Rumor from London Comic-Con

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

You just don't seem to understand that a sentence can have more than one interpretation.

 

Well, we're not going to have a meeting of minds. Fair enough.

I tell you what, if that sentence turns out to be a misdirection, I will make a point of coming back and saying you were right and I am an idiot. ?

[Katherine]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Which characters do you feel have been changed and ruined to fit a narrative? (Other than the race of the actor. My feeling about the casting is that I will not prejudge an actor's performance based on whether or not that actor has a skin tone that matches my head canon. I also do not believe that the supposed homogeneity of the Two Rivers is matters to the overall story and do not believe that casting people of different skin tones makes a dramatic change.)

Sorry I was referring to other movies/shows in the past. Always a danger when watching a book to movie adaptation. 

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Katherine said:

Sorry I was referring to other movies/shows in the past. Always a danger when watching a book to movie adaptation. 

 

 

Oh, gotcha. Fair enough.

I'm just in the camp of - "what I've seen so far makes me think it's going to be okay" people. 

[Katherine]

16 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

17 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

Re-read the sentence.  It's not two sentences.

one person can stand against him and it's one of  the five of you.

There is only one thing/person referenced in this sentence.

 

You are at the stage where you are reaching FAR further than anyone who simply concludes that Rafe has changed the lore to make the DR either male or female.

She doesn't say "only one person can stand against him." You just don't seem to understand that a sentence can have more than one interpretation.

 

 

I am laughing because everyone in Tar Valon must go through this every time an Aes Sedai speaks. 

[king of nowhere]

 

2 hours ago, Maximillion said:

 

We'll agree to disagree.

I think it's crystal clear that the 5 are being told any one of them could be the DR.

Morraine's words make no sense at all - it's not trickery it would be stupidity - if the lore of the land, in the series, was that the DR was a male. The only way it makes sense is if the two women in the group of five actually believe they could be the DR. 

 

 

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

by the way, "one of you can stand against the DO" is more or less what moiraine actually says to the party in the book.

she never said "one of you is the dragon". she was always very vague in "the DO fears one of you".

ok, genre savy readers could figure out rand was the dragon from the beginning.. but moiraine is being more faithful to the book than we give her credit for

 

you did not reply to this.

in the books moiraine said more or less the same thing, and nobody of the EF thought she was referencing the dragon.

your assumptions are unfounded

[Wassup]

On 10/24/2021 at 8:24 AM, Katherine said:

 

... Of all the boys, Perrin's abilities are the most earned. However, it would matter a lot to me if they went down this path. Egwene's story is phenomenal.... she survives slavery, torture, extreme training.... the list goes on..... all to end up being one of the most powerful characters in the book. Every accomplishment was earned. COMPLETELY  earned. ...

 

 

It depends a bit on what you consider earned.  Mat almost died early in the series and actually did die at one point.  The situations contributed to his development of skills and was a hefty price to pay.  His fight to survive the dagger may not have been as noticeable in the prose as the torture/slavery.  However, it is like a person surviving a severe terminal illness. 

 

12 hours ago, Maximillion said:

Not Morraine - she fails the logic test in the series - IF the DR can only be a man in the lore in the series.?

 

That is why I found Mat's 'response' to Morraine's line to be comical. It was like 'come again???'  I imagined him putting his arm around Morraine's shoulder and taking her to one side, saying ' Now look, Morraine, you might not know this... I know you're a great Aes Sedai and all... but it's pretty common knowledge that the DR will be a man.. how about you stop winding up Egwene and Nyneave, ok?'.

 

 

 

I just want to point out that we do not know this is Mat's response to Moiraine's line.  Just like people thought Lan's boots were actually Moiraine's in the teaser.  You are not necessarily shown things in the proper order or from the same scene.

 

The Aes Sedai are all about semantics with getting around lies.  Her statement of one of you five, without specifically mentioning the DR, is true.  She would not be able to say Egwene, you could be the DR unless they changed something.  So, I am not concerned with this. 

 

It seems to me she found two young women with the spark born in them.  These women have the potential to be the strongest Aes Sedai in the tower when fully trained.  She wants them in the tower and needs them to stand against the DO.  This compels her to include them.

 

This also gives Egwene a better reason for leaving.  In the books, we do not really get a sense of the devastation Winternight had on EF.  We will see it in the show.  If the show follows the book it would be like this:

Hey Egwene, half your village was just massacred and burned down by monsters you thought were only in the stories.  What are you going to do now?  Egwene, "I am going to Disney World Tar Valon for adventure!"

