tv show spoilers S1E6: The Flame of Tar Valon

[sidcarton2]

 

48 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Widely known but officially "too old to be entered in the novice book".

 

I get that the show is an adaptation, but someone of these things just don't make sense in the context of the WoT world. 

 

This is one those things that is quite odd but fits with the earlier corner that the writers painted themselves into when they had Nynaeve talk about how the Aes Sedai rejected her mentor because of her peasant clothes. As if the Aes Sedai, who we've been told are dwindling in numbers for a long time, wouldn't have jumped at the chance to snatch up and put someone that could channel into Novice white when they literally showed up on their front door and begged to join? 

 

As for Nynaeve, regardless of anything else, the Aes Sedai were not going to let a powerful wilder who clearly can't control her channeling wander around untutored and untrained. It was clear at least from the books that the Aes Sedai tried their best to make sure such women at least had the ability to control their power so they didn't kill themselves or anyone else through ignorance, even if they were put out of the Tower later and never made Aes Sedai. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by sidcarton2

[FanofKnotai]

On 12/10/2021 at 12:50 PM, KakitaOCU said:

And yet in EotW Moraine does exactly that for a lengthy conversation with Lan about her plans before she finally notices Nynaeve behind a tree.

It's like I said, you might hear a weird noise from your backyard.  But do you check or have you gotten so used to what that noise is that you just dismiss it as the dog?

I'm not saying it's great, but again, if I can find an explanation in five-ten seconds, then it's not that big of a deal.

“stand in the presence of” is not the same as 50 feet away hiding behind a tree…

 

And directly after that (in that same forest) she tells Nyn “Do you remember how suddenly I asked if you were the Wisdom?” Because she felt it after “standing in her presence” for a few seconds. 

[FanofKnotai]

1 hour ago, NinjaPowers975 said:

With nothing more than a series of coincidences to go on, Moiraine suddenly decides to drag a bunch of young, inexperienced people into the ways, which are incredibly dangerous, and then take them all the way to the blight. It is a total shot in the dark and makes no tactical sense at all.

When you take into consideration the idea the books portray “The wheel weaves as the wheel wills”, these things are more than mere coincidences. All of these things were specifically placed there by the pattern to show them their path. 
 

Also, at this point Moiraine still doesn’t know for sure (but she has a STRONG idea) who the DR is. So taking Rand/Perrin/Mat makes sense. 
 

Then we have Mins viewings in Baerlon. She sees that all of them are connected. She sees a darkness around them together that the little light pinpricks are starting to fill up(I think that’s how she describes it??‍♂️). And she says once Nyn shows up it all seems more inevitable. 

Moiraine at this point doesn’t know about the dreams and so is convinced she needs to get everyone to TV to consult with Siuan. Which is why she’s so adamant at persuading Nynaeve. 
 

Once these threats to the Eye from three different sources are revealed to her she changes her plans. 
 

I don’t see how it’s a shot in the dark. She already knew what the Eye was because she had been there before and so knew that the DR, whichever one it was, was the only one who could wield it. Admittedly this part we don’t know till after they decide to go there, but with all the rest were given before this just comes as further justification imo. 
 

plus,…you know…it’s the title of the book. I would understand more if people said it took “too” long to decide to go there after all the hints they were given. But not that it came out of nowhere. 
 

As far as the ways…Lan told them Caemlyn was surrounded by Shadowspawn. And Moiraine said even if it wasn’t, they needed to get to the Eye NOW (turns out she was wrong on this one). Not in the several weeks it would take to ride there. So again, no choice but to alter the plans. 
 

 

[Kudzu]

24 minutes ago, sidcarton2 said:

I get that the show is an adaptation, but someone of these things just don't make sense in the context of the WoT world. 

 

This is one those things that is quite odd but fits with the earlier corner that the writers painted themselves into when they had Nynaeve talk about how the Aes Sedai rejected her mentor because of her peasant clothes. As if the Aes Sedai, who we've been told are dwindling in numbers for a long time, wouldn't have jumped at the chance to snatch up and put someone that could channel into Novice white when they literally showed up on their front door and begged to join? 

