Discussion

[Sooh]

I guess I just don't see that there's a difference between the two.

[dicetosser1]

 

Most importantly I think players NEED to use the mods if they have a problem, and not have it out in the game thread. The mod has their own level of what's acceptable which may not match the players. They also can't be current all the time and may miss things, particularly if the game is active. So help them out <3

Absolutely. And anyone who hashes it out in the thread, offender or offended, should face some level of responsibility for breaking the rules.

 

 

disagree with this. Some people, even when arguing with each other are quite capable of working it out itt in a fairly reasonable way.

 

The way they do that can also factor into the gameplay. 

 

You are assuming that NOONE is capable of adulting.

 

 

I think it's a great idea both to have a CoC and to use the mods. Like I said, a game mod is in a unique place to determine intent from a player, and can do so without creating too much of a ripple I assume. 

 

MU's CoC is good, and could be adapted to fit us, or if anyone else knows a site with a good CoC we can pick and choose what we like from them. 

 

Why? DM HAS a CoC that is largely completely ignored on the mafia boards as it is.

 

Those of us who point at it in game regarding swearing for example have been bitched at in the past that they shouldnt do it which i find very wrong.

 

EVERYBODY on this site agreed to that CoC. It SHOULD apply to ALL boards. And EVERYBODY should be adhering to it already.

 

There should NOT be a seperate CoC for the Mafia boards as the site already has one.

 

 

I think that saying a post or a strategy is bad is within the realm of reason, but calling a player bad is not.

 

Calling names is absolutely not allowed.

 

IMO

 

HUGELY disagree here. You are making too sweeping a statement here

 

People have relationships that allow for   and in some encourage    name calling.

 

eg I call cass a maroon and zander all sorts of things. But they are ok  because of the relationship i have with those players. 

 

Other times people will call someone something that refers back to something in the past    and is ok between those players.

 

What has to be considered when reading these convos are factors like that, factors like is the person saying something they've said a million times before,  factors like the fact that 3 different people reading the same statement can come to three different conclusions on it.

 

 

and you need to consider gameplay as well   saying "now ure just being stupid" or " thats stupid" isnt exactly a hardcore insult. It CAN however be being used to try and spin an argument or influence other players thoughts about that argument.

 

Note i think theres a difference between saying the above and saying to someone " your stupid" particularly if you dont have the relationship basis to get away with that.

[Sooh]

1. DM's CoC is (unfortunately) not very well known, because it's not often referred to or applied. I mentioned MU's, because I'm very familiar with it.

 

2. There will always be an element of whether or not an insult is perceived, which should weigh into things. The problem arises when new players to the site or game sees such insults and are unaware of personal relations and just think that that's how you're expected to or allowed to act here. It's a fine line, I'm very aware.

 

3. I still think that calling someone stupid or bad is never a good thing. "That's stupid" is a far cry (IMO) from "You're stupid". 

[dicetosser1]

Fact is tho that in order to sign up to DM you have to agree to the CoC.

 

If you do that without reading it or carry on without regarding it  too bad. You are still accountable for it.

[Sooh]

Fact is tho that in order to sign up to DM you have to agree to the CoC.

 

If you do that without reading it or carry on without regarding it  too bad. You are still accountable for it.

I'm aware of that. 

 

I'm just saying that it seems like when we're playing mafia we're not clear on the CoC, or the CoC isn't clear enough on stuff we need to play.

[dicetosser1]

part of the reason for that Sooh imo is that the CoC is  to some extent ignored/modded differently on the mafia boards. Verbal has said in the past that he allows more looseness on this board iirc

 

Thus its not enforced the same   or known the same I guess as it is to those who use the Orgs. 

[Adella]

Well, maybe it shouldn't be as lax on somethings here.

[Darthe]

I've been here for 11 years now and I don't appreciate you young whipper snappers coming in and trying to change my homesite.

 

Getoff my dam lawn

[Adella]

I'm sorry, but it doesn't really give you more weight in the discussion. I've been a member here for 7 years so... *Shrug*

[Songstress]

Pretty sure Darthe was doing his best grumpy Dice imitation.

[Adella]

I tried to joke about it as best I could, and I failed... I'll try better next time lol.

[dicetosser1]

Pretty sure Darthe was doing his best grumpy Dice imitation.

 

 I am NOT grumpy!!

 

 

 

and ive been here more then 7 years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

pushes darthe off his lawn

[Sooh]

Darthe said 11 years

 

*pushes Dice on the lawn*

[Turin Turambar]

*turns on sprinklers*

 

Now you're all wet old man...

 

Seriously, I think we really can try to kill each other politely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dicetosser1]

glares at sooh    "thanks"  /sarcasm   

 

 

 

*turns on sprinklers*

Now you're all wet old man...

Seriously, I think we really can try to kill each other politely.

 

 

I vote we start with Turin....

[BFG]

As much as I appreciate the levity, can we not derail?

