Rumor from London Comic-Con

[TheMountain]

My god. My greatest fear for the show is materializing.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, TheMountain said:

My god. My greatest fear for the show is materializing

Eh... so far? It's one person claiming that this was the wording used in the clips at the London comic con. (Without seeing the video, it could me misremembered)

Even if this is the wording used in the clip, Moiraine saying "One of you 4 is the dragon", doesn't mean they're changing the story, and making Egwene the dragon.

[JenniferL]

I have removed the potential spoiler from your title. Come on. 

[Skipp]

20 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Eh... so far? It's one person claiming that this was the wording used in the clips at the London comic con. (Without seeing the video, it could me misremembered)

Even if this is the wording used in the clip, Moiraine saying "One of you 4 is the dragon", doesn't mean they're changing the story, and making Egwene the dragon.

 

With the release of the Amazon Prime teaser I assumed they were editing the clip to push that idea.  If that turns out be the actual case in the show I won't like it but I suppose it will depend on how they do it.  Does Moiraine say that knowing for sure it isn't Egwene and only words it that way to get her to come along?  Ehhhhh.

 

We'll see I suppose but I won't take it seriously until I see the clip for myself.

[Agitel]

Not to stir the pot... I did see a video just a few minutes ago with Moiraine narrating the purpose of her search. Near the end she says she doesn't know who it is as it quickly flashes between Egwene, Rand, Mat, and Perrin. So there may be some credence to Egwene being one of the people Moiraine is considering.

 

If they do that, and based on comments I've seen by Rafe, they may be de-genderizing souls, such that someone born a man in one life might be woven out and reborn a woman in another life. 

[Skipp]

7 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Not to stir the pot... I did see a video just a few minutes ago with Moiraine narrating the purpose of her search. Near the end she says she doesn't know who it is as it quickly flashes between Egwene, Rand, Mat, and Perrin. So there may be some credence to Egwene being one of the people Moiraine is considering.

 

If they do that, and based on comments I've seen by Rafe, they may be de-genderizing souls, such that someone born a man in one life might be woven out and reborn a woman in another life. 

 

Yeah that is what I was talking about with editing a teaser for marketing purposes.  Kinda how we all assumed it was Moiraines boots in the first teaser trailer when they turned out to be Lan's in the Comic Con clip.

[SinisterDeath]

12 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Near the end she says she doesn't know who it is as it quickly flashes between Egwene, Rand, Mat, and Perrin.

That was probably the Amazon "Moiraine's Quest" video.

She says "Twenty years ago, the last dragon was reborn. We don't know where, or to whom"
This has her looking around town at all the people, then Lan riding on a horse.

Moiraine riding the horse, narating
"What I do know is that my mission is to find them."

Cut to dead animals in the shape of a dragon's tear.
"But we're running out of time. The Dark One is waking."

Cut to Shadar Logoth/Shadows

"His whispers are already in the backs of our minds"
Quickly flash to Perrin, Mat, Rand, and Egwene waking from bad dreams.

That doesn't imply that Egwene could be the Dragon, it implies the DO is "whispering" to people.

 

12 minutes ago, Agitel said:

If they do that, and based on comments I've seen by Rafe, they may be de-genderizing souls, such that someone born a man in one life might be woven out and reborn a woman in another life. 

See, that kind of leap to me is just speculation. (Slippery slope)
There's soo many ways this could play out, but with the base material, even if they change the wording to include Egwene, It's just a wild leap to say their going to completely change it and make Egwene the dragon, or that it's evidence of removing "gendered souls".

No, the big issue that should be asked if she includes Egwene as the Dragon, and If Moiraine knows the dragon HAS to be male, then she lied... If the writers know she knows the dragon is male, and don't think that's a lie, then they don't understand the oaths. Now if Moiraine doesn't know if the dragon has to be male... Then it's not a lie.

 

[Rose]

I thought we already knew they were doing this. They're trying to misdirect. Egwene isn't going to be the Dragon. They just want to sow doubt in the audience's minds. If they put some focus on Egwene in the beginning with her wisdom training or whatever that scene is, it'll work even better to make non-book readers think she's a likely candidate. 

 

It's also not a lie for Moiraine to say "one of you 4 is the Dragon" even if she knows the Dragon is male. It's true that one of them is. She doesn't need to say that it's definitely not Egwene. It's a very Aes Sedai way to go about it. But if they decide to de-gender souls I'm okay with that too.

 

But y'all, relax. Rand is the Dragon. We all know it. They just don't want non-book readers to know it yet.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Rose

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, Rose said:

It's also not a lie for Moiraine to say "one of you 4 is the Dragon" even if she knows the Dragon is male. It's true that one of them is. She doesn't need to say that it's definitely not Egwene

The way I understand their oaths, is even "thinking" about a lie, causes them pain.

