full book spoilers Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers)

[Tom D]

I think all the reviews (from tv critics and the like) are accurate in that the dialogue is a bit flat, and hence its hard to care for the people uttering it. Jordan's prose was, how do I say it nicely without offending, a bit wordy, so, Rafe and his writers MUST do a better job in future (un-filmed/un-edited yet) episodes by making the dialogue both crisp and informative, or else they will lose all of the viewers who have not read the books. As we know, views drive revenue and revenue is what allows series to continue...

 

My hope is that they are re-writing as we speak. 

[Windigo]

17 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

I guess they will have to because Moiraine never gave them the coins

True, I guess they need more mystery in where are they? Though I initially thought that Mat losing his coin purse was about losing the coin Moiraine gave him. 
That is one downside to having read the books so many times since 1990, that I miss some of what is not there.

[MasterAblar]

Question: the music that plays when Perrin first meets the wolves, is that gonna be Perrin's theme or something? Cause I thought it was pretty cool.

[Wordjerk]

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I actually feel like Trollocs were made much more of a threat in the show. In the books they're basically cannon fodder. Or maybe its just they made Moiraine and Lan less terrifying in battle?

I seem to remember Trollocs being portrayed as terrifying in the early part of the story. Like Rand killing Narg was a huge deal. True that during the sprint to SL Matt and Perrin handled some Trollocs just barely, but to me anyway, it didn't feel like Trollocs weren't a big deal to kill until Rand takes back the horn from Fain in The Great Hunt. But so far in the show anyone can kill them. Even randos with pitchforks haha.

 

But I don't know. Just my thoughts.

[SingleMort]

3 minutes ago, LoRd PyrO said:

In the book, nynaeve said she could not heal him, Thom, suggested he be brought to the winespring inn. There he hinted at Moraine abilities and Warned Rand about the cost of her assistance. To me these are very pivotal moments in the first book. I do not think they should have been excluded which they were

 

I agree that is important. To be honest I feel we needed 2 episodes at Emonds's Field to establish the characters and social interactions and show Rand, Mat, Perrin and Egwene in their world before it is shattered. I feel 13 episodes might have been the ideal length for the season not 8 as there is so much to set up and they need to get the audience invested in this world

[AusLeviathan]

Just now, MasterAblar said:

Maybe they will justify it through channelling, but I don't see any reason why she can't just have been taught by her father (or someone else), she just has no intention of revealing it someone she doesn't trust.

She didn't know her father in the show, that's the whole point, a small change that only really causes later problems that they have to explain away, an unfortunately common issue they seem like they're going to run into.

[Skipp]

14 minutes ago, Wordjerk said:

I mean maybe fighting skills isn't the best description of it, but in the books it takes a decent amount of something to kill Trollocs right? In Eye of the World Tam fights off Trollocs because he's a trained swordsman, Rand kills one by accident because Rand, Lan and Moraine can obvi. I don't know, either Trollocs aren't really as big a threat in the show or Nynaeve has better than average ability in that regard.

And Mistress Luhan kills one with a frying pan

[Agitel]

10 minutes ago, LoRd PyrO said:

In the book, nynaeve said she could not heal him, Thom, suggested he be brought to the winespring inn. There he hinted at Moraine abilities and Warned Rand about the cost of her assistance. To me these are very pivotal moments in the first book. I do not think they should have been excluded which they were

 

I mean, I'd love this to be in the show. I'd have loved a 75 or 90 minute pilot episode. I believe things could have been structured a little better and a little more development done. I think I'm more just "glass half full" on this. It's knocked a few points off my rating, but I'm still enjoying it, I think it does work on a lower level. There are crucial character/casting elements I do like, and I think the show can step it up and correct its mistakes. That's where I'm at. I'm not saying your points are all wrong.

[MasterAblar]

3 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

She didn't know her father in the show, that's the whole point, a small change that only really causes later problems that they have to explain away, an unfortunately common issue they seem like they're going to run into.

 

Oh I agree changes that seem unimpactful now could end mattering a lot more later, so I'm very wary about some of the things they're doing. But in this case for exemple just have the previous Wisdom teach her how to track. She was already brought up so seems fine to me. Not like Nyneave's father has any importance to the story that I can recall.

[Agitel]

5 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

She didn't know her father in the show, that's the whole point, a small change that only really causes later problems that they have to explain away, an unfortunately common issue they seem like they're going to run into.

 

She didn't know her biological father. She could also have just been taught by the Wisdom who brought her back to Emond's Field.

[MasterAblar]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

 

I mean, I'd love this to be in the show. I'd have loved a 75 or 90 minute pilot episode. I believe things could have been structured a little better and a little more development done. I think I'm more just "glass half full" on this. It's knocked a few points off my rating, but I'm still enjoying it, I think it does work on a lower level. There are crucial character/casting elements I do like, and I think the show can step it up and correct its mistakes. That's where I'm at. I'm not saying your points are all wrong.

