Verin's Letters

[Luckers]

Didn't wanna say anything about Caemlyn in the title--too many threads on it--but that's what this thread be about.

 

Did anyone else find Olver incredibly creepy? Jason said tragic, I say budding sociopath.

[clu7ch]

Didn't wanna say anything about Caemlyn in the title--too many threads on it--but that's what this thread be about.

 

Did anyone else find Olver incredibly creepy? Jason said tragic, I say budding sociopath.

 

 

/agree.

 

The letter, though. It started out so boring and escalated as quickly as the news team fight in The Legend of Ron Burgundy.

 

 

[Sharaman]

Didn't wanna say anything about Caemlyn in the title--too many threads on it--but that's what this thread be about.

 

Did anyone else find Olver incredibly creepy? Jason said tragic, I say budding sociopath.

 

 

/agree.

 

The letter, though. It started out so boring and escalated as quickly as the news team fight in The Legend of Ron Burgundy.

Don't get Verin's logic though - Verin has generally been very logical.

Why insist Mat couldn't open it etc.?

Why not just say "Wait x days for me in Camelyn, and if I'm not back, open her up and use your judgement on what to do with the info there." It's not like she's asking Mat to do something particularly difficult - just pass on a message. This way she risked exactly what did apparently happen: The Waygate wasn't guarded.

[clu7ch]

Didn't wanna say anything about Caemlyn in the title--too many threads on it--but that's what this thread be about.

 

Did anyone else find Olver incredibly creepy? Jason said tragic, I say budding sociopath.

 

 

/agree.

 

The letter, though. It started out so boring and escalated as quickly as the news team fight in The Legend of Ron Burgundy.

Don't get Verin's logic though - Verin has generally been very logical.

Why insist Mat couldn't open it etc.?

Why not just say "Wait x days for me in Camelyn, and if I'm not back, open her up and use your judgement on what to do with the info there." It's not like she's asking Mat to do something particularly difficult - just pass on a message. This way she risked exactly what did apparently happen: The Waygate wasn't guarded.

 

Never send a wool-head to do a dark-friend's job.

*Poof!* oh hai, blow that sucker up *points to waygate* guys im srs. *poof*

[Sharaman]

Didn't wanna say anything about Caemlyn in the title--too many threads on it--but that's what this thread be about.

 

Did anyone else find Olver incredibly creepy? Jason said tragic, I say budding sociopath.

 

 

/agree.

 

The letter, though. It started out so boring and escalated as quickly as the news team fight in The Legend of Ron Burgundy.

Don't get Verin's logic though - Verin has generally been very logical.

Why insist Mat couldn't open it etc.?

Why not just say "Wait x days for me in Camelyn, and if I'm not back, open her up and use your judgement on what to do with the info there." It's not like she's asking Mat to do something particularly difficult - just pass on a message. This way she risked exactly what did apparently happen: The Waygate wasn't guarded.

 

Never send a wool-head to do a dark-friend's job.

*Poof!* oh hai, blow that sucker up *points to waygate* guys im srs. *poof*

Do you reckon Talmanes will use the dragons to blast the Waygate?

[clu7ch]

Either way, when the trolloc's starting having them used against them, they're up for a surprise. But it would be a shame if the Dark One's forces became prematurely aware of this weapon.

[Luckers]

Do you reckon Talmanes will use the dragons to blast the Waygate?

 

I reckon it's too late for that. I wonder... with the Black Tower and Caemlyn--could Andor become a launching pad for the Shadow?

[lordofsoup]

If the trollocs try to use them all that will happen is they will explode, when they dont do it right. Verin should have realized that Mat was not going to open that letter.

 

How large is the dreamspike's radius? If it covers all of Camalyn, then Andor is in for a beating.

[Slick Mongoose]

Is it possible that Verin couldn't word her instructions any other way without betraying her oaths?

 

Seems important enough that she should have mentioned it to Egwene, though.

[Sharaman]

Is it possible that Verin couldn't word her instructions any other way without betraying her oaths?

 

Seems important enough that she should have mentioned it to Egwene, though.

No - she told Mat he could open it on day 10 after he was dropped in Caemlyn (if she didn't return) and do what it told him to.

She could just as easily have told Mat to open on day 10 and do what you want after reading it.

[Lynchgrinch]

Why does RJ always put some of the best stuff in prologues and epilogues???

 

Olver is starting to sound pretty creepy though....

Andor seems pretty much doomed, caemlyn at the very least is gonna be burnt to a crisp.