 

Probably she wasn't rejected because she was a peasant, that's just what she told Nynaeve. Suian obviously wan't rejected and she can't have been in a very good state after poling a tiny boat thousands of miles up the river.

 

28 minutes ago, sidcarton2 said:

As for Nynaeve, regardless of anything else, the Aes Sedai were not going to let a powerful wilder who clearly can't control her channeling wander around untutored and untrained. It was clear at least from the books that the Aes Sedai tried their best to make sure such women at least had the ability to control their power so they didn't kill themselves or anyone else through ignorance, even if they were put out of the Tower later and never made Aes Sedai. 

 

Going by book lore a 25 year old has already survived the channeling sickness and generally knows enough not to be a danger. It's repeated ad nauseam that woman this old are not admitted as novices. It's stupid, but that's what RJ wrote. Of course we know when they found such a woman that was as strong as Nynaeve they decided to break custom and let her join as Accepted. Her potential was simply too great to let go.

 

As for the show, it doesn't seem like they have a similar age restriction and the intention certainly seems to be to enroll Nynaeve as a Novice. Why they were delaying we don't know, but they probably weren't expecting Moiraine to make off with her quite so quickly.

[JaimAybara]

Couldn’t it also be that wilders that aren’t found by the age of 25 rarely are able to break their blocks / or are increasingly difficult to teach, and therefore if they are already “safe”, particularly if they aren’t very strong, they just don’t see it as logical to enter them? (Nynaeve being a special case because of her power) But at this point novices are also basically servants in a lot of ways, so it would still make sense to me that they take in any willing applicant for as long as they wish…they still need workers and why not someone who essentially volunteers?

 

Yeah, felt out of place when Nynaeve added that tidbit. It could also be that she was just extremely weak. Morgase was in the tower for as long as she was more as a formality than anything else, and this could be the same scenario for the wisdom but without the diplomatic ties encouraging them to keep trying. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by JaimAybara

[NinjaPowers975]

20 minutes ago, FanofKnotai said:

When you take into consideration the idea the books portray “The wheel weaves as the wheel wills”, these things are more than mere coincidences. All of these things were specifically placed there by the pattern to show them their path. 
 

Also, at this point Moiraine still doesn’t know for sure (but she has a STRONG idea) who the DR is. So taking Rand/Perrin/Mat makes sense. 
 

Then we have Mins viewings in Baerlon. She sees that all of them are connected. She sees a darkness around them together that the little light pinpricks are starting to fill up(I think that’s how she describes it??‍♂️). And she says once Nyn shows up it all seems more inevitable. 

Moiraine at this point doesn’t know about the dreams and so is convinced she needs to get everyone to TV to consult with Siuan. Which is why she’s so adamant at persuading Nynaeve. 
 

Once these threats to the Eye from three different sources are revealed to her she changes her plans. 
 

I don’t see how it’s a shot in the dark. She already knew what the Eye was because she had been there before and so knew that the DR, whichever one it was, was the only one who could wield it. Admittedly this part we don’t know till after they decide to go there, but with all the rest were given before this just comes as further justification imo. 
 

plus,…you know…it’s the title of the book. I would understand more if people said it took “too” long to decide to go there after all the hints they were given. But not that it came out of nowhere. 
 

As far as the ways…Lan told them Caemlyn was surrounded by Shadowspawn. And Moiraine said even if it wasn’t, they needed to get to the Eye NOW (turns out she was wrong on this one). Not in the several weeks it would take to ride there. So again, no choice but to alter the plans. 
 

 

 

 

I don't want to shit on Eye of The World here, because, as I said, I really love the book. I love all of the first three books, and enjoy the quest-style storylines a lot more than some WOT fans. 

 

But for me, that whole sequence actually makes less sense when you know more about the world and the overall context. At that moment in the story, viewing it through the eyes of Rand with limited knowledge, it's pretty easy to just shrug and go along with it. Moiraine is all-knowing, or seems that way to the EF5, and so it seems like everyone should just do exactly what she says. 