If she knows Egwene can't be the dragon, she could say "One of you is the dragon", and that would be truthful, without the implicit lie of knowing one of them can't be the dragon based on what she does know. (Unless she doesn't know the dragon has to be male, in which case, not a lie) ? 

gah, tricksy Aes Sedai.

[JenniferL]

I had a student read the Eye of the World on my recommendation years ago. One day he walked by my desk and whispered “I figured it out. Rand is the Dragon Reborn.” He was so proud of himself for that. Jordan did intend for there to be some amount of misdirection regarding who the Dragon was to start. Whether or not you fell for it depends on how familiar you are with genre tropes. 
 

 

[Rose]

9 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

The way I understand their oaths, is even "thinking" about a lie, causes them pain.

If she knows Egwene can't be the dragon, she could say "One of you is the dragon", and that would be truthful, without the implicit lie of knowing one of them can't be the dragon based on what she does know. (Unless she doesn't know the dragon has to be male, in which case, not a lie) ? 

gah, tricksy Aes Sedai.

 

The way I see it, saying "one of you is the dragon" is the same as saying "the dragon is among you" which isn't a lie. She could stand in front of everyone in the winespring inn and say "one of you is the dragon" to 50+ people and it would still be true if Rand, Mat and Perrin are in the group.

 

But maybe this is just semantics at this point haha

[SinisterDeath]

8 minutes ago, Rose said:

is the same as saying "the dragon is among you"

That's definitely better Aes Sedai wording! ? 

[Agitel]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

The way I understand their oaths, is even "thinking" about a lie, causes them pain.

If she knows Egwene can't be the dragon, she could say "One of you is the dragon", and that would be truthful, without the implicit lie of knowing one of them can't be the dragon based on what she does know. (Unless she doesn't know the dragon has to be male, in which case, not a lie) ? 

gah, tricksy Aes Sedai.

 

I don't believe that is correct on the Oaths. The oaths prevent them from speaking no word that is not true. That doesn't affect thought in any way that I recall. And "one of you four is the dragon" (whether or not she actually says this) does not have a word that isn't true. Aes Sedai tricksiness allows misdirection with such comments, too. "You may call me Alys" is obviously going to mislead people into thinking her name is Alys, and it is no problem.

 

I'll try to source the comments I was alluding to earlier.

[Tim]

Yeah it’s a bit like Verin announcing that Rand’s use of a portal stone is “more recent than mine”, then squarely admitting to Rand in private that that is because she has never used a portal stone ever. As long as the aes sedai can persuade herself that the phrase is literally correct they can say it even if they know it is highly misleading.

[king of nowhere]

even if they make egwene a candidate dragon in moiraine's search - and a ta'veren too -, it changes nothing for the story. moiraine arrives at emond field, takes 4 young people with her, leaves. Rand is eventually revealed the dragon.

if moiraine took egwene because she headbutted her way in, or because she takes a chance to recruit a channeler along the way leading her with false implications ("one of you 4 is the one the dark one is seeking" "I don't know which one" is a perfectly serviceable aes sedai truth, even if moiraine actually knows egwene can't be the one), or because the candidate dragons are 4 and not 3, there's no big difference.

And if egwene is part of rand's ta'veren web or if ta'veren herself, is there even a real difference? things mysteriously go her way often enough already.

 

As long as they don't actually make egwene the actual dragon, which I don't belive for an instant they will do, i can accept this change easily

and hey, if some people who are familiar with the books believe egwene may be the dragon, then the misdirection is really working ?

 

 

[TheDreadReader]

TBH... Each new clip makes me think that the concern about them changing the who the dragon is (or it even be that big of a mystery of who it is) is way overblown.   There is enough of a focus on Rand at beat moments in today's Prime clip that someone could reasonably guess that Rand is the dragon.  He has money shots in a clip about the Dragon Reborn whereas the others really don't.

 

Including Egwene in the number four makes a lot of sense to me.  I was talking about making adjustments to Egwene's early storylines yesterday in another thread and this is the kind of thing that I was thinking of.    But, I think having her be one of the group that Moiraine is planning on taking out of the two rivers really helps the overall dynamics.  Maybe, it is just me, but the original departure always felt like Egwene (and later Nyneave) were more hangers-on to the story.  Potentially including her in the "four" from the start fixes that little problem in my mind and it makes Nyneave's following after her possible apprentice far more justified. 

 

 

[JaimAybara]

I listened to it again and didn’t here, “one of you four,” or “one of you,” I only heard, “there will be one.” So, let’s not get ahead of ourselves. I will say I think being sticklers to Aes Sedai not saying lies is a big deal though. Now, if she does eventually say one of you four it will be a lie if they are sticking to the books because she experienced the foretelling and heard this: 

 

“He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!”

