tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[nsmallw]

On 11/25/2021 at 8:29 PM, MasterAblar said:

This pace is much nicer in this episode. The show stops for a second to take a breath with basically none of the character moving at all. Lot of dialogue, lot of exposition but not in a put you to sleep manner.

 

Overall I really enjoyed it. Things that come to mind:

 

- They are reeeeeeeeeally investing in this Dragon Reborn mystery. Mat, Logain, Nyneave, even a shout out to Egwene for her strength. I almost want to say to show is pointing to Rand by omission ?

 

- I quite like what they've done with Logain. He's convinced he's the Dragon Reborn and that is bring out both the good in him and the bad. His madness is new but not really problematic. Strictly speaking the first pov we get from Logain is in aMoL by which time he could have been healed by Nyneave, so it's entirely possible he did have some madness in the books. His healing abilites make me wonder if Flinn's role will be taken over by him later on.

 

- Nyneave and Lan getting to know each other, how cute

 

- Logain gentled yet it's hinted in his character trailer that he could still see ta'veren. Wonder how that works out.

 

- Thank god Mat didn't kill those people. Instead I really like the symbolism of the dagger and the Shadar Logoth influence being called out by the Myrrdral's presence. Nice touch showing that they are both evil yet opposite's

 

- So uh.... Nyneave just healed everyone in the room. Which is crazy. But at the same time I'm not really that attached to the exact mechanism's of healing so alright then.

 

- Did Moiraine lead Logain's army to the camp or just take advantage of the situation? I can see it either way.

 

I will say that the channelling in the battle got a little... boring? Just ground exploding like there were landmines. Granted that was pretty much all Alanna but hopefully a bit more variety in the future.

 

Not sure how all the channelling strength comparisons exactly match up in the books. I'd have to back and read up on it a little. Don't think 2 women could actually shield Logain if he's trying to get out, but he may not have been trying then as well since he put up much more of a fight later and broke out. He's plainly stated to be extremely strong, and Nyneave's strength is also made apparent.

It's my understanding from the books that it takes 13 Aes Sedai to gentle a man. Not ever 10 in the show. ALso, where are the Tower Guard ? All they brought to take Logain was 7 Aes Sedai and their Warders.. Hardly seems sufficient to capture someone like Logain. THey never explain how he was captured do they ?

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

It's my understanding from the books that it takes 13 Aes Sedai to gentle a man. Not ever 10 in the show. ALso, where are the Tower Guard ? All they brought to take Logain was 7 Aes Sedai and their Warders.. Hardly seems sufficient to capture someone like Logain. THey never explain how he was captured do they ?

Not in the show - at least not yet.  Maybe the tower guard is still chasing the remnants of his army...?

[MasterAblar]

34 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

It's my understanding from the books that it takes 13 Aes Sedai to gentle a man. Not ever 10 in the show. ALso, where are the Tower Guard ? All they brought to take Logain was 7 Aes Sedai and their Warders.. Hardly seems sufficient to capture someone like Logain. THey never explain how he was captured do they ?

 

They shielded him while he was sleeping apparently.

 

It doesn't take 13 Aes Sedai to gentle a man, it's just tradition I believe. Rand stills 3 Aes Sedai on his own.

 

As for the Tower Guard they're taking a nap.

 

Could be Valda killed some of the Aes Sedai who went to capture Logain but I don't see why they wouldn't have all traveled together.

Edited November 29, 2021 by MasterAblar

[SinisterDeath]

9 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

It's my understanding from the books that it takes 13 Aes Sedai to gentle a man. Not ever 10 in the show. ALso, where are the Tower Guard ? All they brought to take Logain was 7 Aes Sedai and their Warders.. Hardly seems sufficient to capture someone like Logain. THey never explain how he was captured do they ?

13 is the ritual number required by trial at the tower. 

You don't require 13 to sever someone from the source, (as MasterAblar illustrated above) it's merely traditional.

13 is a recurring number.

A circle of 13 of the weakest women can shield any man, including Rand from the power, and presumably the same is true with Severing.