 

Yeah there are absolutely interactions, fairly important ones even, that are missing in the show. Rand and Tam, Moiraine and the three boys, Nyneave and Rand, Rand and Thom, and undoubtedly more. Fact is its hard to fit everything in when they're going at the pace they are. Doesn't mean they couldn't have done better, but having to pick and choose what you keep when everything seems key is probably a nightmare. Some things, such as the interaction between Rand and Thom or his dad can be done later possibly, perhaps in a flashback.

[MaxZorin]

[ForsakenPotato]

Even without the additional explanation from the books, is it that surprising Nyneave has strong woodsman skills, including tracking? She collects all her wisdom healing materials from the woods and probably doesn't trust anyone else to do it for her. She would have spent time learning from whoever was best at it in EF in order to do her job as well as possible, and would likely surpass them because it seems like the power gives her some extra perceptiveness.

[SingleMort]

5 minutes ago, MaxZorin said:

if you want to play that game 

 

[Agitel]

6 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

if you want to play that game 

 

 

Two days into its run it had a 50% critic score, too. Reviews that came later were more positive.

[themann1086]

So I noticed something in Episode 2 that I haven't seen discussed anywhere else and this seemed like a good thread to bring it up in. When Moiraine and Egwene are discussing the Three Oaths, Moiraine asks what she knows about them, and Egwene says (paraphrasing) "the promises the Aes Sedai made to break Artur Hawkwing's seige of Tar Valon". I wasn't sure if I'd heard it right so I waited for a 2nd watch and then did some digging because that definitely didn't sound like what I recalled from the books.

 

However! It does not directly contradict the series proper, from which we learn only that they were added between the Trolloc Wars and the Hundred Years War, which this technically is. The Companion does date it to the end of the Trolloc Wars as opposed to just before the Hundred Years War. Regardless, it's still definitely an interesting choice to place it here explicitly. It definitely makes the Oaths feel like more of a punishment rather than something the Aes Sedai voluntarily chose. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[MasterAblar]

Considering Ishamael's influence on Hawkwing's hate for the Aes Sedai, I think it rather fits unless there's something that directly contradicts it. Hints very heavily that the shadow manipulated the Aes Sedai into taking those oaths, at least to me.

[Agitel]

I hadn't forgotten about the oaths change. I remembered it being a concession soon after the trolloc wars because people distrusted channelers more due to the dreadlords.

[Sabio]

Series is good, not great so far, but many of the changes they made I'm not sure why they needed to make them.   There are some very drastic changes.  Stuff like sacred pools had me scratching my head.  What's the deal with leaving Thom completly out of it so far?

Edited November 20, 2021 by Sabio

[Blackbyrd]

Overall I thought it wasn't bad at all and a pretty good watch through 3 episodes. Heck, if they had managed to dial down some of the over the top moments whilst adding in some Lan training montages I might even stand up and applaud

 

Does some stuff pain me? Yes. Did the 'hey, let's just go' seem suped amazingly rushed? Yes- but all TV will inevitably cause pain as more often than not authors treat their readers with more ?respect? than TV/movie writers treat their audiences. The slow burn events of Eye would almost certainly have been better and the one scene that was powerful was Rand walking around dazedly looking for help for Tam is actually central part of all the books (PTSD) However, this is a world where people love the masked singer so any one familiar with TV should not be that surprised they're teasing out the Dragon Reborn because a TV watcher is different than a book reader.

 

I would expect the first season will be somewhat choppy anyway- Eye had such incredible pace, with cool thing after cool thing popping up that I wouldn't wonder if JJ Abrams hasn't to tried to marry the book at some point. It's going to be tough to adapt in the best of times. I think it will be more about how they pull off the Great Hunt and Falme.

One of the biggest changes I don't see a lot of talk about is the way Trollocs & Aes Sedai seem common knowledge in Two Rivers and the rest of the backwaters. I don't know if it makes a huge difference but it's a marked change from the books.

 

The Moraine & Lan scene probably serves a larger purpose of adjusting viewers to what the show will have overall as I expect to see some bare butt and breasts once the Aiel are fully introduced but probably not much if any in the way of graphic sex- then again there is always Graendal

 

So overall not hearing Mat's orginal battle cry before the dagger, or seeing Perrin meet Elyas does hurt but it's nowhere near dealbreaker enough to stop me from appreciating the beats they're getting right. I remember reading one positive review who said something like- 'awkward- but compelling' that's about where I'm at, there's some awkward campiness but as a general fantasy fan rather than a book fan I feel compelled to watch on

 

[Starganderfish]

5 minutes ago, Blackbyrd said:

 'awkward- but compelling' that's about where I'm at, there's some awkward campiness but as a general fantasy fan rather than a book fan I feel compelled to watch on

 

Awkward yes, compelling I’m not so sure. As a book fan I’ll continue to watch and hope for better but I’m certainly not compelled. I may even just switch off for a month or two and tune back in when the whole seasons out and binge the rest. 
And I seriously question whether a non-WoT fan will feel at all Compelled to keep tuning in.
Consider other epic/big budget shows like BSG, GoT, Witcher, the Boys. Most if not all were a lot more engaging three episodes in. Gone are the days of 20 episode seasons when a shaky start can still be overcome. We are just shy of halfway through the first season and the consensus from critics, fans and new viewers is basically “meh, it’s okay.”
That doesn’t bode well when your boss has forked out untold millions for rights and per episode costs hoping for the next GoT - ending up with the next Legend of the Seeker doesn’t look great. 

