tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[NetNightmare]

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

The $55M budget for the first Season of GoT in 2011 dollars = ~$68M in todays dollars. Which changes it from an average of $5.5M/ep to $6.8M/ep. (If I remember Season 1 of GoT, they had less locations to visit, and less big city sets to construct. They also had a bunch of smaller interchangeable sets.)

AFAIK, HBO/GOT didn't have to buy and create their own movie studio in Prague due to every movie studio being full... or have to compete with the monster that is Disney/Marvel hogging up all the good CGI companies. ? 

 

TDLR: Unless Amazon chipped in to pay for things outside of the shows budget, I don't think the ~$10M/ep WoT was budgeted, actually means it got $10M in every episode. It's per episode budget after other expenses might be equal to GoTs.

Your are all valid points of course, if we talk about CGI, what about all the rest though ?. Anyway what is done is done, since they have now built their studio, since now they hopefully have a CGI studio under contract we can assume that Season 2 wont suffer from these problems and we can expect a quality on par with a high budget show, time will tell

[NetNightmare]

16 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Where did the thought come from that the dark one is at the eye?

Siuan dreams

 

17 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Where did the plan to use the ways come from?

No real plan, though it was Moraine idea

 

17 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Was there any real discussion on the danger of the ways and why speed was so needed?

The dangers in the ways were not discussed at least till now, the speed wasneede cause the DO was gaining strength and so the hope is to send in the DR and hope for salvation before he get stronger

 

19 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Did they shift from 'shaitan is trying to blind the eye", to "let's deal with shaitan at the eye"?

I don't really think the idea is shifted though Siuan Dream suggested Moraine they should meet Shai'tan at the Eye

[Jaysen Gore]

A couple of thoughts on recent posts:

 

- I think we get Machin Shin the same way we get the Wind in the real world, day or night. We do not see the wind, we see the impact of it - wisps of hair, dust stirring, a tingling on the skin shown by the actors. So it's not that the Wind is a visible black; it's black because there's no light in the ways.

 

- On the changes to the visuals of the ways. I don't like it, but I get it. There was a ST: TNG episode that did the constrained light surrounded by absolute blackness (called Schism), and it's a common fade out technique in the theatre, where the actors are in bright or dim spotlights, surrounded by pitch black. But in both those cases, the actors weren't moving much. To show movement, there has to be a frame of reference, and simply having a 20 foot section of waypath that they would walk across, and then rough sweep to make it look diffenrent then repeat probably makes for bad TV.

 

- On Moiraine opening the gates - a potential head canon solution - due to the increased corruption inside them, and the lack of knowledge about Machin Shin's capabilities, the AS chose to shield all waygates. So she wasn't opening the gate, she was removing the shield to allow it to be opened. But now that it's been removed, anyone can use it, until it's resealed.

 

 

[Skipp]

20 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Sincere request.  I haven't had the time to re-watch ep 6 and I just cant remember the specifics of what happened...  What was the justification for going through the ways?

 

Where did the thought come from that the dark one is at the eye?

Where did the plan to use the ways come from?

Was there any real discussion on the danger of the ways and why speed was so needed?

Did they shift from 'shaitan is trying to blind the eye", to "let's deal with shaitan at the eye"?

 

 

Suian's dreams, she specifically says he is weak now but getting stronger by the day. Time is of the essence.

The plan to use the ways kinda unfolds the same as the books.  After meeting Loial the day before she has Lan bring him to her.  She tells him that something important has come up but so has a possible solution(that being meeting Loial who has can guide them through the ways)

 

Speed is needed as Suian's dreams indicate that the DO is weak NOW, but is getting stronger.  She has been having these dreams for weeks now.

 

Yes, Suian's dreams indicate that the DO's prison is at the eye.  I personally take that as a partial truth since one of the prison seals are there.  But my theory is that this is all a trap anyways.