 

Shielding doesn't require 13 sisters to shield someone. The strength of the target dictates how many people it takes to successfully shield someone... It's possible severing works in a similar fashion.

[flinn]

 I really dont think it takes 13 to gentle someone.

 

 Rand gentled several all at the same time by himself. I think 13 is a number that no one can resist. 13 is required to turn a channeler into a darkfriend.

[Ralph]

4 minutes ago, flinn said:

 I really dont think it takes 13 to gentle someone.

 

 Rand gentled several all at the same time by himself. I think 13 is a number that no one can resist. 13 is required to turn a channeler into a darkfriend.

Turning is something I hope they get rid of. I never liked it as a concept - removal of free will, etc

[KakitaOCU]

31 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

• Marin taking center stage as authority in Emond's Field - by virtue of owning the inn and being in the Women's Circle.  No mention of Bran being the mayor or part of a town council.
• Ila taking over the lead role of Tinker caravan from Raen
• Ninja Nynaeve taking out a trolloc on her own.  Townswomen taking out trolloc as a group while the men hide in fear
• Woman being the Dragon wasn't even a possibility in the books.  Now it is.
• Nynaeve healing a group of people all at once without touching them. 

My being done with watching the show is different than being on the forums.  The book forums are not nearly as active with the show being all sparkly new.  I watched the first 4 episodes and so am still as relevant as anyone else regarding what I think or know about the show - or how I feel about it.  When I don't watch episode 5 this week I'll become less relevant on show knowledge but can still enjoy the conversations and people's reactions, good and bad, to the show.

Thank you, let's look at that.

Does Marin taking center stage make it a woman power episode?  Or is it that we established Marin for another scene and it's more affordable than paying two actors for script?

Ila taking center in talking is new.  But as the books progress she's the more prominent one because she's the one more holding to the Way.  To the point that in the end Raen standing up to her is kind of a significant deal.

It's not Ninja Nynaeve taking out a trolloc, it's Stealth Nynaeve, which goes with tracker Nynaeve using the environment she knows better than the Trolloc.  The group of 12 townswomen taking a single Trolloc out, no men hiding in fear, Perrin was fighting, background shows other men with staves fighting trollocs one on one.  You're reading your own bias here.

Rafe flat out said the "Woman as Dragon" is because of people doubting the truth of the Prophecy, not because anything is actually changed.

Nynaeve healing.  Yeah, that's certainly not in the books.  As for Touch, there's nothing in the books that says Touch is required, only that the Aes Sedai way involves touch.  It's much less likely a case of Touch required and more a case of "I learned it that way".   So Nynaeve instinctively being different is not an issue.

For why you're still present, that's cool and makes sense except.  Again, if you're convinced and won't change and you don't want to convince anyone else, why push the issue so much?  Again, trying to genuinely understand, not actually interested in having you go away or anything like that.

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Nynaeve healing.  Yeah, that's certainly not in the books.  As for Touch, there's nothing in the books that says Touch is required, only that the Aes Sedai way involves touch.  It's much less likely a case of Touch required and more a case of "I learned it that way".   So Nynaeve instinctively being different is not an issue.

Someone quoted not to long ago... somewhere? A scene in the books where Nynaeve healed a person, and those around her saw their cuts and scrapes were healed, even though she wasn't touching them.

 

Obviously, this is magnitudes more powerful then that.

 

We also have evidence that Rand healed Bela while they fled the two rivers, and he did so from a distance.... so touching is definitely not required to heal.

[Beidomon]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

The ongoing discussions being had, reading the reviews and stuff, it makes me want to cry.  Not because some people dislike the show, but because how they are impacted and reinforced, and are justifying it, and it feels like it's for some agenda.  It's heartbreaking to me.