 

But the blight is an incredibly dangerous place, as are The Ways. She's going there with two untrained female channelers, one warder, and three farm boys who don't know how to fight. She knows these people are all potentially very important to the future of the entire world, but instead of taking them to safety and making a careful plan, she leads them right into the heart of perilous danger. And she makes the decision just on the basis of a few coincidences that she believes must be some kind of signal from the pattern.

 

She has already been to The Eye once, which means she shouldn't be able to find it again, at least according to most people's understanding of how The Eye works. But she seems sure that her need is so great it will show up for her anyway. 

 

There are all sorts of very good reasons not to go, but she makes the decision with total conviction. She's rolling the dice, hoping that Ta'veren and The Pattern will come along and save her bacon in the end. It only makes sense if you feel absolutely certain that a massive wave of destiny is going to carry you to victory. 

 

It's not that much different than what they did in the show version. Siuan's been having strange dreams about The Eye. She thinks the Dark One might be weak, but he's getting stronger, so there's a limited window of time to act. Let's yeet the untrained dragon in his general direction and hope for the best. Maybe The Pattern will protect us. The justification is very flimsy. 

 

But that's just my opinion. I understand if everyone doesn't agree, and I'm not trying to change anybody's mind about TEOTW. It's an extremely fun book, and I love the constant feeling of desperation, especially in the Rand/Mat sections.

 

The plot twist in Camelyn doesn't ruin anything for me. But I did hope that they would come up with a better way to do it in the show.

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

24 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

Yeah, felt out of place when Nynaeve added that tidbit. It could also be that she was just extremely weak. Morgase was in the tower for as long as she was more as a formality than anything else, and this could be the same scenario for the wisdom but without the diplomatic ties encouraging them to keep trying. 

I am not sure if it is official lore but the impression I get is that those who channel spontaneously have at least a certain minimum level of power - certainly those I recal being mentioned as having started themselves (including Siuan, Moiraine, Liandrin, Theodrin) are above the threshold to test as AS and I do not recall any mentioned who are not.  Those mentioned as particularly weak (Morgase, Sorilea) certainly 

had the opportunity to have been taught.

[JaimAybara]

1 minute ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I am not sure if it is official lore but the impression I get is that those who channel spontaneously have at least a certain minimum level of power - certainly those I recal being mentioned as having started themselves (including Siuan, Moiraine, Liandrin, Theodrin) are above the threshold to test as AS and I do not recall any mentioned who are not.  Those mentioned as particularly weak (Morgase, Sorilea) certainly 

had the opportunity to have been taught.

Yeah, but Sorilea is another example of what could also be seen as a political and cultural interest for the tower later in the series if they did decide to take her. And the Aiel are talented Dreamers so that could be another potential explanation / bargaining chip in taking her when they (correct me if I’m wrong didn’t they come up with some sort of exchange student program? Or mention it?) but I definitely agree that it takes more mental gymnastics to explain not taking any channeling woman who wants to be trained or stay, even as a novice. Then again, that could be another interesting way to bring up the Kin, which I thought was a cool subplot but many do not. 

[Ralph]

4 hours ago, Tom alapostropheThor said:

Sorry if someone's already mentioned this, but the White Tower looks at two such powerful channelers as Nynaeve and Egwene and they're like, "Totally dudes. Take off to parts unknown for no good reason. Have fun." 

 

They'd be in novice white so fast it'd make their heads spin. 

 

Sorry I don't see why this is a big deal. Obviously everyone thinks they will be immediately, just M runs off with them. If they would be enrolled and then run off as quickly you would be fine with that? 

[Ralph]

4 hours ago, sidcarton2 said:

I think overall I am finding the series very uneven and unfocused, and Episode 6 only confirms it for me. I watch with non-book-readers and I spend a lot of the time pausing and explaining what's happening, and the persistent complaint seems to be that they are using small throwaway lines to stand in for a lot of detail rather than take the time to lay out the details. More than once someone has said "exposition is not a four letter word!". 

 

Just a few examples off the top of my head:

* The warder bond is not described well. No one I watched with seemed to get that it was a thing of the One Power. No one understood that Stepin's suicide was not just him being really depressed over Kerene's death but something deeper caused by the bond breaking. If the writers were hoping to foreshadow Lan's madness later, at least for this group it didn't work -- none of them tied Moiraine's question to Alanna about releasing the bond to this possibility.