 

 

 

We have this conversation every few months and I'm fed up of it.

 

~85% of games are fine.

 

 

 

Are we ok with the ~15% that aren't and drop this discussion and derail away and I'll ignore future discussions or play elsewhere

 

Are we not in which case can we figure out what to change?

 

 

We have, are and will lose players because of the 15% of games with bad atmospheres. Are we ok with that?

 

It can be difficult to fill up a 13 player game and the only larger games that fill up are the 'big mod' games when the older players come back for that one game. Are we ok with that?

 

 

*note that numbers are made up like any good statistician :p

[Sooh]

Let's use the DM CoC as a starting point, and pull out the most relevant sections for mafia playing. Then, once that's done, we can look and see if we need to add or amend.

[Turin Turambar]

Sorry BFG.

 

My take is the same as it has always been in this regard. Enforcement of the spirit of the CoC is lacking, or maybe at least not consistent.

 

I'm not going to go into specific instances because I don't think that is helpful. My opinion is that in the past certain things got more leeway due to the people involved. Either the target or the "culprit" if you will.

 

People may not want to hear this and/or may not want to hear it from me but that is my opinion.

 

I'm probably stepping back out of this convo now because sadly I don't se it changing. As you have said this discussion has occurred numerous times in the past few years. The fact that we are still having it and not much has changed speaks volumes. Again this is merely my opinion.

[BFG]

<3 Turin, it's not even my thread lol

[Cory Caboose]

I think there are always going to be games that are "unenjoyable" for players on an individual level, regardless of atmosphere, just due sheerly to the way the game works; it pretty naturally delves into conflicts, alliances & skeptical treatment depending on thread consensus, leadership, narratives (from both villagers & wolves) ... but I think BFG's assessment (a high percentage of games are good, healthy games) is spot-on but it's not unusual for people to remember the bad more than the good.

 

To some extent (see: the good, healthy games) I feel this is more a spirit of the law than a letter of the law thing. Dice said something along the lines of "if I have a good rapport with someone and want to do some innocuous joking with them I should be allowed" and I think that's very fair. While I don't think it's a lot to ask to be considerate of how players new to you view what you say (ie, be clearer with your intent, since not everyone can naturally decipher whether you are being facetious or not over text) that's really not the source of what derails those small percentage of games. It's more of, how do we stop individual conflicts from hurting games?

The only one who can really react quickly to damage mitigate (and not always quickly, depending on timing, etc.) is the game host, so I think a decent starting point is players communicating a bit more with their host when unpleasant situations unfurl. Unfortunately this puts game hosts in a situation where they may have to make difficult decisions re: replacements & modkills and in many ways effect the balance of the game, but I feel a game that lost its balance as a response to the thread being derailed with personal attacks & vitriol is probably still better than a more emotionally charged bad experience for the player base that chases players away from the Mafia forum in general.

[Adella]

Point blank, BFG is right, people will just stop playing because of the bad games. It's not that people act a certain way or like to win, again it's the personal stuff. We can't just call someone an idiot or say they suck at mafia, it's immature and just not ok.

 

We can Lynch Verb if he won't do anything I think.

[BFG]

Dice is right that the CoC actually covers a lot of this, just needs modifying to account for QTs and incorporate the game mod into the official structure

 

Maybe some other stuff

 

Will post an edited version tonight

[Verbal32]

Bottom line is that it is true I've allowed the mafia board to be more lax when it comes to the CoC.  The Debates & Discussions board is much the same way, so it isn't like this is only for mafia.
 
That said, it is clear that I need to stop allowing the mafia board to be more lax.  I am committing to doing exactly that.
 
Why?
 

You are assuming that NOONE is capable of adulting.

Because unfortunately this ends up being true more than we'd all like to admit.

[Verbal32]

Going forward, any in-game issues are to be brought PRIVATELY to the game mod ASAP.  If the mod is able to handle at that point, and all parties are ok with that, then fine.  If not, then the mod needs to escalate this to me.  If I'm a player in that game and the information will mess up balance/whatever, then I'm ok with being replaced as needed, in that instance.  Otherwise, I expect it brought to me and I will handle.

 

If mods do not do that, and the issue festers within that game, then I'm not going to add that mod to the queue anymore.  If players don't obey either (1) the decision of the game mod, or (2) my decision after it is escalated to me, then I will place that player on the new usergroup and they will not be able to see the mafia board.

 

 

I'm open to ideas on how long such a "timeout" lasts, and how many strikes they are allowed before it becomes permanent.  Then again, if it comes to a need for a permanent removal, then they are in jeopardy of me just banning them from DM anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thoughts?

[Verbal32]

We have this conversation every few months and I'm fed up of it.

 

Agreed, and I'm mostly to blame for that.  I apologize to everybody for stepping back and thinking it would solve itself - that was dumb of me to think.

 

All I can say is that I promise not to abandon the board again.