Perrin's Arc

[blazetheearth]

 

Since she is the queen of Andor, Rand is her hubby, the 2 rivers belong to her,

 

 

What book did they get married in again??? Cause I missed that scene, I thought he was just the father of her illegitimate children. If this is an example of what you consider 'facts' then I think I'll stick to the way I read things, not yours.

 

Until they marry, she has absolutely NO claim on anything given to Rand, including the Two Rivers.

And his "seat in Andor" can just as easily mean "his location of power and it is in what we see on a current map as in Andor."

[David Selig]

What book did they get married in again???

Volume 11.5 "Hot Nights in Caemlyn". Not only they got married, but they did a lot of other stuff together, explained in graphic detail. Avi and Min were there too, you can imagine the rest. ;)

[Lena]

the only right thing would have been to declare this:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

etc. Declaration of Independence for the Two Rivers Republic.

 

then shove it up Elaynes pretty backside, and afterwards start talking about a possible alliance.

[David Selig]

Faile would've been quite unhappy with that, she kind of likes being the noble Lady in charge. ;)

[Ltsegarra]

Not to put words in Robert Jordan's mouth, but he does like this idea of things from the past reoccurring. So for all that it is worth, I believe that no matter what "deal" Elayne made, Manthernan will rise again to full power as it's own kingdom with Perrinf and Faile as it's first rulers.

 

The whole point of winning Tarmon Gaidon, is so that things can keep going. Whatever it's results the world doesn't just go "poof".

 

As an aside I miss Robert Jordan style of writing the various armies under Mat, Perrin, and Lan. Under Mat, his followers like Mat for his incredible luck and hidden military strategy. Under Perrin you got a sense of his followers adoring or in awe of him looking towards a future kingdom. Perrin also listens more to his "generals" than Mat. This cause he really doesn't have experience in "battle". LANs followers are something else altogether. For all intents and purpose they're veteran fighters, fighting for a past denied them, and they'll not let anything get in their way including LAN.

 

Sanderson tends to write the followers all the same way without this added flavoring.

[Mystraka]

On Slayer and shadow hounds...

 

Could Slayers goal in killing wolves in the TAR, be so that finally the Dark One can gain access to the souled of wolves and reincarnate them, ablitely corrupted, into shadow hounds?

 

On Perrin and channeling in dreams...

 

The point of Perrin telling Egwene that, "..balefire is just a weave..." is that everything in TAR is a "concept" of the mind. There is no weaving in dreams just a thought. All the Aes Sedais running around channeling are just wishing weaves into existence.

 

On Perrins Power-wrought Hammer...

 

I believe a hidden effect maybe to shatters whatever binds the shadow to physical forms. Much like When Rand "cut" Asmodean from the True Source, Perrin may now find himself with this power. Obviously, this may play into the actual slaying of Slayer, as well as freeing the "13x13 compelled" channelers.

Another effect may be that anything crafted by this hammer will get a +1 on all rolls.

 

Rand didnt sever Asmodean, he removed the protection of the Dark One from Asmodean which caused him to not want to channel for fear of madness

[Mystraka]

Not really, the weak channeler near Perrin was appearing and disappearing imply that he was bringing in many Amal groups rather than one large group of trollocs.

 

Grandel mentions "wow they found one Dream Spike?!" she was shocked one was found likelihood of two surfacing at the same time...

 

 

Male channelers strength cannot be measured in the way a woman can be. It was sensed that the channeler didn't use much power to bring the trollocs through the portal, not that the channeler was in fact weak. (although it was written bad in book)

 

Graendel was shown two dream spikes in Moridins chambers, and while impressed with the overall quantity, didn't show an overwhelming interest in the dreamspikes. Mesanna on the other hand marvelled like a kid in a candy store when she discovered a dream spike in TV (i think you meant Mesanna)

[Sharaman]

Not really, the weak channeler near Perrin was appearing and disappearing imply that he was bringing in many Amal groups rather than one large group of trollocs.

 

Grandel mentions "wow they found one Dream Spike?!" she was shocked one was found likelihood of two surfacing at the same time...