[Jaysen Gore]

24 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Sincere request.  I haven't had the time to re-watch ep 6 and I just cant remember the specifics of what happened...  What was the justification for going through the ways?

 

Where did the thought come from that the dark one is at the eye?

Where did the plan to use the ways come from?

Was there any real discussion on the danger of the ways and why speed was so needed?

Did they shift from 'shaitan is trying to blind the eye", to "let's deal with shaitan at the eye"?

 

 

Siuan had repeated dreams of the DO escaping at the Eye, and getting stronger. Conveyed in Dreamshard section. You were probably distracted ?

Plan to use the ways was off camera, after the scene were Moiraine meets Loial in the WT. I expect Ways backstory in Ep 7

No. And the urgency was greatly undercut by happy fun time before getting back to work.

Yes.  They're trying to skip to the end - Dragon confronts DO, everyone not the Dragon dies, the Dragon defeats the DO. War won at the the cost of 6 lives. The end. Series over. 

 

It's why I love the fact in the books that Logain is moving his army towards Tear to force fulfillment of the prophecies and become the DR. But in the show's case, the AS are trying to have the DR beat the DO without fulfilling  (or even knowing) any. Both scenarios are willfully ignoring the inevitability of what must happen in order to get what they want to happen. The whole Ta'veren have less freedom than normal people thing plays here, hard, and the show hasn't gotten into that yet. 

[Jaysen Gore]

12 minutes ago, Skipp said:

<snip>

 

Yes, Suian's dreams indicate that the DO's prison is at the eye.  I personally take that as a partial truth since one of the prison seals are there.  But my theory is that this is all a trap anyways.

Worse than a trap - it will likely be the paradox trope; they are going to cause the thing they were trying to stop, simply through their actions in trying to stop it. No Dream = no Rand at Eye = no fight = no channeling = no breaking the seal = no Forsaken set loose.  May teach them caution in trying to fulfill prophecy, and the risk of foreknowledge.

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Worse than a trap - it will likely be the paradox trope; they are going to cause the thing they were trying to stop, simply through their actions in trying to stop it. No Dream = no Rand at Eye = no fight = no channeling = no breaking the seal = no Forsaken set loose.  May teach them caution in trying to fulfill prophecy, and the risk of foreknowledge.

My head cannon for the end of tEotW is the same type of paradox.  Ishy was trying to lure them to the Eye specifically because using the eye would break the seal and start the beginning of the end.  But I also believe the eye was created to be used by the DR to jumpstart his ability to channel.

 

Honestly the ending of tEotW is confusing enough that we need our headcannons.

[Jaysen Gore]

2 minutes ago, Skipp said:

My head cannon for the end of tEotW is the same type of paradox.  Ishy was trying to lure them to the Eye specifically because using the eye would break the seal and start the beginning of the end.  But I also believe the eye was created to be used by the DR to jumpstart his ability to channel.

 

Honestly the ending of tEotW is confusing enough that we need our headcannons.

I think cannons get left out of the Wheel of Time ? 

 

And I also thought the eye itself was just a shield to protect the items in it until they were required by the DR. Similar to the Philospher's Stone in HP, it could only be accessed /reached by someone not thinking of their own personal glory or power, which is why it remained in place and untapped all those years.

 

Let he who sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation.  The Grave is no Bar to my Call 

[Agitel]

It seems weird to make a filtered pool of pure saidin just as a barrier, especially when we know there are wards around Callandor that serve a similar purpose. Why would male and female Aes Sedai sacrifice themselves for this? The explanation seems to me to be that they wanted the Dragon to be able to learn to channel without working with the taint and going mad. They did not anticipate the Dragon and the Forsaken using it all up in minutes in a high stakes battle.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Agitel

[thievingsackofpotatoes]

51 minutes ago, Agitel said:

It seems weird to make a filtered pool of pure saidin just as a barrier, especially when we know there are wards around Callandor that serve a similar purpose. Why would male and female Aes Sedai sacrifice themselves for this? The explanation seems to me to be that they wanted the Dragon to be able to learn to channel without working with the taint and going mad. They did not anticipate the Dragon and the Forsaken using it all up in minutes in a high stakes battle.

