tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[Beidomon]

31 minutes ago, dog421 said:

I hear people saying that the show is shallow. It is. But shallow isn't the problem, it's one of the problems. In addition to that the production quality is very lacking. Most of you aren't old enough to remember the low budget tv shows that were in syndication in the late 90's like Hercules, Renegade, and Zena the Warrior Princess, but when you flipped through the channels and landed on one of these shows, you knew from the lazy writing and cheap production value exactly the kind of show you just landed. It is very differnt from tv shows like Jack Ryan, Bosch, and Game of Thrones, which you can watch for quite a while and not know if is a high budget tv show, or a high budget movie. From the first few minutes of the very first episode, when the reds were on horseback chasing down a man that could channel, it was obvious that these were three people in costumes playing make believe. The production value was very poor, and I could not suspend my disbelief enough to get into the show. Later on the trollocs looked surprisingly good, but the special effects of them running on all fours, then up on two legs looked bad. There were lots of places where the effects or props looked bad enough to snap you out of the illusion of the show, and instead of editing it out, they just left it in.

 

I'll give them a pass on the CGI because I'm sure that's very hard, and there's a lot of CGI in this show, and it was being produced under difficult circumstances, and a lot of it is pretty good. But yes, I agree with you on the "look" of the show as being fake and poorly produced in spots. I've described it as YA / CW - not the content but purely the look. Others can see it, too. Others either don't see it or don't care or pretend that we're offended just because it isn't "gritty" and "all black" like GOT.

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

Ugh. It... annoys me, to say the least, to be hectored about having a robust debate because some crank somewhere send a death threat. There is absolutely nothing going on in this thread that can be blamed for crazy.

Don't be so sure about that. DM's gotten it's fair share of death threats/hate mail in the past & present.

The anonymity of the internet allows for those threats to originate from users here, specially the entitled Narcissists that constantly abuse others while claiming to be the real victim.

[dog421]

21 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Everyone? Uh, no.

 

Why? Liandrin was urging the group to ignore Tower law. Why is it unnatural for another sister to say, in effect, "that's not the way it's done. I shouldn't have to tell you that"?

 

When does this happen?

 

Because ... she's beginning to trust him? And saying you don't trust someone or commenting that someone is a snake isn't exactly revealing crucial information to the enemy.

100% true that everyone outside of the two rivers was playing the game. It was a major theme in the show. Some people played it better, especially in Tear and the other southern lands. The only exceptions were in the two rivers, and in the borderlands where they are too busy fighting for their lives all the time. The had to immediately learn not to tell anyone that they were traveling with a warder or an aes sedai, because there were all kinds of people working as spies for all kinds of people. Some were dark friends, some were spies for various factions of Aes Sedai, and some were loyal to the Whitecloaks, and somewere loyal to more than one. You always have to be on guard for what you let slip, because you never know who else you are talking to, when you talk to anyone.

[Sabio]

Yeah most the CGI gets a pass from me, sure there are a few things i wonder how they let it pass.  For me it's more of how fake most of the weapons looked in E4.  I think those are more of the simple details you wonder how they let slip or why they went so cheap in certain areas.

[Beidomon]

9 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

No, ultimately it changes nothing.  

There are literally TWO things that come up that actually tie to the "Does the soul have a gender" issue.

#1: 

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Could someone other than a man be the Dragon.  Well, in theory maybe, but it DOES NOT MATTER because Rand is the Dragon, Rand was always going to be the Dragon and there was never a chance of it being Egwene or Nynaeve anymore than if they had stuck to the three there was a chance it would suddenly be Mat or Perrin.

#2:
 

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Aran'gar.  Because it was kind of a weird thing that Balthamael was stuck in a woman's body but still touched Saidin.  But you know what?  The DO is still responsible for that and can do weird things.  So the plotpoint doesn't need to be changed at all.

The funniest part is that I remember nothing IN the books that specifies gender of the soul stuff.  There's things we can read based on one incident and there's RJ's Word of God in the interviews.

 

I (and several others) have pointed out many significant "ripples" from this change in the Lore. That's in other threads - not going to rehash them here. Either the show has to address those ripples, or it ignores them and leaves them as plot holes. I don't consider either approach to be nothing.

[dog421]

Just now, dog421 said:

100% true that everyone outside of the two rivers was playing the game. It was a major theme in the show. Some people played it better, especially in Tear and the other southern lands. The only exceptions were in the two rivers, and in the borderlands where they are too busy fighting for their lives all the time. The had to immediately learn not to tell anyone that they were traveling with a warder or an aes sedai, because there were all kinds of people working as spies for all kinds of people. Some were dark friends, some were spies for various factions of Aes Sedai, and some were loyal to the Whitecloaks, and somewere loyal to more than one. You always have to be on guard for what you let slip, because you never know who else you are talking to, when you talk to anyone.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, dog421 said:

100% true that everyone outside of the two rivers was playing the game.