* The ter'angreal that Moiraine used to transport herself to T'AR was very confusing. `Most of the people I watched with thought it was some sort of teleportation device to get to Suian's chambers that she had decorated in that fashion because of her childhood memories -- i.e. they didn't get that this was not the waking world. Even I have to admit it wasn't entirely clear to me either. The show to-date has not done a very good job of differentiating the Dreaming World from the Waking World. Phaw, just something as simple as adding a color filter to indicate that "we're not in Kansas anymore" would do wonders.

 

* As book readers we are well aware of Aes Sedai politicking and the level of detail that was in the books, especially during the Tower split, that brought that politicking to the forefront. The show-only watchers found focusing so much on Aes Sedai internal politics, when we have almost no information on them to this point, to be very confusing and a waste of time. The most common refrains were "why exactly does everyone hate the Aes Sedai?" and "Do the Aes Sedai just spend most of their time wandering around the same couple of rooms all day talking smack about each other?"
 

 

Others have pointed out that a not only details about the EF 5 but what the Shadow is actually doing have been sidelined or not explored in any depth to work through Aes Sedai politics and the mechanics of the warder bond. This makes it really hard to understand what is actually at stake. Early on we had some dreams in which someone with glowing eyes jump-scared out heroes. The show-only crowd didn't know who that was, and it was not referenced again. I think there was a missed opportunity to flesh out Ishamael -- especially since we've had a Dark Friend and a Warder mention him and the show-only crowd still has no details on him. I think at this point unless you know the story, you could be forgiven for thinking that the good guys are Moiraine and the EF5 while the bad guys are Whitecloaks and the other Aes Sedai. The stakes seem to be very small and petty in the grand scheme of things instead of laying down building blocks for an existential battle for survival of humanity. 

I really thought early on that the focus on 4-5 potential Dragons was a ruse on Moiraine's part to keep the EF 5 in line. But here we are told plainly that the DR could be man or a woman, that s/he could channel or maybe not, maybe they're a wolfbrother, we just don't know. I never got the impression from reading the books that the Aes Sedai ever believed that the DR was going to be non-channeler, that he wasn't going to be Lews Therin reborn, that reincarnated souls would switch gender. Why would the Moiraine and Siuan be so concerned, for example, that the Reds might accidentally gentle the DR if they didn't also realize that the DR would, as a reincarnation of a channeler, also have to channel. Which should rule out Mat. Once upon a time I would have thought that was Moiraine obfuscating on purpose, but I'm not willing to give the writers that much credit now.

I was willing to go with it early on, but I'm no longer sure that there is any particular reason to have kept the DR a mystery. I get why you wouldn't want to delve too much into the backgrounds of the EF 5, because once you start filling in details it becomes much harder to keep the identify of the DR under wraps. For example, bringing up Tam's fever dream and Rand not being born of the Two Rivers early on would have been a big clue that one of these EF 5 was not like the others. They started to hint at that with Loial's Aielman comment from EP 5, but again it was a throwaway line that the show-readers I watched with had heard but didn't know what it meant because the show hasn't really gone into detail about who the Aiel are, beyond small tidbits -- e.g. "that guy in the cage is an Aielman", "the Aiel have been seen West of the Spine", "you have the look of an Aielman" -- but no other context to make show-watchers pay attention.

 

The one persistent complaint from the show-watchers that they still knew next to nothing about the EF 5. One of the show-only folk kept calling Rand "Anikan" (i.e. Anakin Skywalker from Star Wars) because it was the only way they could describe him and differentiate him from the other boys. They couldn't even remember his name. When you know so little about your main characters, it's really really hard to care what happens to them.

Further to that point, keeping the DR a mystery is, in retrospect, not a good idea. The DR is, in many ways, the first among equals in terms of important, meaningful characters. Mat is the rogue turned Battle Lord, Perrin is the wolf-brother Lord of the TR, Egwene's story arc from humble innkeeper's daughter to a powerful Amyrlin who gets a stunningly heroic storyline and a moving and meaningful death at the end is every bit as powerful and moving as Rand's, Nynaeve as the woman who heals stilling among many other major accomplishments.