One of the things that bugs me during my rereads (I try to forget it during the rest of the series) is the lack of actual importance, or clarification, the Eye has in the overall series. Yes, it hides the Dragon Banner/Horn but was left incredibly vague by RJ. 

 

The whole ending sequence, to be fair, is completely existential and doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I don't believe there's ever been a confirmed answer from RJ or his estate about the real purpose behind the Eye of the World.

[dwn]

3 hours ago, Agitel said:

It seems weird to make a filtered pool of pure saidin just as a barrier, especially when we know there are wards around Callandor that serve a similar purpose. Why would male and female Aes Sedai sacrifice themselves for this? The explanation seems to me to be that they wanted the Dragon to be able to learn to channel without working with the taint and going mad. They did not anticipate the Dragon and the Forsaken using it all up in minutes in a high stakes battle.

I definitely like the idea of it being a kiddy pool for the Dragon Reborn.

 

This question came up a while back (okay... apparently ten years ago), and I made some guesses/speculation that I think still holds up:

 

 

 

[flinn]

 The strained power of the eye was how Rand was able to destroy the Trolloc army that was about to descend upon the borderlands and then the world. Fal Dara knew they could not hold and was about to be overwhelmed, opening the doors to the rest of Randland.  Whomever prepared the eye must have known that was going to be the beginning of the DR and it would be needed.

[Deviations]

5 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Siuan had repeated dreams of the DO escaping at the Eye, and getting stronger. Conveyed in Dreamshard section. You were probably distracted ?

Plan to use the ways was off camera, after the scene were Moiraine meets Loial in the WT. I expect Ways backstory in Ep 7

No. And the urgency was greatly undercut by happy fun time before getting back to work.

Yes.  They're trying to skip to the end - Dragon confronts DO, everyone not the Dragon dies, the Dragon defeats the DO. War won at the the cost of 6 lives. The end. Series over. 

 

It's why I love the fact in the books that Logain is moving his army towards Tear to force fulfillment of the prophecies and become the DR. But in the show's case, the AS are trying to have the DR beat the DO without fulfilling  (or even knowing) any. Both scenarios are willfully ignoring the inevitability of what must happen in order to get what they want to happen. The whole Ta'veren have less freedom than normal people thing plays here, hard, and the show hasn't gotten into that yet. 

Thank you to all that helped me fill the holes in my memory without having to go through the red framed doorway...  I don't know if I nodded off during all of that but when the episode ended, I just couldn't figure out the chain of events that had the whole group standing in front of the waygate.

[Sunkiss]

On 12/10/2021 at 11:47 AM, Yojimbo said:

"no Aes Sedai can stand in the presence of a woman who can touch the source and not know it"

 

 

I am a non reader. I thought she inherited Kerene channeling power when she died. There was a flash of light what went inside of naneyeve...lol I'm just an observer.

[Ralph]

5 minutes ago, Sunkiss said:

I am a non reader. I thought she inherited Kerene channeling power when she died. There was a flash of light what went inside of naneyeve...lol I'm just an observer.

She wasn't there

[Sunkiss]

Just now, Ralph said:

She wasn't there

Who wasn't there. I am talking about the scene after Kerene dies they go to the battle ground and naneyeve is standing against a tree a light trickles I to her and she is like in a dazed looking around and then the show Steppin in a daze cause he feels Karen's death.

[ArrylT]

58 minutes ago, Sunkiss said:

Who wasn't there. I am talking about the scene after Kerene dies they go to the battle ground and naneyeve is standing against a tree a light trickles I to her and she is like in a dazed looking around and then the show Steppin in a daze cause he feels Karen's death.