 

Unless rand does what he did in "a storm of light" X 4000000

[Alivia]

Why did Mat's Luck and Ta'averen-ness keep him from opening the letter? IWas it merely his suspicion or something else? If he needed to stop the Trollocs, etc. from using the Waygate - wouldn't he have been pushed to open the letter sooner?

[Second Chance]

When I turned to the double page that had the letter printed on the right hand side it required a Herculean effort of will not to just skip the preceding page and a half. I might be against the tide of opinion here but for me the letter was a disappointment. I expected something massive. Unless I am missing something vital I just don't feel the loss of Caemlyn (while nobody we really care about is even there) to be a big deal.

 

I mean, I get that Mat's cannons are in there. I don't know, just didn't have the same impact as other parts of the Epilogue did for me.

[bushleague16]

When I turned to the double page that had the letter printed on the right hand side it required a Herculean effort of will not to just skip the preceding page and a half. I might be against the tide of opinion here but for me the letter was a disappointment. I expected something massive. Unless I am missing something vital I just don't feel the loss of Caemlyn (while nobody we really care about is even there) to be a big deal.

 

I mean, I get that Mat's cannons are in there. I don't know, just didn't have the same impact as other parts of the Epilogue did for me.

 

Number of reasons why Caemlyn is important... It's in the middle of the map, which means that going to the last battle the light will have bad guys hitting them from both sides, we know that Elayne is going to go crazy about it and take all of her troops back there, meaning others will also take their troops there, it's close to the BT which is becoming more and more a bastion for the shadow AND if that isn't enough it shows that Rand was foolish in simply guarding the waygates and not destroying them... meaning the world will soon be flooded with shadowspawn. And what is even more disturbing is HOW Verin knew about the attack almost a month in advance. As clever as she is, it means she was pretty up close and personal with one of the forsaken... Mesanna would make sense, but I have a feeling it's either Demandred or Moridian.

 

Basically the light thought they had everything under control and now all hell is breaking loose.

[Terez]

Verin's mistake was that she underestimated Mat's character, in two ways:

 

1. She assumed he would either break his word, or that his childish curiosity would overcome his obvious hesitation to blindly agree to her orders, and

2. She assumed that her orders for him to follow her instructions would somehow do what Mat's little conscience would not, knowing the danger of the Waygate. Which was both foolish and an underestimation on Verin's part.

 

It's not all that surprising that she underestimates him, though...she only knew him when he was under the influence of the dagger. She literally had not seen him at all since he woke up from being Healed.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, Verin made a BIG mistake. In many ways, she was a complete idiot.

 

She really should have said, open the damn letter in 10 days or whenever. Do what you wish with it.

 

Instead she said the worst thing possible. Open it and you HAVE to do it.

 

They aer the two things Mat hates the most. Obeying orders and being caught in Aes Sedai traps.

 

Besides, she didnt have to tell him he HAD to do it. I mean, come on. its not like he is going to open the letter and say. oh, fair enough. Not going to do anything about that.

 

Of course he is going to destroy the damn waygate.

 

On another note, I thought the effects of the letter and how it was written were brilliant. Excellent in terms of story.

[Negawonka]

Was she really though?

 

I think Verin really didn't expect Mat to ever open the letter. Think about it, she was a dark friend when she gave it to him but in it was info directly against the plans of her great lord. The only way she could have done this is if she was certain that it wouldn't be read until after she was dead (or within about an hour of said death).

 

The question really is why she would even bother to give him the letter if she didn't intend him to open it. I think she gave him the letter so that his army would be near caemlyn when the shadowspawn poured into it. The writing inside of it could have been for no other purpose than to warn tell him how to fix the problem once it started and prevent it in the future without seeming to be a darkfriend.

 

Keep in mind, Verin is regarded as being just as good as (if not better than) most gray sisters when it comes to manipulating people.

[lordofsoup]

Mat is not in Camelyn. He is stuck out near whitebridge somewhere. Is Grady in Camelyn or is he with Perrin? If he is in Camelyn he is not going to be picking up Mat anytimes soon.

[Dunedain Fal]

Didn't wanna say anything about Caemlyn in the title--too many threads on it--but that's what this thread be about.

 

Did anyone else find Olver incredibly creepy? Jason said tragic, I say budding sociopath.

 

 

/agree.

 

The letter, though. It started out so boring and escalated as quickly as the news team fight in The Legend of Ron Burgundy.

Don't get Verin's logic though - Verin has generally been very logical.