 

Each of our main characters are heroes in their own right, but the show writers seem to have fixated on the DR and thereby doing a disservice to the other characters, who are just as important. I now think it might have been a better to just flesh out the EF 5 and their backstories early on, so it becomes clear that the DR was one of Rand, Mat, or Perrin and then quickly narrow it down to Rand, while at the same time start to build up how powerful the others would become in
their own right. 

 

I will continue to watch the show of course, and I hope the remaining episodes in the season prove me wrong, but I am really starting to question some of the storytelling choices that were made and I am much less willing to give the writers much credit for what I thought was clever foreshadowing and attention to detail looks like it's not the case. 

 

1. Warder bond I believe has been well referenced. Feeling the pain of the AS is mentioned in ep3 already. And the releasing is obviously not meant to be considered now, just will be referenced later not come out of the blue. 

 

2. I don't believe it is in TAR. The Prime extras say clearly not. And we have had no info about ter'angreal at all. But why does that matter at this stage? 

 

3. Not understanding what you mean is different btw books and show. Both show that AS bicker is while the world burns. 

 

4. You think they've forgotten the Trollocs? 

 

5. Mat said in Ep1 that the DR has to be the greatest Channeler who ever lived. Though he could be mistaken. Has it been proven Mat can't channel? Or that wolf brotherhood is not connected to channeling? Besides which, iirc RJ said the DR can't channel in every cycle, so even if they have done this it is not a new possibility. 

 

6. The little dropped hints are the thing that is most like the books. Are you saying that in the show people won't go back to check half remembered nuggets like when reading and therefore they have to make everything more obvious???!!! 

 

7. I don't see how this is changed from this stage in the books when we knew nothing about any of their roles. 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ralph

[DigificWriter]

Who in the Tower do people imagine would try to lay claim to Nynaeve besides Liandrin, whom Moiraine blackmailed into submission?

 

Alanna is only aware of Nynaeve and wouldn't be pushing for her to be sequestered away in the Tower because doing so would put her at odds with Moiraine, with whom she remained friends until she had no choice but to reject her.

 

Siuan would back herself into a corner were she to reveal Egwene to the rest of the Tower and insist on her and Nynaeve being immediately sequestered as Novices because she only met with them - in secret - in order to push them towards the Eye of the World.

[NetNightmare]

13 hours ago, Skipp said:

As for the Tower Guards we see some as Moiraine as she is leaving the city after being exiled.  These guards are armed and have a lightly different uniform then the Attendants that brought in Logain.  One of the armed guards is a man

Completely missed it, had to go and re watch heh, thanks for pointing this out. On a side note though. I think their choice to completely avoid breastplate, cause they didn't want the "medieval" vibe, is quite odd considering we do live in a world of sword fighting ...and that's get increasingly odd when those guards do hold halberds & swords but no breastplate which is the natural defending equipment..

[NetNightmare]

14 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

^The X-Ray extras are pretty explicit in stating that Moiraine and Siuan's ter'angreal physically transported them somewhere other than the White Tower.

I couldn't find this, anyway I trust you on this, though this is very disappointing for many many reasons.... so they have some sort of traveling in a Ter'Angreal, I have to guess they can choose where to go otherwise I doubt the only place they could go is  "their secred place", then why Moraine doesn't bring it with her ?? someone said it is mounted on the wall... sooo either any room has this or they happen to have the only 2 rooms with it ??? completely baffling

[ilovezam]

27 minutes ago, NetNightmare said:

I couldn't find this, anyway I trust you on this, though this is very disappointing for many many reasons.... so they have some sort of traveling in a Ter'Angreal, I have to guess they can choose where to go otherwise I doubt the only place they could go is  "their secred place", then why Moraine doesn't bring it with her ?? someone said it is mounted on the wall... sooo either any room has this or they happen to have the only 2 rooms with it ??? completely baffling

https://reddit.com/r/WoT/comments/reg14e/bonus_content_on_amazons_page_confirms_the/

 

Check this out

[NetNightmare]

1 minute ago, ilovezam said:

Check this out

Thank you, was looking at the videos ? still to me this is very disappointing...

