Spoiler

Mat doesn't have children in the show. He has younger sisters.

 

16 minutes ago, jeffreycwagner said:

In either case his motives and actions are changed or I can only despise him for abandoning his family.

Maybe you're meant to. Or maybe you're meant to anguish with him over the decision. 

[TheMountain]

6 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Some review said that Mat is a single father. Please say that's not true

Unless I missed something major in my viewing, it's not true. The kids are his younger siblings. 

[jeffreycwagner]

Elder Haman, I have appreciated your optimism over the past few weeks and appreciate the counter point(s), but I just do not see how it works, at least for me.  Skipp asked why I felt that way and I shared. 

 

I will wait and see - glad to here the reviewer was wrong about Mat - still not a fan of the changes to Mat's background, but not as character breaking.

 

*Unrelated, but this demonstrates the level of attention and care some reviewers take - I guess, as has been noted, reviewers are not that trustworthy . . .

Edited November 17, 2021 by jeffreycwagner

[DaddyFinn]

2 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

Unless I missed something major in my viewing, it's not true. The kids are his younger siblings. 

I wouldn't be surprised if those BAD critics didn't pay attention at all and just made assumptions..

[Katherine]

12 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I wouldn't be surprised if those BAD critics didn't pay attention at all and just made assumptions..

So there is that..... 

 

But what if the writing is so bad that it didn't make it clear? EIther the journalist did a terrible job of watching or the writers did a bad job of writing...... 

 

 

[Katherine]

14 minutes ago, jeffreycwagner said:

Elder Haman, I have appreciated your optimism over the past few weeks and appreciate the counter point(s), but I just do not see how it works, at least for me.  Skipp asked why I felt that way and I shared. 

 

I will wait and see - glad to here the reviewer was wrong about Mat - still not a fan of the changes to Mat's background, but not as character breaking.

 

*Unrelated, but this demonstrates the level of attention and care some reviewers take - I guess, as has been noted, reviewers are not that trustworthy . . .

 

 

I get what you are saying. I don't like it either, but my husband, who is rereading EoTW (been two years since I read it) made the point that this change would help people understands Mat's obsession with treasure and money. In the books he came off as a young brat.... but honestly it was a thin reason and it never really made sense why HE was obsessed with treasure and stole the knife while the rest of the boys were able to resist. 

 

I felt like this was a good point and made me feel better about the change. Hope it makes you feel better too :).

 

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, Katherine said:

But what if the writing is so bad that it didn't make it clear? EIther the journalist did a terrible job of watching or the writers did a bad job of writing...... 

That's a possibility. I can't imagine the writers being so bad so I will assume the critic is at fault here. We'll see ourselves SO SOOOOON! ?

[Agitel]

8 minutes ago, Katherine said:

So there is that..... 

 

But what if the writing is so bad that it didn't make it clear? EIther the journalist did a terrible job of watching or the writers did a bad job of writing...... 

 

 

 

All I can say is let's WAFO.

[Deadsy]

Hopefully the pacting and characterization issues people are commenting on will go away in season 2 after they’re done with the who’s the dragon mystery and trying to introduce the rules of the world. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Deadsy

[CaddySedai]

1 hour ago, jeffreycwagner said:

For Mat, children?  How does he go off with this rascally attitude? 

 

 

They aren't HIS kids. They are family. 

 

Even if they were its established as in the books the Trolloc horde is after them. Leaving EF protects the survivors. How did Rand leave his dad - who was injured. Same reason. Staying = death for you and them.

 

Spoiler Below if you WANT the shimmy.

 

Spoiler

Matt is a member of a large family, He has two younger siblings. He's basically their father figure because their actual parents (Mother and Father) are drunkards and his father even actively hits on other women around his wife. To the point she has attempted to attack him.

 

Matt's biggest fear is that he will become just like his father. 

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by CaddySedai

[Sabio]

I think RJ's wife was part of this, I'm not sure she would sign off on something so huge as a new dragon.  I know they are just doing things for drama because in the book Moiraine knew she was looking for a male.  In Book two when they described Giara's foretelling in front of Moiraine  she said "He is born again, I feel him"  So there was no doubt, so my guess is the series is just trying to keep suspense going.

[themann1086]

Just to follow up on the above re: Mat, it is super super clear in the episode what the family relationships are.

 

Spoiler

Mat refers to his mom as his mom, and when he brings her back to the house and she falls over drunk, his sisters ask "is mom sick again?" He also asks both his parents, clearly identified as such, "where are the girls" when they're missing on Winternight

I would be mortified if I made that sort of error in a professional capacity

[CaddySedai]

8 minutes ago, themann1086 said:

Just to follow up on the above re: Mat, it is super super clear in the episode what the family relationships are.

 

  Hide contents

Mat refers to his mom as his mom, and when he brings her back to the house and she falls over drunk, his sisters ask "is mom sick again?" He also asks both his parents, clearly identified as such, "where are the girls" when they're missing on Winternight

I would be mortified if I made that sort of error in a professional capacity

 

And yet...they made just that exact error ?