 

 

 

[Tim]

I think making Egwene ta’veren would be the more fundamental necessary follow-on adjustment to making her one of the people the DO is seeking (if it’s confined in series 1 that only the boys are ta’veren, that would suggest the target is one of them and not Egwene).

 

I don’t necessarily have a problem with that shift, although it would undermine somewhat a key contrast in the book - Rand, Mat and Perrin end up influencing people and changing events largely in spite of their efforts to the contrary, whereas Egwene has broadly the same world-changing impact as Perrin or Mat but through sheer determination. 
 

The contrast is perhaps clearest with Perrin, given he doesn’t exhibit as many of the obviously fate-distorting effects as Rand or Mat. In some ways Perrin becoming leader of the Two Rivers and Egwene becoming leader of the White Tower are similar arcs, but with Perrin it’s clearly due at least in part to effects beyond his control and that he would disavow if he could; with Egwene it’s largely planned, often meticulously. 
 

But if the show did want to go down this path, I think it could work, in the sense that these four effectively are the ultimate leaders of the Last Battle (in a way that say Elayne is not quite), and one of the themes the show could foreground is that these four people, who start from the same “place” both geographically and in terms of world-understanding, ultimately develop four very distinct styles of leadership, utilising their ta’veren effects in very different ways (this is still true if focusing just on R, M and P, but it’s sharper if you add E).

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, Agitel said:

I don't believe that is correct on the Oaths. The oaths prevent them from speaking no word that is not true. That doesn't affect thought in any way that I recall.

Did some research, you're correct. Apparently I misremembered a scene in NS where a newly raised Aes Sedai tested if they could "think" a lie, and they could, but saying one "Choked" them.

 

2 hours ago, Agitel said:

And "one of you four is the dragon" (whether or not she actually says this) does not have a word that isn't true

You're also right that there's nothing untrue about the statement... at a surface level.

It boils down to whether "speak no word that is not true" and the speaker knowing the dragon male, and claiming any of the four could be the dragon. ? 


Looking at "Excel" coding, with "if" statements, In order for the whole statement to be true, then 
If
R=D = True
M=D = True
P=D = True
E=D = True
Then there's no lie.

But if any of those statements = False, then the whole code breaks down, and errors out with being choked by the 3 oaths.

This leaves 3 conclusions.
1) The writers intentionally had Moiraine speak a lie.
2) She doesn't know if the Dragon has to be Male.
3) The writers worded it badly, and would make a poor Aes Sedai.

 

[Rose]

"Any of you four could be the Dragon" is a lie. But "one of you four is the Dragon" is true. It's all in the phrasing.

[JaimAybara]

4 minutes ago, Rose said:

"Any of you four could be the Dragon" is a lie. But "one of you four is the Dragon" is true. It's all in the phrasing.

This is just semantics so please don’t get mad, but doesn’t one of you four also imply all four could be? If she knows for certain one of them isn’t because the foretelling says “He”, shouldn’t she say, “one of you three.”

[JaimAybara]

1 minute ago, JaimAybara said:

*Again, this is based off books, who knows if they are changing things for the Dragon to be more ambiguous. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by JaimAybara

[Rose]

Just now, JaimAybara said:

This is just semantics so please don’t get mad, but doesn’t one of you four also imply all four could be? If she knows for certain one of them isn’t because the foretelling says “He”, shouldn’t she say, “one of you three.”

 

It's definitely semantics and I'm sure it will depend on how each person understands it, but for me, "one of you is the dragon" is true if all the candidates are included in the group, regardless of group size. I could say "one of you 12 is the dragon" without lying if all 3 boys were among the 12 people I'm taking to. However, if one of the boys was missing, then I could no longer say this, because I don't know for sure that the dragon is present in the group I'm speaking to.

[JaimAybara]

Haha, the script writers are going to have a field day with us. 

[king of nowhere]

2 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

This is just semantics so please don’t get mad, but doesn’t one of you four also imply all four could be? If she knows for certain one of them isn’t because the foretelling says “He”, shouldn’t she say, “one of you three.”

the three oaths work with perception. if the aes sedai believes she's respecting them, then she can say it. and in the strictly logical sense, "one of you four" is true. if it's enough for moiraine, then she can say it.

same as an aes sedai using the power as a weapon "if she feels in danger", but what does that mean exactly? and what does count as using as a weapon? if you hold someone still for your warder to kill, are you using the power as a weapon?

again, the interpretation goes to the individual aes sedai, and she can do stuff as long as she believes in her rationalization