[Dizzle]

On 12/10/2021 at 11:50 AM, Maximillion said:

The show keeps getting worse.

 

 That was supposed to be the best episode?

 

 Incredibly rushed at the end. It was almost comedy at the end. Oh we’re off to see the Dark One. … ok then, let’s go. Cool.

 

 Now possibly 5 dragons??

 

Why is Loial even in the show?

 

 Mat left behind??? 
 

The ‘political drama’ was so badly acted… more like children squealing on each other in front of teacher.

 

 This is so bad it is shocking.

 

The dark one lives at the eye of the world now??????

 

 Rafe has taken a flamethrower to Jordan’s work and the story he is telling is childlike and utterly shallow, without cohesion.

 

Completely agree. I can’t watch anymore. My biggest issue with all of this is now a version honouring the books truely will never get made after this bombs. Extremely disappointing. 

[notpropaganda73]

On 12/10/2021 at 5:41 PM, notpropaganda73 said:

I'll be watching it with my partner later on so will report back on her views. I know some have scoffed at the "many headed Dragon" thing but she literally told me that's what she thought was happening after episode 5 (I posted about it somewhere on the forums) so I think she's gonna go nuts at that scene haha. 

 

So as expected, she got very very excited at the mention of "dragon with many heads". Although the big takeaway from that scene was actually how Moiraine seemed confused about the prophecies, or didn't trust the one they had. "So they don't actually know what any of the prophecies really are?!" She was intrigued by that more than put off by it, because then when Siuan says that the Dragon will either defeat the Dark One or join him, she just shouted "You don't actually know that!" hahaha

 

She really loved Siuan, didn't see the twist of her and Moiraine working together at all. In the first scene she said the Amyrlin came off as extremely arrogant, and even though she's giving off a sense of power, she kept referring to scene with Alanna in the last episode where she warned Moiraine and talked about Liandrin gathering friends etc. So she picked up on something about Siuan's story there that I think will payoff really well whenever the split happens. 

 

She freaked out at the healing scene, and commented "is that black stuff actually alive?" She also loved Nynaeve giving the Amyrlin a bit of sass, I think those phrases that are maybe jarring for us book readers ("blow smoke up our asses") don't bother the non-readers as much, or at least it didn't stand out to my partner as anything other than a good illustration of how Nynaeve is as a character. 

 

But she was totally confused about Loial and Moiraine's mini meeting scene and then when they just showed up at the Waygate she was like "wait, what?" That was something I felt myself in the episode, it was poorly handled, and she needed me to explain things after the episode ended. 

 

She's pretty devastated about Mat being left behind, she loved that actor. I told her about Barney Harris leaving the show but I said I don't actually know if that is why the episode ended that way, they may have other story threads in mind. 

 

Overall she enjoyed the episode but is definitely confused about the Eye, why they are going there ("it feels a bit reckless, how will they even know what to do when they get there?"), and thought the jump to the Ways was really bad ("where are the horses gonna go?") 

[Dizzle]

8 hours ago, sidcarton2 said:

I think overall I am finding the series very uneven and unfocused, and Episode 6 only confirms it for me. I watch with non-book-readers and I spend a lot of the time pausing and explaining what's happening, and the persistent complaint seems to be that they are using small throwaway lines to stand in for a lot of detail rather than take the time to lay out the details. More than once someone has said "exposition is not a four letter word!". 

 

Just a few examples off the top of my head:

* The warder bond is not described well. No one I watched with seemed to get that it was a thing of the One Power. No one understood that Stepin's suicide was not just him being really depressed over Kerene's death but something deeper caused by the bond breaking. If the writers were hoping to foreshadow Lan's madness later, at least for this group it didn't work -- none of them tied Moiraine's question to Alanna about releasing the bond to this possibility.

* The ter'angreal that Moiraine used to transport herself to T'AR was very confusing. `Most of the people I watched with thought it was some sort of teleportation device to get to Suian's chambers that she had decorated in that fashion because of her childhood memories -- i.e. they didn't get that this was not the waking world. Even I have to admit it wasn't entirely clear to me either. The show to-date has not done a very good job of differentiating the Dreaming World from the Waking World. Phaw, just something as simple as adding a color filter to indicate that "we're not in Kansas anymore" would do wonders.