 

That is a fascinating observation.   While I doubt that the death of one Aes Sedai can effect the power levels of another Aes Sedai - i am aware that this is feasible in other fantasy works, so I would not be surprised that either (a) nod was tossed in or (b) people unfamiliar with the books thinking of this.   In fact maybe someone more versed in WoT lore can specify if this happened for Forsaken - ie did their power levels change after their re-birth.   If that was true that would add some extra incentive for some Forsaken to betray their brethren.

 

Regardless, and I have no desire to spoil the books for you, should you choose to read them, but Nynaeve like Egwene can listen to the wind which is basically another term for a person who can channel, so Nynaeve already had her power, it was simply blocked by a combination of lack of training and need of an emotional key to unlock.   

Edited December 15, 2021 by ArrylT

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

10 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

It's why I love the fact in the books that Logain is moving his army towards Tear to force fulfillment of the prophecies and become the DR.

And named them "people of the dragon" for the same reason - as related by the gatekeeper at Baerlon (who was not willing to re-name his mule in this way).

[Owayn The Traveller]

I haven’t finished reading the thread but I get the impression that there is a narrative from the fans of the show that those that don’t like or are not totally enamoured with the show only do so because it’s changed from the books. 
That they points are invalid because they are whinging over changes from the book. Some of these changes are warranted but some are not and they are bringing down the potential of the show. 
My favourite episode so far is 4 and that deviates greatly from the book but it was narratively sound and the changes made the show better. 
I can’t speak for all but the changes are not why I struggle with the show but rather the fact some changes are poorly handled. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Owayn The Traveller

[Sabio]

3 hours ago, Owayn The Traveller said:

I can’t speak for all but the changes are not why I struggle with the show but rather poor choices with alterations to the books are. 

Aren't alterations also called changes?

 

Read the posts, many aren't upset at the show simply becuase they made changes, most understand some changes had to be made.  You have only 8 episodes you have to cut and change stuff.  But there has been alot of time wasting, attention spent on people like Steph only to kill him, not enough time on the main characters, weapons that look fake, needless deception that doesn't work etc...  Or something like Nyn sneaking up on Lan and putting a knife to his throat (even BS didn't like that).  One moment Moiraine is in the tower and next she is outside Rand's inn with no attempt to explain how she got there or how she knew they were there.  She was just sipping tea there and knew Mat was sick.  At least when she went to see Egwene she had received a signal from her eyes and ears.  So it's not that they made changes but many of the changes are just poor quality.

[DigificWriter]

22 minutes ago, Sabio said:

many of the changes are just poor quality.

 

According to what - and whose - metrics?

[Sabio]

I would say according to the people complaining.

[Sunkiss]

16 hours ago, ArrylT said:

 

That is a fascinating observation.   While I doubt that the death of one Aes Sedai can effect the power levels of another Aes Sedai - i am aware that this is feasible in other fantasy works, so I would not be surprised that either (a) nod was tossed in or (b) people unfamiliar with the books thinking of this.   In fact maybe someone more versed in WoT lore can specify if this happened for Forsaken - ie did their power levels change after their re-birth.   If that was true that would add some extra incentive for some Forsaken to betray their brethren.

 

Regardless, and I have no desire to spoil the books for you, should you choose to read them, but Nynaeve like Egwene can listen to the wind which is basically another term for a person who can channel, so Nynaeve already had her power, it was simply blocked by a combination of lack of training and need of an emotional key to unlock.   

That would make since lack of training bc Moraine told Egwene that the wind listens to her not her listening to the wind. I guess that's part y nynaeve wasn't  channeling.

[DigificWriter]

50 minutes ago, Sabio said:

I would say according to the people complaining.

 

Which means absolutely nothing.

 

Definitive statements like "the changes are of poor quality" have to be evidentiarily supported or they're just nonsensical word-vomit.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

According to what - and whose - metrics?

What metrics?  It is according to individual taste.