 

 

Male channelers strength cannot be measured in the way a woman can be. It was sensed that the channeler didn't use much power to bring the trollocs through the portal, not that the channeler was in fact weak. (although it was written bad in book)

 

Graendel was shown two dream spikes in Moridins chambers, and while impressed with the overall quantity, didn't show an overwhelming interest in the dreamspikes. Mesanna on the other hand marvelled like a kid in a candy store when she discovered a dream spike in TV (i think you meant Mesanna)

 

It's perfectly possible that all Grady felt was the relatively minimal power the channeler used at the Jehannah Road portal stone to transport himself alone back to the pther stone, wherever he was fetching the trollocs from. Grady would not necessarily sense (in fact, we have no reason to believe he would sense) the power the channeler used at the other stone where he was actually transporting fists of trollocs.

 

Graendal was told by Moridin that he had found only two Dspikes and the other was being put to good use. She saw only one - the one she was offered to use.

[Ashaman_Axel]

Can Perrin Travel now using TAR, like Slayer?

[blazetheearth]

Can Perrin Travel now using TAR, like Slayer?

 

That's probably a RAFO, I don't think that we have enough information to say yes or no yet. My thought is that it would be cool if it turns out to be a function of his new Hammer.

[Sharaman]

Can Perrin Travel now using TAR, like Slayer?

 

That's probably a RAFO, I don't think that we have enough information to say yes or no yet. My thought is that it would be cool if it turns out to be a function of his new Hammer.

No, Slayer can enter TAR in the flesh and therefore, exit in the flesh.

Perrin cannot.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

The only problem is the "Towers of Midnight" are in SEANCHAN... at the risk of quoting the glossary at the end of the book... "Towers of Midnight, the: Thirteen fortresses of unpolished black marble located in Imfaral, Seanchan. At the time of the Consolidation of Seanchan, it was the center of military might. The final battle of the consolidation took place there, leaving Hawkwing's descendants in power. Since that time it has been unoccupied. Legend has it that in time of dire need, the imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "right that which is wrong"

 

I wonder.... is it possible that the seanchan and finn towers are one and the same? that the finn are the wrong that should be made right? it would explain a fair bit.

[maradon]

the right that should be wronged has to be leashing female channelers, although I did say that asmo's killer had to be Moiraine so I'll just wait 15 months to be proved wrong.

[lsm]

i really liked Perrin's arc, after a lot of books he's finally back with a bang

 

about some things i read in this thread...

 

the dreamspike at the BT. when perrin goes to elayne, his POV mentions he wants to investigate it 'tonight' why grady wasnt able to travel there. a few days pass at least because then elayne does her thing in cairhien. then we see perrin next sending off mat, and marching his troops to the fields, and then i think last we get from perrin is rand showing up at his camp (clouds parting). so he might of investigated, but he didn't do anything and his waiting for rand - who said himself he is going to have do something about that soon, like everything else

 

i like the idea that perrin saved rand second time was there on dragonmount. while not in the real world, seeing how TAR is all the real worlds together is it a far stretch to think the dragon's super important decision would be reflected in TAR? then perrin is hoping all goes well and it does. then again his second saving of rand could very likely be a hammer in the face of some baddy about to kill rand, which i'd think would be much cooler anyway

 

i thought it odd too that nowhere was the killing of all the whitecloaks when saving gaul brought up in perrins pov ever. the WC issue has some big weight to his thinking, and even though it was somewhat self defense, after releasing a prisoner, it was a slaughter right? killing how many children of the light in one go? along the same lines of how no one cared about the horn being blown i think

 

and for the dark prophecies if they are real or not, morridin says that the men and woman who spoke them were held/hidden. so i think that implies that they real prophecies/foretellings made after the breaking, either by light AS or darkfriends, or just people with powers like Min, but either way they are real. if it means they are biased towards the dark, or just give possibilities thats another thing entirely - but they are not like the seanchan prophecies where someone apparently changed the wordings

[KoenVandendurpel]

Something about Perrin's hammer bothers me. In the book when he finished making it "Perrin Lowered his tools. On the anvil - still glowing with an inner heat - was a beautiful hammer"

This part is easy, the hammer still needs to cool down but a few lines later when he has picked it up:

"The ornamentation was of a crosshatch pattern with a laping wolf on one side It looked like Hopper. Perrin touched it with a callused thumb, and the metal quieted. It still feltwarm to the touch, but did not burn him"

 

If the metal was hot it should have burned him but it seems that the hammer sort of recognises Perrin. I know it burns shadowspawn but could this means that it burns everybody who picks it up or something else? Why would the metal quieted when he touches it?