 

* As book readers we are well aware of Aes Sedai politicking and the level of detail that was in the books, especially during the Tower split, that brought that politicking to the forefront. The show-only watchers found focusing so much on Aes Sedai internal politics, when we have almost no information on them to this point, to be very confusing and a waste of time. The most common refrains were "why exactly does everyone hate the Aes Sedai?" and "Do the Aes Sedai just spend most of their time wandering around the same couple of rooms all day talking smack about each other?"
 

 

Others have pointed out that a not only details about the EF 5 but what the Shadow is actually doing have been sidelined or not explored in any depth to work through Aes Sedai politics and the mechanics of the warder bond. This makes it really hard to understand what is actually at stake. Early on we had some dreams in which someone with glowing eyes jump-scared out heroes. The show-only crowd didn't know who that was, and it was not referenced again. I think there was a missed opportunity to flesh out Ishamael -- especially since we've had a Dark Friend and a Warder mention him and the show-only crowd still has no details on him. I think at this point unless you know the story, you could be forgiven for thinking that the good guys are Moiraine and the EF5 while the bad guys are Whitecloaks and the other Aes Sedai. The stakes seem to be very small and petty in the grand scheme of things instead of laying down building blocks for an existential battle for survival of humanity. 

I really thought early on that the focus on 4-5 potential Dragons was a ruse on Moiraine's part to keep the EF 5 in line. But here we are told plainly that the DR could be man or a woman, that s/he could channel or maybe not, maybe they're a wolfbrother, we just don't know. I never got the impression from reading the books that the Aes Sedai ever believed that the DR was going to be non-channeler, that he wasn't going to be Lews Therin reborn, that reincarnated souls would switch gender. Why would the Moiraine and Siuan be so concerned, for example, that the Reds might accidentally gentle the DR if they didn't also realize that the DR would, as a reincarnation of a channeler, also have to channel. Which should rule out Mat. Once upon a time I would have thought that was Moiraine obfuscating on purpose, but I'm not willing to give the writers that much credit now.

I was willing to go with it early on, but I'm no longer sure that there is any particular reason to have kept the DR a mystery. I get why you wouldn't want to delve too much into the backgrounds of the EF 5, because once you start filling in details it becomes much harder to keep the identify of the DR under wraps. For example, bringing up Tam's fever dream and Rand not being born of the Two Rivers early on would have been a big clue that one of these EF 5 was not like the others. They started to hint at that with Loial's Aielman comment from EP 5, but again it was a throwaway line that the show-readers I watched with had heard but didn't know what it meant because the show hasn't really gone into detail about who the Aiel are, beyond small tidbits -- e.g. "that guy in the cage is an Aielman", "the Aiel have been seen West of the Spine", "you have the look of an Aielman" -- but no other context to make show-watchers pay attention.

 

The one persistent complaint from the show-watchers that they still knew next to nothing about the EF 5. One of the show-only folk kept calling Rand "Anikan" (i.e. Anakin Skywalker from Star Wars) because it was the only way they could describe him and differentiate him from the other boys. They couldn't even remember his name. When you know so little about your main characters, it's really really hard to care what happens to them.

Further to that point, keeping the DR a mystery is, in retrospect, not a good idea. The DR is, in many ways, the first among equals in terms of important, meaningful characters. Mat is the rogue turned Battle Lord, Perrin is the wolf-brother Lord of the TR, Egwene's story arc from humble innkeeper's daughter to a powerful Amyrlin who gets a stunningly heroic storyline and a moving and meaningful death at the end is every bit as powerful and moving as Rand's, Nynaeve as the woman who heals stilling among many other major accomplishments.

 

Each of our main characters are heroes in their own right, but the show writers seem to have fixated on the DR and thereby doing a disservice to the other characters, who are just as important. I now think it might have been a better to just flesh out the EF 5 and their backstories early on, so it becomes clear that the DR was one of Rand, Mat, or Perrin and then quickly narrow it down to Rand, while at the same time start to build up how powerful the others would become in
their own right. 