 

Sorry for the length of this.  Just one more idea I wanted to share.  I do not have problems with Moiraine's statement.  However, I would have a problem if they show Ba'alzamon in the dreams with the three figures of the boys as he tries to figure out who is who and he has five figures instead.  That would be proof that there is some significant change.  I do not even know if they would incorporate the figures, though.  I would like to see it to build suspense showing the progress the DO  is making.

[Maximillion]

^ yes, I am aware that Mat's 'response' might not be related to Morraines words. I just found it funny from the trailer.

 

I get the 'misdirection' and 'not technically a lie' angle.

But for any misdirection to work, the people of EF would have to have no knowledge of the lore that the DR is male.

 

[MasterAblar]

The idea that any of them could be the DR is probably so far removed from their minds that what Moiraine said wouldn't bother them at all in that regard. They're basically from the middle of nowhere and to them the dragon and the dragon reborn are pretty much legends that half the time are evil anyway. I guarantee you none of them at that point are thinking of the possibility of one of them being the DR.

[Rose]

I just want to point out that in the early Emonds Field chapters Mat and Rand have an argument that basically demonstrates they know next to nothing about Aes Sedai and the Dragon and are confused as to who broke the world and the male/female difference. I only have the audiobooks otherwise I'd screenshot it. But it's not a reach to think they might not know the DR has to for sure be a male channeler. There have already been false dragons who couldn't channel and people flocked to them anyway. So clearly not everyone knows everything that's obvious to us. And even as book readers we only come to understand the difference between Saidin and Saidar and the taint and all of that when Moiraine explains it to Egwene on the road and Rand is eavesdropping. Moiraine wouldn't have to explain if Egwene already knew, and readers are as confused about it all as the characters until that point. So it makes sense they'd play up a similar confusion to their advantage in the show, only to clear it up a couple of episodes in.

 

ETA: well I got the ebook free sample just for this lol

 

Exhibit A: They make no distinction between male and female Aes Sedai as to who caused the Breaking.

 

Exhibit B: The Dragon is evil incarnate in their minds, basically equivalent to the Dark One. They have no idea who the Dragon was/will be.

 

Exhibit C- They think all Aes Sedai are Darkfriends because they caused the Breaking. Again, no male/female distinction, and no knowledge of the taint or the madness. They think the Aes Sedai who broke the world were evil rather than insane. 

 

 

These country bumpkins don't know anything. They have zero awareness of the two halves of the One Power or the taint. They DON'T KNOW the lore. 

 

So no, they're not going to wonder why Moiraine is including the women in the group of people the Dark One is afraid of (or however it ends up being phrased in dodgy Aes Sedai speak). They have no frame of reference to even begin to question it. And I do not for one second doubt that Moiraine would take full advantage of that.

 

Sidenote : I love that Mat is the one who questions the lore and doesn't believe Aes Sedai and the Dragon are automatically bad here. Kind of ironic and also kind of perfect.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Rose

[JaimAybara]

-Tam telling the story of the Dragon-

“The light had a leader that would never give up, a man called Lews Therin Telamon. The Dragon.”

 

pg. 29

 

“Egwene was too busy goggling to see who…The Dragon was the man who had destroyed everything…she did not know much about the Breaking of the World—well , almost nothing, in truth—but everybody knew that much.”

 

pg. 29

 

“Rand could Remember every tale he had heard about the men who had named themselves the Dragon Reborn, and if they had all proven themselves false Dragons by dying or disappearing without fulfilling any of the prophecies, what they had done was bad enough.” 
 

pg. 74 

 

Cenn to Padan Fain, “what have you heard? Eh? Is this man a false Dragon?”

 

pg. 75 

 

“Ewin Finngar burst out. He’ll go mad and die! In the stories, men who channel the Power always go mad, and then waste away and die. Only women can touch it. Doesn’t he know that?”

 

(If Ewin knows this I think it’s safe to say almost everyone does.)

 

pg. 75

 

On pages 77-78 the boys argue over whether or not the Dragon would save or destroy the world, but they never insinuate or argue over him not being a man. 
 

All I’m saying is there are a lot of townsfolk that have knowledge of who and what the Dragon was. Even silver penny Ewin. Even Cenn Buie knows the stories. He just doesn’t like them. 
 

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by JaimAybara

[MasterAblar]

Moiraine never mentions the Dragon Reborn. I'd be a massive leap of logic for your average country bumpkin to go from "one of you is important against the dark one" to "one of you is the dragon reborn, the prophesized rebirth of a madman who saved and destoryed the world and who will do so once again". 