[White_star]

i really liked Perrin's arc, after a lot of books he's finally back with a bang

So did I, it was nice to see him shine again. I kinda hope he's the one to talk sense into Egwene. I was hoping Nynaeve would do it but I guess she's bound by WT law, in which freedom of speech is not aloud (you can't tell the Amrylin(sp?) Seat to "take her stoll and shove it where the sun don't shine" for instance) But Perrin isn't bound by any WT nonsense. Perhaps that's something Mat would say though and not Perrin.

 

i like the idea that perrin saved rand second time was there on dragonmount. while not in the real world, seeing how TAR is all the real worlds together is it a far stretch to think the dragon's super important decision would be reflected in TAR? then perrin is hoping all goes well and it does. then again his second saving of rand could very likely be a hammer in the face of some baddy about to kill rand, which i'd think would be much cooler anyway

Didn't Min say Perrin had to be there or women who can channel would/will do something very bad to Rand? I don't think that second time has happened yet.

 

Cheers!

[Rookie.Rider]

For the most part, Perrin's arc was the best. We learned that balefire can be stopped. A fact which may play significantly in this turning of the Wheel.

 

There are differences between Lews Therin's circumstances during the AoL, and the present day. LTT did not, as far as we know, have access to someone like Perrin, or Mat back then. If he did, it would be interesting to learn who they were back then.

[Muad Cheade]

For the most part, Perrin's arc was the best. We learned that balefire can be stopped. A fact which may play significantly in this turning of the Wheel.

It can only be stopped in the World of Dreams.

[kristineaskada]

I loved Perrin's turn in this book. It was ever so much better than he was before, I was starting to skip over anything to do with Perrin because of the way he acted. The only thing about the hammer is that it seemed like a complete and total copy of the same scene in other books I've read. It was awesome, and about time that the power-wielded weapons made a comeback. But I was disappointed that I had just read that same exact scene in another book. RJ is my level of expectation from other books so I didn't like that he copied from someone else. : (

[MauricXe]

Hopper's death was very sad.

 

It was mentioned that some of the wolf training could have been cut.

 

I wished he had killed Slayer.

[Ananta]

Up until this book I've hated Perrin. I've found him annoyingly Emo and annoying. This book changed it all, finally I started to like the man and I didn't hope that someone would just stab him in the back and be done with it.

 

His "OH MAI GAWD IM TURNING WOLF LOL" was getting stupid and it was dragged on for too long. Now that he's done with that he's likable. Also finally accepting that he's leader not just a blacksmith was good. That too was dragged on for way too long.

 

I think it was stupid that Slayer was bested by a nightmare. True, he had some reasoning behind that, Slayer was supposed to be one of the pro people in TAR. One would think he'd trained some nightmare banishing before.

 

I loved the amount of control Perrin had over TAR. I just wonder how Egwene hadn't figure out that she can just imagine the weaves away. One would think that that's the first thing the dreamwalkers figured out.

 

The scene where Perrin made his hammer was pretty intense, too. I liked it a lot.

 

 

 

Now I'm waiting for Hopper to be somehow turned into Darkhound and somehow breaking free of the "shadows" hold on him and turning good when he meets Perrin again.

 

Or maybe Hopper ends up killing Perrin because Perrin simply can not raise a weapon against him xD

[StooBush]

The timelines on the algiarin attack and the sheer size of the force has always been a problem for analysis.

We've seen that Waygates aren't that wide. One horse at a time is what we've seen.

Say a max of 3 trollocs side by side and 36 trollocs/ minute (12 ranks @5 seconds a rank)?

If you're talking 100,000 trollocs, you take 48 hours just to get the formation into a Waygate.

Then they march for a couple of days and march out again, taking two days to simply exit at destination.

This assumes machin shin doesn't attack and cause further delays/ attrition.

Now look at the timelines for Moridin telling the Forsaken and the attack on Algiarin's Manor - it doesn't add up unless he's deliberately delayed telling anyone about it.

 

Moridin calls that meeting on day 739. The attack happens on day 745. So 6 days between when the meeting is called and the attack.

 

The Trolloc attack was pretty obviously sent to kill Rand before he could Cleanse saidin ( as a result of the previous meeting on day 696 ), and the Cleansing had already happened on day 716, so "Sammael" sent them into the Ways sometime after day 696 and before day 716. Just for giggles let's guess that the Trollocs began entering the Ways on day 711. That gives them 34 days to get to the Waygate nearest Algiarin's Manor and then overland to the Manor and attack. I'd guess that is doable.