It's showing up in all sorts of places.  For example, in this episode with this thing where Logain supposedly sees weaves.  We /know/ from episode 1 that men can't see women's weaves, that's been entirely consistent. the male channeler at the beginning can't see Liandrin's weaves.  So when  Logain reacts here, that Nynaeve is like a blazing sun, the assumption should be kind...at least generous enough to believe the showrunner and advisors, who've read the books more times than any of us, know this, and it's most likely that Logain can't see the weaves, but sees something else...Nynaeve as Taveran, or physical light she created (Moiraine generated a burst of raw light as an attack against the trollocs in the first episode), or just because he himself was hit with a burst, either of debris from Nynaeve, or, most likely in my view, hit by a burst of healing that mended all his own little cuts and bruises and headaches from being hauled around in a cage for that long.  Of course he can recognize those.

But folks are assuming that it's some big huge change that will destroy everything.  But it doesn't destroy anything.  It doesn't even change thoughts. 

 

It feels like the whole point is to gin up controversy and make people think that it's being some super feminist thing, just because it does have a woman being badass.  Firing up these points of controversy...especially the specific ones being fired on...isn't painting people who dislike the show as passionate purists.  They're making themselves look like they cannot handle, for just a few minutes, the very concept of a woman being in some way equal to a man.  It makes me feel so awful for them.  I'm sure most who don't like the show don't feel that way, but when you boil down the complaints that gain traction they're all about 'wokeness'.

Things like the women are MCing ceremonies at Beltine, there's no men's council.  Even though there's every possibility there is a men's council...we just didn't see it.  We don't see women's stuff going on in 99% of movies and shows.  Here it just shows it the other way around.

<sigh>  I know this won't make a difference. I just wish some could see how bad they are looking.

 

I agree with some of what you are saying, but you need to understand (and preferably acknowledge) that Rafe's Big Change to the lore  to "adapt the books for modern sensibilities" burned a LOT of trust. And here we are.

[Harad the White]

On 11/25/2021 at 7:27 PM, CaddySedai said:

Really only Perrin and Rand have not been hinted at.

And yet, a complete newbie, when asked who the DR was, said "Rand?" first. That means that even with "misdirection" the casting and dialog point toward Rand. That's a good thing.

 

40 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

but you need to understand (and preferably acknowledge)

O! Light. You are completely right. I have completely changed my position on that subject.

[DojoToad]

23 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Thank you, let's look at that.

Does Marin taking center stage make it a woman power episode?  Or is it that we established Marin for another scene and it's more affordable than paying two actors for script?

Ila taking center in talking is new.  But as the books progress she's the more prominent one because she's the one more holding to the Way.  To the point that in the end Raen standing up to her is kind of a significant deal.

It's not Ninja Nynaeve taking out a trolloc, it's Stealth Nynaeve, which goes with tracker Nynaeve using the environment she knows better than the Trolloc.  The group of 12 townswomen taking a single Trolloc out, no men hiding in fear, Perrin was fighting, background shows other men with staves fighting trollocs one on one.  You're reading your own bias here.

Rafe flat out said the "Woman as Dragon" is because of people doubting the truth of the Prophecy, not because anything is actually changed.

Nynaeve healing.  Yeah, that's certainly not in the books.  As for Touch, there's nothing in the books that says Touch is required, only that the Aes Sedai way involves touch.  It's much less likely a case of Touch required and more a case of "I learned it that way".   So Nynaeve instinctively being different is not an issue.

For why you're still present, that's cool and makes sense except.  Again, if you're convinced and won't change and you don't want to convince anyone else, why push the issue so much?  Again, trying to genuinely understand, not actually interested in having you go away or anything like that.

It is no single change of women over men - it's all of them together.  Perrin took one out with Laila's help.  Rafe keyed on the women taking out the trolloc - any men fighting trollocs were so far in the background as to be invisible from my perspective.

 

As for why I'm still here.  Favorite books of all time, and wanted the show to be great very badly.  I'll keep track of the show through here and and see if it has turned around - based on feedback I'm seeing both pro and con.  I can change, as said somewhere else, I wasn't into The Office at first but now it is one of my favorite comedies - even the initial episodes that turned me off.  I'm still hoping that Rafe/Amazon will turn it around - don't have high confidence but I can dream...

 

19 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

And yet, a complete newbie, when asked who the DR was, said "Rand?" first. That means that even with "misdirection" the casting and dialog point toward Rand. That's a good thing.

Or that they're doing a terrible job with the misdirection and it is not needed.