 

Even when faced with the knowledge that he can channel Rand still didn't put that together with his importance against the Dark One to wonder if he was the Dragon Reborn. Moiraine and Siuan had to literally throw it in his face with ironclad proof. And even then it took him a long time to come to terms with it.

[MasterAblar]

Also consider the context that their village has just been viciously attacked and partially burned down by monsters of legend. They're shellshocked and certainly won't have the clarity of thought to piece together the oulandish things Moraine is throwing at them to come to the conclusion that one of them is the Dragon Reborn.

[Rose]

 

 

30 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

All I’m saying is there are a lot of townsfolk that have knowledge of who and what the Dragon was. Even silver penny Ewin. Even Cenn Buie knows the stories. He just doesn’t like them. 

 

And all I'm saying is there's a lot of confusion, misinformation and ignorance going around. People who are confused are easily manipulated because they don't have a firm knowledge base to ground them. If Moiraine wanted to use that to her advantage to tow the girls along, she could, and the kids wouldn't question her very far.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Rose

[JaimAybara]

That is more than fair. I think when it comes to the sex debate though, I would compare it to Jesus or Muhammad. Even people who aren’t particularly religious know they were men thousands of years ago. I think it would be very similar here. They may not know the ins and outs of prophecy, or that she selected them because she thought they were Reborn, or that the Aes Sedai order used to have men in it. But all of them likely know The Dragon was male, and that all the false ones that followed were too, and so on.

[TheMountain]

I think it's important to remember that the rumor from the previewed scenes at London MCM is that Moraine explicitly says something along the lines of "one of the four of you is the Dragon Reborn."

 

The scene we see in the trailer was dubbed.

 

If the actual scene refers to "the Dark One wants one of you" instead of mentioning the DR, then I have no problem with it.

Edited October 30, 2021 by TheMountain

[Rose]

 

14 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

I think it's important to remember that the rumor from the previewed scenes at London MCM is that Moraine explicitly says something along the lines of "one of the four of you is the Dragon Reborn."

 

The scene we see in the trailer was dubbed.

 

If that is the exact wording, and she uses it to get the women to come along, then yes, it implies a change from the books where everyone expects the Dragon to be male.

 

I'd be very unimpressed by that choice because they really don't need to play it that way. They could totally go with "the DO wants one of you because you're a threat to him" (which is what she says in the books) without explicitly mentioning the DR. So that exact wording (and it going unquestioned by the characters) would definitely be annoying to me.

 

But it still wouldn't be too much of a reach because there is basis in canon for people being confused and not fully understanding the difference between male and female Aes Sedai. It wouldn't be completely lore breaking if they take it a little further and say people are confused about the DR's gender. It would just mean they've made the Two Rivers people even more ignorant than in the books. Which, again, I would find annoying, because it's unnecessary, and I expect better from them. But it also definitely doesn't mean the entire show is broken or doomed.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Rose

[Rose]

1 hour ago, JaimAybara said:

-Tam telling the story of the Dragon-

“The light had a leader that would never give up, a man called Lews Therin Telamon. The Dragon.”

 

pg. 29

 

“Egwene was too busy goggling to see who…The Dragon was the man who had destroyed everything…she did not know much about the Breaking of the World—well , almost nothing, in truth—but everybody knew that much.”

 

pg. 29

 

“Rand could Remember every tale he had heard about the men who had named themselves the Dragon Reborn, and if they had all proven themselves false Dragons by dying or disappearing without fulfilling any of the prophecies, what they had done was bad enough.” 
 

pg. 74 

 

Cenn to Padan Fain, “what have you heard? Eh? Is this man a false Dragon?”

 

pg. 75 

 

“Ewin Finngar burst out. He’ll go mad and die! In the stories, men who channel the Power always go mad, and then waste away and die. Only women can touch it. Doesn’t he know that?”

 

Going back to this for a sec (sorry lol) because I'm still thinking about it.

 

If we put together my quotes and @JaimAybara's, we can compile a list of what the EF boys + Egwene know/think they know about the lore:

 

1. The Dragon (a man) caused the Breaking.

2. Aes Sedai (all genders) broke the world.

3. Men who channel go mad and die.

 

But here's the thing: they don't connect those dots. They're just isolated pieces of information to them, snippets of stories and tales, not pieces of a puzzle that can be put together to explain a historical event. So they don't consider that maybe the reason the Dragon (a man) caused the Breaking is that he was a male channeler who had gone mad.