[SingleMort]

17 minutes ago, Blackbyrd said:

So overall not hearing Mat's orginal battle cry before the dagger, or seeing Perrin meet Elyas does hurt but it's nowhere near dealbreaker enough to stop me from appreciating the beats they're getting right. I remember reading one positive review who said something like- 'awkward- but compelling' that's about where I'm at, there's some awkward campiness but as a general fantasy fan rather than a book fan I feel compelled to watch on

 

wait are you saying Elyas is not going to appear at all??? I thought he was going to show up later. Dammit! ?

[DaddyFinn]

 

Same in quote.

 

Quote

Haven't watched the final product yet, as I wasn't able to make the premier. Disclosure, I'm one of the producers. My part equated to reading the scripts and offering feedback directly to Rafe, the show runner. I'll be watching tonight, and there are a few details I'm curious to find out about in regards to whether he took my advice or not.

Biggest thing he and I disagreed on was Perrin's wife. I realize that there is a good opportunity here for Perrin to be shown with rage issues, and to be afraid of the potential beast inside of him. I liked that idea, but didn't like it being a wife for multiple reasons. First off, it feels a lot like the disposable wife trope (AKA Woman in the Fridge.) Beyond that, I think the trauma of having killed your wife is so huge, the story this is telling can't realistically deal with it in a way that is responsible. Perrin killing his wife then going off on an adventure really bothers me, even still. I have faith that the writers won't treat it lightly, but still. That kind of trauma, dealt with realistically and responsibly, is really difficult for an adventure series to deal with.

I suggested instead that he kill Master Luhhhan. As much as I hate to do Luhhan dirty like that, I think the idea Rafe and the team had here is a good one for accelerating Perrin's plot. Accidentally killing your master steps the trauma back a little, but gives the same motivations and hesitance. One thing I don't want this WoT adaptation to try to do is lean into being a tonal Game of Thrones replacement--IE, I don't want to lean into the "Grimdark" ideas. Killing Perrin's wife felt edgy just to be edgy.

That said, I really liked a LOT about this first episode. I prefer this method of us not knowing who the Dragon is, and I actually preferred (EDIT: Well, maybe not prefer, but think it's a bold and interesting choice that I understand) this prologue. I thought it was a neat, different take on how to start the WoT. I really liked the introduction to Mat, and in screenplay form, I thought the pacing was solid--fast, catchy, exciting. People are complaining about it, though, so maybe in show form it's too choppy. When I was on set, I liked the practical effects, and what I saw of the acting--so I'm expecting both of those to be great in the finished product.

EDIT: For those complaining about Abell Cauthon, I did try to get this one changed too. So at least they heard from one of us, offering complaint, before going to production. I always had a soft spot for him. I didn't expect them to change this, though, with Mat's more gritty backstory. Again, I do wish they had taken a less "grim" feel to all of this, though I do think the details of introducing Mat were interesting and a nice acceleration of his character. Which is a good thing, since the series will need to condense from the books, so moving character beats up in time is going to generally help with that.

This team is excellent, I have to say. Episode six is the best--least, I think that's the number of the one I'm thinking about--so be on the lookout for it. But they have real respect for the story, and are good writers. This is an enormously difficult project to undertake, and I'm quite impressed by Rafe and everyone involved

 

[swollymammoth]

Guys, the show isn't good. It's... it's not good. So many terrible, inexcusable decisions. It would take me 10,000 words at least to talk about these first three episodes alone, but the biggest complaint of mine is just wasted time. In a series which has to adapt an 800 page book into 8 episodes, there is SO much wasted time, and the direct result of this is that the characters and worldbuilding are - for the most part- hung out to dry. Just too bad. I honestly couldn't believe a professional writer turned in that script for episode 1. Like, if I'd have known that the bar was set so low, I wouldn't have just applied to law school. 

[DaddyFinn]

14 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

Guys, the show isn't good. It's... it's not good. So many terrible, inexcusable decisions. It would take me 10,000 words at least to talk about these first three episodes alone, but the biggest complaint of mine is just wasted time. In a series which has to adapt an 800 page book into 8 episodes, there is SO much wasted time, and the direct result of this is that the characters and worldbuilding are - for the most part- hung out to dry. Just too bad. I honestly couldn't believe a professional writer turned in that script for episode 1. Like, if I'd have known that the bar was set so low, I wouldn't have just applied to law school. 

I love it so far