Why insist Mat couldn't open it etc.?

Why not just say "Wait x days for me in Camelyn, and if I'm not back, open her up and use your judgement on what to do with the info there." It's not like she's asking Mat to do something particularly difficult - just pass on a message. This way she risked exactly what did apparently happen: The Waygate wasn't guarded.

 

I suspect that it has to do with the need of Verin to get around her Dark Oaths. If she was to do as you suggested, her Dark Oaths might have prevented her from revealing the secrets she had to reveal. So she had to take a circumspect route to reveal the secret.

[lordofsoup]

I was just thinking. Would it be a bad thing if Caemlyn fell? Then Rand could funnel the enormous army of Trollocs towards the Seanchan, and let them destroy each other. After that, The Seanchan will be much more agreeable.

[aunt_pol]

I have to say Verin might have undone most of her good by not telling Egwene about the Waygate. How hard would that have been? Oh egwene while you're at it, maybe let elayne know, or bring a few sisters to caemlyn and sort it out. Very disappointed in that letter. Was expecting all kinds of interesting info in it.

[Sid]

Is there any possibility that Olver picking up his knife to go fight could turn out to have some kind of positive outcome in the big picture? Generally so far things happen because they must happen. Perhaps he sees some Kinswomen in Caemlyn that recognize him and he's able to tell them to do something to the Waygate. Maybe his tragedy will make Mat do something important that otherwise would not of occurred to him. Maybe he saves someone's life. It seems unlikely that anything at all good could come of this, but... thinking back to the thread about "If you could change one thing that happened in the books, what would it be?" there are very few things that you could leave out or change without a significantly different outcome resulting in something catastrophic happening.

 

Verin failed miserably with her letter, even though she pulled out a nearly impossible victory with her life's work. Somehow this miserable failure has to turn around to be a not-failure, if not a victory. Somehow.

[slacker123]

or maybe, like moraine, she had answers and knew that it had to be done this way

[DA_]

While the letter itself did confuse me, I didn't speculate much on why Verin made Mat promise in such a way he wouldn't open it.

 

I don't think we should assume Caemlyn lost though, they were using a waygate and not a portal stone to bring in the Trolloc army, so the number of Trollocs we saw funneled into the Two Rivers while Perrin was there will likely be a good baseline for the number of Trollocs that will be in Caemlyn - this was not a Portal Stone like earlier in the book where limitless troops could be shuttled in. They would have to travel for days in smaller packs dealing with the traps left to kill darkspawn in the Ways as well as machin shin. I won't try to put a strict number to it, but I think it's reasonable to assume it's not a limitless horde - it's not as if they could have come through the waygate in the middle of the city and camped out unnoticed to stockpile an army. Caemlyn would be a valuable enough target they would be willing to take large casualties sending larger troop counts through the Ways I'm sure but there is still a limit.

 

On the other side Elayne wound up going to Cairhien with the Nobles and their armsmen, presumably leaving the full Band camped outside of Caemlyn (latest count of the band around 30,000?) - along with a large number of mercenary groups (Mat estimated 10,000 combined), and whatever forces Elayne had left (Presumably only the guard, Egwene had wanted everything at the field and we know Elayne told the nobles in Cairhien she was going to take their armies so I'm certain she took Andor's). They should be able to make a fight at retaking the city even without reinforcements assuming that Dark Friend channelers aren't present in too large of numbers (possible due to proximity of the black tower but I don't think likely due to the brewing issues there). I can't imagine the dreamspike effecting the area either, I can't see Taim moving it away from the Black Tower, and unless I'm mistaken when Perrin was fighting Isam he mentioned being able to travel 4 leagues from the center to the edge and the Black Tower was an hourish ride from Caemlyn.

 

 

Olver should be interesting though, I can't puzzle out what his going in means - when RJ said Olver was not Gaidal Cain he did say Olver had a purpose in the story. I don't know if that means his character is needed to do something directly, or if merely by his presence and the oft-stated way everyone in the Band fathers him and the women mother him will lead them to recruiting the other Mercenaries to go in after him when they might have otherwise been hesitant without Mat?

 

 

It seems unfair, we can read in half a day what it took a year+ to get on the shelves :p

[masty]

I am wondering if verin would have said to Mat open the letter in 10 days and read it would it be considered betraying the great lord since the letter contained information about the shadow's plans? I also think she wanted mat and the band of red hand to be there in Camelyn when the attack happened so she made him stay there for 30 days? Atleast if he doesn't open the letter the army is there to fight it?