 

I will continue to watch the show of course, and I hope the remaining episodes in the season prove me wrong, but I am really starting to question some of the storytelling choices that were made and I am much less willing to give the writers much credit for what I thought was clever foreshadowing and attention to detail looks like it's not the case. 

Very well written and I completely agree

[Scarloc99]

https://tvline.com/2021/12/10/the-wheel-of-time-episode-6-rosamund-pike-moiraine-enter-ways/
 

Interview with Rosamund Pike following episode 6 

[fra85uk]

Whatever one may think about the series, one thing is evident: Rosamund Pike cares about the project and is doing a marvellous work, the whole show is on her shoulders and her performance is excellent (even if she had to say "he or she" and "him or her" in every sentence About the DR)

 

She is the top of very good cast

Imagine what this series could be with better writers...

 

[DermidAjala]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

https://tvline.com/2021/12/10/the-wheel-of-time-episode-6-rosamund-pike-moiraine-enter-ways/
 

Interview with Rosamund Pike following episode 6 

 

Love or hate the show I think it's incredibly admirable how much she has got to know the character. Wasn't expecting her to toss out references to omissions like the coins or start quizzing the interviewer on whether they've read up on the background haha.

[Vartija]

The more I think about the way Moiraine "traveled" to the meeting with Siuan the more it bothers me. I kind of shrugged it off during the initial watch as just a ter'angreal that creates a limited "parallell world" or something, but if it's actually a physical traveling device that can transport you hundreds of miles, then it's kind of troublesome. As I recall it no such device existed in the books which is why travelling was such a mythical lost ability. To me it kind of diminishes the rediscovery of travelling (if we ever get that far).

 

It strikes me as a bit of a careless use of the One Power in the show, similar to how the One Power was used to open the waygate. It can create problems down the road. 

 

[Padmehlc]

On 12/10/2021 at 12:52 PM, henfen said:

 

To be clear, it isn't for no reason.  I don't like my community being used as a superficial trope, again, for the purpose of throwing in some sex or "scandal" into an asexual book.  It's like banging two trash can lids together - trying to engage the viewer by throwing it in their face.  Make it worthwhile.  It very much feels like so far, gay, lesbian, and bisexual characters - my community, who I feel protective of - are being used to score shock value points.  It comes off as tokenism.  Subtlety is an art that so far seems to be lacking.  I understand this may go over many people's heads.  But please don't misinterpret this as homophobia. 

 

While I can understand not wanting to be a trope also as a queer person, I dont see it happening here at all. Its all organic and shown as no big deal as it should. But also and more importantly the books are the furthest thing from asexual as you can get! Even in EotW there is blatant eroticism (Tinker dancing to start) and the books just get more steamy from there. It may be nuanced in description but it is very very clear what is happening particularly when looking at the 3 boys' relationships. Its refreshing that the same casual inclusion of queer relationships alongside the ones I hope are coming in future seasons.

[DojoToad]

8 minutes ago, Vartija said:

The more I think about the way Moiraine "traveled" to the meeting with Siuan the more it bothers me. I kind of shrugged it off during the initial watch as just a ter'angreal that creates a limited "parallell world" or something, but if it's actually a physical traveling device that can transport you hundreds of miles, then it's kind of troublesome. As I recall it no such device existed in the books which is why travelling was such a mythical lost ability. To me it kind of diminishes the rediscovery of travelling (if we ever get that far).

 

It strikes me as a bit of a careless use of the One Power in the show, similar to how the One Power was used to open the waygate. It can create problems down the road. 

 

Not to mention, if they have possession of ter'angreal that allow 'traveling', then why don't any of the Aes Sedai ask "Hmm, wonder if I can do that myself without needing a ter'angreal?".

[Agitel]

13 hours ago, Kudzu said:

 

I could be remembering it wrong but I didn't think the Aes Sedai that swore to Rand were able to go against their oath's even though they wanted to. I'm sure there was some passage where they were trying to work out exactly how far they could push the oath, that there was some wriggle room, but that they were actually bound to core of it.

 

This would be because they believed in actually keeping the oaths they swore and thinking their sworn word important, plus belief in the theology of their world.