NO. The Aiel don't play the game. The general populace of most nations don't play the game. The Borderlanders don't play the game. Lots and lots and lots of named characters don't play the game.

[Beidomon]

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Don't be so sure about that. DM's gotten it's fair share of death threats/hate mail in the past & present.

The anonymity of the internet allows for those threats to originate from users here, specially the entitled Narcissists that constantly abuse others while claiming to be the real victim.

 

See, that kind of labeling just isn't helpful. From an Admin. It just isn't productive. Why not just engage in whatever debate you wish to engage in, ignore the rest, live and let live?

[dog421]

Just now, dog421 said:

1 minute ago, dog421 said:

100% true that everyone outside of the two rivers was playing the game. It was a major theme in the show. Some people played it better, especially in Tear and the other southern lands. The only exceptions were in the two rivers, and in the borderlands where they are too busy fighting for their lives all the time. The had to immediately learn not to tell anyone that they were traveling with a warder or an aes sedai, because there were all kinds of people working as spies for all kinds of people. Some were dark friends, some were spies for various factions of Aes Sedai, and some were loyal to the Whitecloaks, and somewere loyal to more than one. You always have to be on guard for what you let slip, because you never know who else you are talking to, when you talk to anyone.

Expand  

Also, Liandrin wouldn't have been trying to get support from someone that she didn't was on her side to do something that could have had such serious consequences as going against the Amyrlin and tower law. That would have been more unnatural than the expository way the green told her that a red should be trying preserve the law for sisters as well as others, which was enough to make me barf.

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Beidomon said:

 

See, that kind of labeling just isn't helpful. From an Admin. It just isn't productive. Why not just engage in whatever debate you wish to engage in, ignore the rest, live and let live?

 Are you an entitled narcist that plays the victim card at every opportunity?  

 No? Then why do you feel that statement was targeting you? 

 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, dog421 said:

Also, Liandrin wouldn't have been trying to get support from someone that she didn't was on her side to do something that could have had such serious consequences as going against the Amyrlin and tower law.

Uhhhh, why not? Liandrin is

Spoiler

Black Ajah.

and she was very clearly trying to convince the other sisters to immediately gentle Logain. 

[Sabio]

You never know who is on your side until you say something.  Lilandrin was simply trying to play on emotions by mentioning sisters had died trying to capture him.  Also not really a surprise since was already mentioned in the show of rumors of Red's gentling men on the spot.  So not really shocking Lilandrin might hint that it should be done.

 

Spoiler

Besides maybe the person she was asking to break the law wasn't as "loyal" to the tower as she seemed.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Sabio

[Agitel]

If we go by the timeline on the website, Nynaeve's been with Lan and Moiraine 13 days before they get to the Aes Sedai camp. The show hasn't conveyed the passage of time that well.

 

And it's not entirely believable to make the comment Nynaeve did. She picked up Liandrin had it out for Moiraine and was obviously not in line with her. And it might be a bit different than Nynaeve's tact in the book, but Nynaeve refusing to talk to or bond with anyone for an entire episode while having no access to her inner monologue would mean she gets no character development.

[dog421]

I agree with you about the Aiel for the most part, but when I say play the game, I mean, it was always safe to say whatever was on your mind in the two rivers, and no one ever taught them different until they left. Everywhere they go, they run into dark friends. Even Matt was almost killed by an Aiel dark friend. And anyone that is a spy, does so with the hopes of some kind of reward for providing valuable information. The dark friend that Thom killed thought she was going to more exhaulted than a queen for turning in Rand and Matt. But the white tower has spies everywhere, not just amongst the upper class, but amongst the regular folk, and I consider any one serving as a spy to be a player.

[KakitaOCU]

4 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

I (and several others) have pointed out many significant "ripples" from this change in the Lore. That's in other threads - not going to rehash them here. Either the show has to address those ripples, or it ignores them and leaves them as plot holes. I don't consider either approach to be nothing.

There's no ripple in the plots.

No other Heroes are spun out during the plot in a meaningful way other than LTT, he's still who he is.  

There are absolutely ripples in the world as a whole, but in the plot contained in the 14/15 books?  No.

[Beidomon]

6 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 Are you an entitled narcist that plays the victim card at every opportunity?  

 No? Then why do you feel that statement was targeting you? 

 

 

I don't feel that you were targeting me. But I do feel that comments like that sour the board. I like robust debate. I don't feel that comments such as yours foster that. Just my two cents. Please carry on.

