tv show spoilers S1E4: The Dragon Reborn

[DojoToad]

3 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

You have no idea if he'll be weaker, or how much weaker. You are presuming he will be weaker based on your presumption of some sort of agenda on Rafe's behalf.  There hasn't been an a whit of evidence for it in the show.  The only thing that is there to base this idea around is that Rafe has said he was a feminist....a person who believes that men and women should be equal.  Which was part of the entire point of Wheel of Time. 

You'll see - he'll be weaker.

 

There is plenty of evidence from the first 4 episodes of an agenda.  Search for my posts - though I'm not the only one, or the most eloquent.  If you don't see it as evidence, I won't be able to convince you otherwise.  But that's okay.  See my signature...

[DojoToad]

10 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

I mean if you say so, but seems like a rather nonsensical change for anyone who understands the basics of the One Power.

To go along with all the other nonsensical/unneeded changes...?

[MasterAblar]

2 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

She could feel Logain pushing at the shield she had just put in place. That's why Liandrin says that is half his power. 

 

 

Or she felt what Logain wanted her to feel? If he couldn't escape there's no reason to waste his strength. If he does but he doesn't want to yet, he would only apply a certain amount of force. So she might have an idea of the amount of strength he is willing to apply but not actually his full potential. We don't really know, but unless Liandrin let him go intentionally he must have been holding back. 

 

I'm not saying Moiraine thinks he barely stronger than herself, just that she can't get a good reading, just a vague "kinda strong" feeling.

[Harad the White]

Speaking of recent lines, Moiraine says "Even the Dark One doesn't know who is the DR." This justifies why Forsaken would attack or try to influence FRs. They just don't know.

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

You'll see - he'll be weaker.

 

There is plenty of evidence from the first 4 episodes of an agenda.  Search for my posts - though I'm not the only one, or the most eloquent.  If you don't see it as evidence, I won't be able to convince you otherwise.  But that's okay.  See my signature...

So you say, yet when asked what that evidence is you balk.  "Go do the research" is the speech of someone who knows they can't make the argument well on their own.

Could you list a single example of a female character doing more than they could in the books?

As for your signature.  You made a thread saying you were done.  If you're really done, really convinced and really not out to convince anyone else.  Why post here instead of sticking to the book forums?  

[MasterAblar]

Just now, DojoToad said:

To go along with all the other nonsensical/unneeded changes...?

 

I'm saying if done, it would be done out of ignorance. That's not what you're saying. You're saying they'd do it to make a point. Sorry but I don't buy it.

[SinisterDeath]

When it comes to OP strength & Ranks we don't have a gauge as to what each power rank means.

For instance
We don't know if Rank #1 (++1) is twice as strong as Rank #2 (++2)
We don't know if Rank #1 (++1) is 10% stronger than Rank #2 (++2)
We don't know if Rank #1 (++1) is 0.1% stronger than Rank #2 (++2)
We don't know if each Rank is a linear, exponential, or on a bell curve...

The power curve isn't well understood. Even as well developed as the magic system is, it's full of gaps.

Via the companion/books.
If each rank is twice as strong as the rank prior, then Logain would be 128x stronger than Nynaeve.
If each rank is only 10% stronger, than Logain would be 70% stronger than Nynaeve.
If each rank is 0.1% stronger than the last, then Logain is only 0.7% stronger than Nynaeve.

[Arthellion]

It's way too early to be talking power levels imo...

[notpropaganda73]

I must admit that as tense and terse some of these posts can be (none moreso than my own), I do thoroughly enjoy earnest discussions about power rankings and the like, it reminds me of when I would passionately arguing about the Jedi power rankings in Star Wars and bringing in things like lightsaber forms. 

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, notpropaganda73 said:

it reminds me of when I would passionately arguing about the Jedi power rankings in Star Wars and bringing in things like lightsaber forms. 

Right. I remembering arguing about how many Balrogs could dance on the head of a pin.

[Ralph]

I love the arguments and the discussions, but I don't understand why some contributors always assume there is no answer to their questions. If they approached the books the same way they would not get close to the end of the first book

[Harad the White]

3 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

Do you, by chance, have an example of this?

An example, off the top of my tiara, is when Nyn was abducted. "Oh why oh why is this abomination in the show?" The answer came in episode 2.

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, AusLeviathan said:

I can guarantee the whole men's potential being stronger than women part is definitively gone though, they kind of had to in order to make the whole DR can be a women thing and souls without gender thing work.