 

We know they don't because:

- they blame the current Aes Sedai (who are all female) for the Breaking

- they don't understand why the Dragon and the Aes Sedai who broke the world did it, so they decide it must mean they serve/served the Dark One

 

This proves that they don't understand that the Breaking was caused by male channelers going mad. They know male channelers go mad, and they know the Breaking was caused by a man, but they never put two and two together until it's explained to them. (If memory serves right, the first explanation we see of it is when Moiraine explains Saidin and Saidar to Egwene.)

 

So based on all this, it's not a stretch that they wouldn't realize the DR *has* to be a man. Because they already don't realize that being a man (and therefore going insane) is the reason the DR broke the world.

 

Even knowing the previous Dragon was a man, unless they know about souls and that souls retain their gender through reincarnations (which, why would they?) they would not automatically conclude without the shadow of a doubt that the new Dragon has to be a man too.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Rose

[JaimAybara]

All I can say is the writers thus far with the trailers are slaying it with Aes Sedai verbal Judo. 

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

Moiraine never mentions the Dragon Reborn. I'd be a massive leap of logic for your average country bumpkin to go from "one of you is important against the dark one" to "one of you is the dragon reborn, the prophesized rebirth of a madman who saved and destoryed the world and who will do so once again". 

 

Even when faced with the knowledge that he can channel Rand still didn't put that together with his importance against the Dark One to wonder if he was the Dragon Reborn. Moiraine and Siuan had to literally throw it in his face with ironclad proof. And even then it took him a long time to come to terms with it.

Not important against the dark one - but stand against the dark one.  And who could stand against the dark one other than the dragon?

[MasterAblar]

42 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Not important against the dark one - but stand against the dark one.  And who could stand against the dark one other than the dragon?

 

You really think that distinction is gonna make a difference to them in that moment? They've been tossed into utter chaos and have never dealt with an Aes Sedai before. They're not gonna be weighing her words looking for the exact meaning no matter how crazy it could be.

 

I don't know if they actually end up doing away with the Dragon sould being male and Egwene is actually a potential dragon even if wouldn't actually happen (which really would be insane)  then I'll be quite dissapointed because beyond its utterly pointless to both the story and Egwene's story in particular. It's very hard to tell off just promotional materials so far but they haven't given me the impression of making such boneheaded decisions (although I am definitely giving some strong side eye to the potential changes to Mat's parents and whatever the crap that Perrin mariage stuff is).

 

Also did they age Egwene up to be the same age as the boys? Because if they didn't then its impossible for her to be a potential dragon off her age alone, if Moiraine is going off the information she had in the books.

[DojoToad]

15 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

 

You really think that distinction is gonna make a difference to them in that moment? They've been tossed into utter chaos and have never dealt with an Aes Sedai before. They're not gonna be weighing her words looking for the exact meaning no matter how crazy it could be.

 

The distinction doesn't matter to characters in a TV show - they don't 'know' what we know.  It is a very important distinction to us.  Don't cheapen the argument by changing words/meaning.

 

Seems like an Aes Sedai trick.  ?

Edited October 31, 2021 by DojoToad

[AusLeviathan]

I think a lot of people are really stretching trying to justify how the main marketing push of including Egwene as a possible Dragon is Moiraine just not being clear.

 

Consider that by making this change they have stripped away Egwene's first truly important character moment, her decision to leave the Two Rivers even though she didn't have to, that's not something they'd do just for the purpose of tricking people through marketing. It's clear that Egwene being one of the people the Dark One is after is an important part of season 1.

 

Personally I think they're going to build it up to look like Egwene is the one Moiraine's looking for, maybe even have Moiraine really believe it's her towards the end in an attempt to surprise people unfamiliar with the books.

 

If done right this could be a change that brings some added depth. If Egwene truly believed at one point she was the prophesied savior only for it to turn out to be Rand then that would be a good way to develop both Egwene's falling out with Rand and her willingness to do anything she needs to in order to gain power.

[Tim]

On 10/31/2021 at 6:47 AM, DojoToad said:

Not important against the dark one - but stand against the dark one.  And who could stand against the dark one other than the dragon?

LOL, in the books Rand thought he had literally killed the dark one with saidin and still didn’t think he was the dragon reborn. 

[DojoToad]

3 minutes ago, Tim said:

LOL, in the books Rand thought he had literally killed the dark one with saidin and still didn’t think he was the dragon reborn. 

That was the books, we're talking about the TV show and possible changes from the books.

[Tim]

Yep - my point is that I don’t think saying “one of you can stand against the DO” would be understood by any of EF5 as amounting to a statement that one of them is the DR.