[dog421]

10 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

I'll give them a pass on the CGI because I'm sure that's very hard, and there's a lot of CGI in this show, and it was being produced under difficult circumstances, and a lot of it is pretty good. But yes, I agree with you on the "look" of the show as being fake and poorly produced in spots. I've described it as YA / CW - not the content but purely the look. Others can see it, too. Others either don't see it or don't care or pretend that we're offended just because it isn't "gritty" and "all black" like GOT.

My biggest problem with it is that, for the most part, during that attack on Emond's Field, there were just a few parts here and there that needed to be cut out, and the attack scene would have been perfect. But the director was like, "I spent 2 hours getting that shot, you better put it in the final cut no matter how bad it looks!" Other parts are really hard to put your finger on, but it really feels like most of the people working on this show read the script and not the books. The way the warders acted was just embarrassing. I understand that they were told people are coming over that ridge so look like you are about to have to fight a whole army, but never told them, you are the most badass warriors on the planet that have no fear of death, and you act like a marine who never loses his composure no matter what kind of chaos is happening around you.

[Sabio]

4 minutes ago, Agitel said:

If we go by the timeline on the website, Nynaeve's been with Lan and Moiraine 13 days before they get to the Aes Sedai camp. The show hasn't conveyed the passage of time that well.

 

And it's not entirely believable to make the comment Nynaeve did. She picked up Liandrin had it out for Moiraine and was obviously not in line with her. And it might be a bit different than Nynaeve's tact in the book, but Nynaeve refusing to talk to or bond with anyone for an entire episode while having no access to her inner monologue would mean she gets no character development.

13 days couldn't have passed.  

[TheDreadReader]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Uhhhh, why not? Liandrin is

  Hide contents

Black Ajah.

and she was very clearly trying to convince the other sisters to immediately gentle Logain. 

 

Spoiler

Given the amount of "vileness" storyline they've touched on, I wonder if they are going to show us Ishy's response when he learns of it.

 

 

[dog421]

My biggest problem with it is that, for the most part, during that attack on Emond's Field, there were just a few parts here and there that needed to be cut out, and the attack scene would have been perfect. But the director was like, "I spent 2 hours getting that shot, you better put it in the final cut no matter how bad it looks!" Other parts are really hard to put your finger on, but it really feels like most of the people working on this show read the script and not the books. The way the warders acted was just embarrassing. I understand that they were told people are coming over that ridge so look like you are about to have to fight a whole army, but never told them, you are the most badass warriors on the planet that have no fear of death, and you act like a marine who never loses his composure no matter what kind of chaos is happening around you.

[dog421]

17 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

When you assume...

If you just elaborate a little, I don't have to assume. Please help me understand what it is you are trying to say.

[Beidomon]

2 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

There's no ripple in the plots.

No other Heroes are spun out during the plot in a meaningful way other than LTT, he's still who he is.  

There are absolutely ripples in the world as a whole, but in the plot contained in the 14/15 books?  No.

 

Someone else tag in here. I just don't want to rehash this again and again. Here is a closed thread where I believe the ripples were discussed extensively. 

 

[Agitel]

2 minutes ago, Sabio said:

13 days couldn't have passed.  

 

They fled Shadar Logoth on Aine 20. Nynaeve finds Lan very soon after he fled the city with Moiraine, presumably early morning. They arrive at the Aes Sedai camp on Adar 5. Nynaeve spent that long tending to Moiraine before Lan went searching for help.

[AusLeviathan]

4 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I don't understand (and this isn't necessarily aimed at you particularly, I'm now venting in general lol) any implication that those that are enjoying the show that they are simply wrong for liking it, or that we are naive believing or theorising about what the show is trying to do, while your own view of what the show has done is definitively true.

I think that anyone hoping that the show is going to  be truthful to the books and that the differences at the moment are just to help the DR mystery is actually being naive. The fact we rushed through book material in order to get to the Rafe created material at which point we immediately slowed down is proof enough of that.

 

If you like the show independently of the books and don't mind that four episodes in they've ignored or changed even minor bits of lore that they didn't even need to change for what they were doing then you'll be fine. If your still using the books as a guide for what's happening though I think your going to be very disappointed.

 

The true test will be when episode 8 drops. I can sense a big twist coming, you don't change everything in order to accommodate a mystery only to then give everyone the obvious answer.

 

Also ask yourself this, why did they take Rand's epiphany and give it to Logain just so that Moiraine could laugh at it? Maybe because there isn't going to be a need for Rand to have that epiphany. Maybe because Rand's entire plot line has been changed.

Edited November 29, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Sabio]

14 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

NO. The Aiel don't play the game. The general populace of most nations don't play the game. The Borderlanders don't play the game. Lots and lots and lots of named characters don't play the game.

I think it's something where every nation (but the Borderlands) plays the game to varying degrees with Cairhein being the worst.  Rand thought how amateurish Andor was after being in Cairhein.