[KakitaOCU]

8 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

And yet, a complete newbie, when asked who the DR was, said "Rand?" first. That means that even with "misdirection" the casting and dialog point toward Rand. That's a good thing.

Define newbie though?  If you've seen episode 3 Rand Channels and they deliberately point out his Aiel heritage.   

 

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Define newbie though?  If you've seen episode 3 Rand Channels and they deliberately point out his Aiel heritage.   

 

A premie.

[DojoToad]

9 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

I agree with some of what you are saying, but you need to understand (and preferably acknowledge) that Rafe's Big Change to the lore  to "adapt the books for modern sensibilities" burned a LOT of trust. And here we are.

And modern sensibilities will change again in 5 years, 20 years, 50 years.  In the next 'turning' PETA will have Bela be the DR.

[Harad the White]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Or that they're doing a terrible job

I'm just spit-balling here...but, I wonder if, just perhaps, you react negatively to anything about Amazon WoT. 

[TheDreadReader]

14 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

I agree with some of what you are saying, but you need to understand (and preferably acknowledge) that Rafe's Big Change to the lore  to "adapt the books for modern sensibilities" burned a LOT of trust. And here we are.

 

To be fair, the fandom's "content creators" and Brandon contributed a lot to it as well.  They made it a lot easier for some fans to make mountains out of molehills in anticipation of changes.

 

I let out audible groans when I see that Brandon has posted something about WOT now.

 

(And, I'm on the positive, accept most changes side...)

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by TheDreadReader

[DojoToad]

Just now, Harad the White said:

I'm just spit-balling here...but, I wonder if, just perhaps, you react negatively to anything about Amazon WoT. 

Obviously you haven't seen all my posts, but keep spit-balling...

[Beidomon]

19 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Rafe flat out said the "Woman as Dragon" is because of people doubting the truth of the Prophecy, not because anything is actually changed.

 

You (and others) keep coming back to this, but please be aware that this was a "damage control" revised explanation after he caught a TON of backlash for his first explanation. Just to remind everyone of his first explanation, from this article published November 10, less than a month ago:

 

io9: The fundamental premise of the Wheel of Time is based so much on binary genders, with the all-female Aes Sedai, the male Dragons, the gendered sides of the One Power. How are you updating that for 2021, when gender identity and gender equity are so important?

 

Judkins: I think what’s exciting about [the Wheel of Time TV series] and what was exciting about [the books] in the ‘90s is that they opened up a conversation about gender and how gender is represented in all of these different cultures within the world of Wheel of Time. Because it’s not just one way you see a lot of different representations of gender, you see things that are more binary and less binary. I think that we have to lean into that in the show and continue to explore what gender means for these characters in as fresh of a context today as Robert Jordan was working in in the ‘90s. He was pushing the envelope a lot for the genre at the time and I think we need to do the same today.

 

io9: What are some ways that you’ll be doing that on the show?

Judkins: I think—well, I can’t tell you all of them, but in the books, there’s an idea that if you’re born as a man in one life, you’d be born as a man in the next life in the show. We’re not doing that. We’re approaching it as you are a soul and you move through different bodies through whatever life that you’re in. So that’s one. It’s a very fundamental change actually to make to the book series, and it has a lot of ripple effects, and we’ll continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today.

 

io9: Speaking of, the show’s seemingly biggest change from the books is the revelation that a female character could be a potential Dragon Reborn, whereas in the books the Dragon is exclusively male.

Judkins: I think the idea that the Dragon Reborn doesn’t necessarily need to only be a male character, that’s really important. We see that play out in a number of different ways through the season. Also, as we learn, some of the Dragons of the past were women. How was that different? How did that affect the world? So that one change that we’ve made, it really does flutter through the whole series. I think it’s good to make changes like that and to put them in the show, even if it does have those effects.

 

Ok. So after reading this, would you now just concede that Rafe's revised answer about "maybe they misunderstood the prophesy" is contrived damage control BS?

Edited November 29, 2021 by Beidomon

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

Obviously you haven't seen all my posts, but keep spit-balling...