No they didn't. 

 

1 hour ago, AusLeviathan said:

I mean, he made a show that changes virtually everything about the series

This is not true. 

 

58 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

It feels like the whole point is to gin up controversy and make people think that it's being some super feminist thing, just because it does have a woman being badass. 

It's more about having a preconceived idea that the showrunner intends to give us a feminist lecture and then twisting the evidence to fit into that preconception. Contrary evidence or interpretation is simply dismissed.

 

50 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

The characters, the lore, the rules of the world have all been ripped up and destroyed.

Stop it. No they haven't.

 

50 minutes ago, 2RiversFan said:

There are numerous descriptions in books discussing how Saidar wielders and Saidin wielders can sense the strength of the opposite when in direct conflict with each other.

Sure. But these are things that happen once both sides begin to familiarize themselves with one another. You can't judge things correctly until you have enough data. There is nothing about the way the show has been written to this point that would preclude the characters from developing better ideas about relative strength as they gain more familiarity with one another. 

[TheDreadReader]

1 minute ago, Harad the White said:

An example, off the top of my tiara, is when Nyn was abducted. "Oh why oh why is this abomination in the show?" The answer came in episode 2.

 

Another might be "Why'd they do a cold open with a male channeler running from Liandrin in the first episode?"  Answer came in episode 4.

 

A few of the non-reader youtube reacters that I've watched picked up on it immediately in episode 4.

 

[ArrylT]

The 2 magic systems in Wheel of Time are quite complex.

 

Spoiler

2 because magic works differently in tel'aran'rhiod

 

Which is great but also a challenge.

 

Unfortunately it is pretty much an unenviable task of trying to explain them in a visual medium.

 

Take for instance

 

(a) the number of power ranks changes

 

Spoiler

prior to and after the introduction of the EF 5 the # of levels of power are changed for both saidin & saidar

 

(b) the length of time it takes people to develop their full potential

 

Spoiler

12-15 years depending on different factors including gender

Spoiler

In TWoTC she (Nynaeve) is described with a potential strength level of 3(+10), but she has still to reach her full potential, in fact her current strength in the power is at level 4(+9).

 

(c) ability in different aspects

 

Spoiler

As mentioned ones ability in healing does not make it mean that character can move mountains or vice versa

 

(d) difference in true & one power

 

(e) differences in how saidar is used

 

Spoiler

Aes Sedai, Seanchen, Kin, Wise Ones, SeaFolk Windfinders

 

(f) different power levels before / after being stilled / gentled.

 

Spoiler

One benefit of Logain being gentled so soon is that no matter what he'll now always be lower in power going forward - so it is a moot point who was stronger / more skilled in their side of the one power

etc etc etc

 

Personally I think the show is doing an admirable job trying to explain all the different facets in a way that can be understood by the medium

 

Nonetheless, there are going to be moments that will create senses of exception to the rules.   Such as Nynaeves moment of group healing.   Nor will all the explanations / interpretations make sense in the moment.

 

So I quite agree that yes it can and will seem to some that it will look like there are contradictions or changes to the magic systems - but that does not mean that there is so.  The inherent complexity simply causes that any comparison in the moment will give that appearance.   At any given moment in the series something can & will happen that will give off that appearance, which will unfortunately then put the tv show in a position to be appearing to be making changes for the sake of changes, when in fact they are likely adapting as faithfully as possible within the limitations they are bound by.   

 

Tor.com has a couple of really good articles, which combined with the Companion book, can really help, if not fully explain, at least showcase how complex the magic systems are.   

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by ArrylT

[MasterAblar]

1 minute ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

Another might be "Why'd they do a cold open with a male channeler running from Liandrin in the first episode?"  Answer came in episode 4.

 

A few of the non-reader youtube reacters that I've watched picked up on it immediately in episode 4.

 

 

Now that you mention that, I wonder if the opening to episode 4 wouldn't have worked better for the opening to the season.

 

Logain declaring himself as the Dragon Reborn is somewhat the backdrop of the 1st part of the 1st book.

[SinisterDeath]

19 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

It's way too early to be talking power levels imo...

It comes into play due to a possibility that Nynaeve is stronger than Logain, and the disparity that males have 6 ranks of power available to them that women can not achieve in the books.

The scales between power levels along gender divide, might allow for Nynaeve to still be several ranks weaker than Logain, but due to the different scales, they're actually not that far apart either.