[Beidomon]

3 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Rafe confirmed in an interview couple of weeks back that "those who have read the books know who the dragon is".

The DR in the books will he the DR in the show. That isn’t the problem. The problem is that they changed the lore of the books to “update it for modern sensibilities” to allow for the possibility that the DR could be female - which has a LOT of ripples. It was a dumb move, completely unnecessary, and detrimental to the story. 

[RextheDog]

3 hours ago, Deadsy said:

I saw the new clip with Moiraine and Nynaeve (and had prev read it in a leak), and I’m wondering if the wisdom really was turned away for that reason. That sounds either like a lie by that wisdom or an omission by the White Tower. Or bad writing. Because we know Siuan’s origins and we know those origins are in the show. It doesn’t match even the show version to turn away a poor person. I wonder if the wisdom was just a weak channeler. 

 

isnt it becuase she would be too old.

 

im sure the book explains this, as in, some are too old to help. its just illustrating this, and giving Nyn further depth for her distrust of the AS

[RextheDog]

2 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

The DR in the books will he the DR in the show. That isn’t the problem. The problem is that they changed the lore of the books to “update it for modern sensibilities” to allow for the possibility that the DR could be female - which has a LOT of ripples. It was a dumb move, completely unnecessary, and detrimental to the story. 

 

im trying to get away from this kind of analysis, im not telling you to 'get over it' , just that i can....its a non issue to me, i get the implications, but they're overstated in my mind. why does the savior of the world HAVE to wield Saiden and be a male? we are talking about previous turnings. i mean, previous turnings had planes in them....thats a bigger stretch to me, that dumped on the world more than a dragon being a female to me.

 

note, in this story, it HAS to be Rand, its basically the story....rand is the DR, if its not him then its not even the WOT

 

Jordan himself painted a world that contradicted itself at times....

 

i mean, even in the first few chapters i found myself wondering why the almighty dark one decided it was best to stop aerial recon via the draghtar.... minor inconsistencies are bound to happen.

 

 

[Beidomon]

4 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

The "who is the Dragon" thing is simpler than that. It's a narrative hook. Despite Rand's role as the Dragon, this is going to be an ensemble show. All of the characters matter and you need viewers to get invested in all of them right away.

 

So you make them pay attention to every one of them using "who is the Dragon" as a narrative tool. It doesn't matter who actually ends up being the Dragon (spoiler: it's Rand), because by structuring the plot around that question forced the audience to consider each character as a "suspect". The payoff comes later as you slow down the pace and find that people understand what everyone has been through up to that point.

 

So much of the first book is told from Rand's POV that you sort of lose track of the other characters. The tv show can't just shelve people for multiple episodes at a time though. They have to spend time with all of them and the "mystery" gives people a reason to care in the beginning.

The issue is how long they plan to keep this “mystery” going. Because the longer they plan to draw out the reveal, the more they have to change. It’s frustrating to me because the lore of the books set up a wonderful dichotomy and conflict which is watered down by this change. And TEOTW provides just the right amount of content for a wonderful first season, but the screenwriters always think they’re smarter. And they usually aren’t. 

[Beidomon]

23 minutes ago, RextheDog said:

 

im trying to get away from this kind of analysis, im not telling you to 'get over it' , just that i can....its a non issue to me, i get the implications, but they're overstated in my mind. why does the savior of the world HAVE to wield Saiden and be a male? we are talking about previous turnings. i mean, previous turnings had planes in them....thats a bigger stretch to me, that dumped on the world more than a dragon being a female to me.

 

note, in this story, it HAS to be Rand, its basically the story....rand is the DR, if its not him then its not even the WOT

 

Jordan himself painted a world that contradicted itself at times....

 

i mean, even in the first few chapters i found myself wondering why the almighty dark one decided it was best to stop aerial recon via the draghtar.... minor inconsistencies are bound to happen.

 

 

Why does the DR “have” to wield saidin and be male? Jordan didn’t “have” to do anything, but it makes for a richer conflict and better story - which is why Jordan wrote it that way. The DR is by necessity going to have to wield the power tainted by the actions of the last Dragon - risking madness. The Red Ajah are hunting down men who can channel because it’s important, but it’s also crazy because they risk gentling the DR. That risk is less, and less crazy, if the DR can be a woman. It potentially even makes sense in a way - “even if we kill the male DR, we’ll just keep doing it until the Pattern spins us out a girl!” Not to mention the fact that the White Tower probably would have collapsed any number of times due to female Aes Sedai claiming to be the DR.

 

It’s difficult to set that stupidity aside. I’m going to try. I want to enjoy the show. But damn this move above all others really crossed the line for me. We don’t even know at this point that the show is going to delve into Saidin / Saidar, do we?

Edited November 17, 2021 by Beidomon