Is it really obvious? Maybe because no one could stand all the negativity?

[Pandemonium]

Perrin is going to get his DR moment real soon as he goes all goldeneyes

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

It is no single change of women over men - it's all of them together.  Perrin took one out with Laila's help.  Rafe keyed on the women taking out the trolloc - any men fighting trollocs were so far in the background as to be invisible from my perspective.

34:23-34:26 shows 4 one man vs one trolloc with only one man going down in the scene.  
34:40-34:42 show a trolloc shove a man off him and go for a strike.

I could keep going, but those stood out to me from memory and I could go find them easy.  The only man they show cowering is the newly change Abell Cauthon.
 

[TheDreadReader]

1 hour ago, MasterAblar said:

 

Now that you mention that, I wonder if the opening to episode 4 wouldn't have worked better for the opening to the season.

 

Logain declaring himself as the Dragon Reborn is somewhat the backdrop of the 1st part of the 1st book.

 

That is what I was expecting the prologue of the first episode would be, with a lot of time in the two rivers spent putting it into context, before getting to winternight.  

 

 

[DojoToad]

3 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

Is it really obvious? Maybe because no one could stand all the negativity?

Yes.

[Harad the White]

7 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

To be fair, the fandom's "content creators" and Brandon contributed a lot to it as well.  They made it a lot easier for some fans to make mountains out of molehills in anticipation of changes.

There is a theory that all publicity is good.  

[Maximillion]

29 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

I'm just spit-balling here...but, I wonder if, just perhaps, you react negatively to anything about Amazon WoT. 

i don’t see that.

 It’s just there is an awful lot to be negative about.

 The show is truly awful in the opinion of many. You don’t need to agree, but when it’s such a let down to people, they are entitled to be negative about it.

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Beidomon said:

 

You (and others) keep coming back to this, but please be aware that this was a "damage control" revised explanation after he caught a TON of backlash for his first explanation. Just to remind everyone of his first explanation, from this article published November 10, less than a month ago:

 

io9: The fundamental premise of the Wheel of Time is based so much on binary genders, with the all-female Aes Sedai, the male Dragons, the gendered sides of the One Power. How are you updating that for 2021, when gender identity and gender equity are so important?

 

Judkins: I think what’s exciting about [the Wheel of Time TV series] and what was exciting about [the books] in the ‘90s is that they opened up a conversation about gender and how gender is represented in all of these different cultures within the world of Wheel of Time. Because it’s not just one way you see a lot of different representations of gender, you see things that are more binary and less binary. I think that we have to lean into that in the show and continue to explore what gender means for these characters in as fresh of a context today as Robert Jordan was working in in the ‘90s. He was pushing the envelope a lot for the genre at the time and I think we need to do the same today.

 

io9: What are some ways that you’ll be doing that on the show?

Judkins: I think—well, I can’t tell you all of them, but in the books, there’s an idea that if you’re born as a man in one life, you’d be born as a man in the next life in the show. We’re not doing that. We’re approaching it as you are a soul and you move through different bodies through whatever life that you’re in. So that’s one. It’s a very fundamental change actually to make to the book series, and it has a lot of ripple effects, and we’ll continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today.

 

io9: Speaking of, the show’s seemingly biggest change from the books is the revelation that a female character could be a potential Dragon Reborn, whereas in the books the Dragon is exclusively male.

Judkins: I think the idea that the Dragon Reborn doesn’t necessarily need to only be a male character, that’s really important. We see that play out in a number of different ways through the season. Also, as we learn, some of the Dragons of the past were women. How was that different? How did that affect the world? So that one change that we’ve made, it really does flutter through the whole series. I think it’s good to make changes like that and to put them in the show, even if it does have those effects.

 

Ok. So after reading this, would you now just concede that Rafe's revised answer about "maybe they misunderstood the prophesy" is contrived damage control BS?

Reading this it makes the possibility of the DR not being Rand even more real.

In my opinion even if it is Rand, his character in the show is so badly done, I feel if he is shown as being the DR now it will be somewhat of a surprising let down to those who haven’t read the books. Very anti-climatic.