[flinn]

 I think starting with the Logain scene in episode 1 would have hooked a lot more people right away.

Edited November 29, 2021 by flinn

[MasterAblar]

8 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

2 because magic works differently in tel'aran'rhiod

(f) different power levels before / after being stilled / gentled.

 

  Hide contents

One benefit of Logain being gentled so soon is that no matter what he'll now always be lower in power going forward - so it is a moot point who was stronger / more skilled in their side of the one power

 

 

No, Logain was healed back to full power by Nyneave. Siuan and Leane were not because they were not healed by the opposite power. The Aes Sedai Rand stilled were healed back to full strength Damer Flinn.

 

In fact there's a fairly direct comparison of strength between Nyneave and Logain right after he's healed, where she struggles to keep him shielded, but also suspects he's not actually trying to escape. I think it's later said that he tried to break through the other Aes Sedai's shield, so I think she was probably right that he didn't try his hardest but either way the situation is there.

Edited November 29, 2021 by MasterAblar

[DojoToad]

33 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

So you say, yet when asked what that evidence is you balk.  "Go do the research" is the speech of someone who knows they can't make the argument well on their own.

Could you list a single example of a female character doing more than they could in the books?

 

33 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I've made many points, many times and I think many people are tired of seeing the same comments.  I was trying to spare them repetition, not being lazy - but if you insist...  They are not all about characters doing something different or new abilities, but also include changes to roles they play in the show vs. in the books:

• Marin taking center stage as authority in Emond's Field - by virtue of owning the inn and being in the Women's Circle.  No mention of Bran being the mayor or part of a town council.
• Ila taking over the lead role of Tinker caravan from Raen
• Ninja Nynaeve taking out a trolloc on her own.  Townswomen taking out trolloc as a group while the men hide in fear
• Woman being the Dragon wasn't even a possibility in the books.  Now it is.
• Nynaeve healing a group of people all at once without touching them. 

Is that enough?

As for your signature.  You made a thread saying you were done.  If you're really done, really convinced and really not out to convince anyone else.  Why post here instead of sticking to the book forums?  

My being done with watching the show is different than being on the forums.  The book forums are not nearly as active with the show being all sparkly new.  I watched the first 4 episodes and so am still as relevant as anyone else regarding what I think or know about the show - or how I feel about it.  When I don't watch episode 5 this week I'll become less relevant on show knowledge but can still enjoy the conversations and people's reactions, good and bad, to the show.

Edited November 29, 2021 by DojoToad
Messed something up in my reply so it looks like KakitaOCU is replying to herself. Sorry - that is my reply, not trying to put words in someone else's mouth

[Ralph]

8 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

touché

 

Thank you to others for their suggestions

 

Other simple examples that come to mind - 

 

"There is no possible way the eyes and ears could know there are four ta'veren." 

 

"They have messed up men and women seeing each other's weaves." 

 

"That arrow scene is so cheesy and YA it shows the whole production is low quality." - which I have noticed quite a few people have backtracked from. 

 

 

 

 

[ArrylT]

3 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

 

No, Logain was healed back to full power by Nyneave. Siuan and Leane were not because they were not healed by the opposite power. The Aes Sedai Rand stilled were healed back to full strength Damer Flinn.

 

In fact there's a fairly direct comparison of strength between Nyneave and Logain right after he's healed, where she struggles to keep him shielded, but also suspects he's not actually trying to escape. I think it's later said that he tried to break through the other Aes Sedai's shield, so I think she was probably right that he didn't try his hardest but either way the situation is there.

 

See you've just included another complexity that I forgot - the differences between healing by the same gender or not.    That is another wrinkle that adds to the complexity - not just who gets gentled/stilled but who returns their access.   Thanks for noting and reminding me!

[DojoToad]

18 minutes ago, Harad the White said:

An example, off the top of my tiara, is when Nyn was abducted. "Oh why oh why is this abomination in the show?" The answer came in episode 2.

The answer is - she is Rambo!

[Harad the White]

1 minute ago, DojoToad said:

The answer is - she is Rambo!

Right. She carried a flame thrower into a Trolloc city. The body count was in the hundreds. And those bulging muscles. "Rambo, the Final Final: Rambo Grows A Braid."

[DojoToad]

4 minutes ago, Dead Warder said:

I can't seem to find that title in IMDb.

Didn't make it past the script phase - it is that bad...