 

Why Moridin waited so long to tell the others about it is unknown.

 

Where is the timeline being maintained? That 739/745 doesn't seem to jive with the chronology on stevenac.net.

 

I've no problem with the temporal back-and-forth, but the only part of the timeline I can't seem to wrap my head around is how Perrin is able to see Rand atop Dragonmount in the wolfdream well after he destroys the dreamspike. Rand is on top of Dragonmount after Egwene ascends (formally) to the Amyrlin Seat at the end of TGS. Then she has all of the activities in her timeline during ToM, during which Perrin's timeline intersects hers, which is well after Rand finishes atop Dragonmount (one or two weeks worth of Bloodknives killing folks in the tower).

 

My only guess is that Rand's reflection in T'A'R is delayed, of sorts, from in the waking world. It's possible, I suppose, but it's not well explained.

 

Anyone out there care to set me straight?

 

Thanks,

-S

[Nooska]

The timelines on the algiarin attack and the sheer size of the force has always been a problem for analysis.

We've seen that Waygates aren't that wide. One horse at a time is what we've seen.

Say a max of 3 trollocs side by side and 36 trollocs/ minute (12 ranks @5 seconds a rank)?

If you're talking 100,000 trollocs, you take 48 hours just to get the formation into a Waygate.

Then they march for a couple of days and march out again, taking two days to simply exit at destination.

This assumes machin shin doesn't attack and cause further delays/ attrition.

Now look at the timelines for Moridin telling the Forsaken and the attack on Algiarin's Manor - it doesn't add up unless he's deliberately delayed telling anyone about it.

 

Moridin calls that meeting on day 739. The attack happens on day 745. So 6 days between when the meeting is called and the attack.

 

The Trolloc attack was pretty obviously sent to kill Rand before he could Cleanse saidin ( as a result of the previous meeting on day 696 ), and the Cleansing had already happened on day 716, so "Sammael" sent them into the Ways sometime after day 696 and before day 716. Just for giggles let's guess that the Trollocs began entering the Ways on day 711. That gives them 34 days to get to the Waygate nearest Algiarin's Manor and then overland to the Manor and attack. I'd guess that is doable.

 

Why Moridin waited so long to tell the others about it is unknown.

 

Where is the timeline being maintained? That 739/745 doesn't seem to jive with the chronology on stevenac.net.

 

I've no problem with the temporal back-and-forth, but the only part of the timeline I can't seem to wrap my head around is how Perrin is able to see Rand atop Dragonmount in the wolfdream well after he destroys the dreamspike. Rand is on top of Dragonmount after Egwene ascends (formally) to the Amyrlin Seat at the end of TGS. Then she has all of the activities in her timeline during ToM, during which Perrin's timeline intersects hers, which is well after Rand finishes atop Dragonmount (one or two weeks worth of Bloodknives killing folks in the tower).

 

My only guess is that Rand's reflection in T'A'R is delayed, of sorts, from in the waking world. It's possible, I suppose, but it's not well explained.

 

Anyone out there care to set me straight?

 

Thanks,

-S

Yeah, thats a misremembering on your part. On my current reread I've just passed Perrin at DM watching Rand, and he has yet to destroy (actually he has yet to encounter) the dreamspike at this point.

[David Selig]

Perrin saw Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount in Ch. 30 of ToM "Men Dream Here". He destroyed the dreamspike in Ch. 38 "Wounds"

 

So there's no problem.

[StooBush]

The timelines on the algiarin attack and the sheer size of the force has always been a problem for analysis.

We've seen that Waygates aren't that wide. One horse at a time is what we've seen.

Say a max of 3 trollocs side by side and 36 trollocs/ minute (12 ranks @5 seconds a rank)?

If you're talking 100,000 trollocs, you take 48 hours just to get the formation into a Waygate.

Then they march for a couple of days and march out again, taking two days to simply exit at destination.

This assumes machin shin doesn't attack and cause further delays/ attrition.

Now look at the timelines for Moridin telling the Forsaken and the attack on Algiarin's Manor - it doesn't add up unless he's deliberately delayed telling anyone about it.

 

Moridin calls that meeting on day 739. The attack happens on day 745. So 6 days between when the meeting is called and the attack.

 

The Trolloc attack was pretty obviously sent to kill Rand before he could Cleanse saidin ( as a result of the previous meeting on day 696 ), and the Cleansing had already happened on day 716, so "Sammael" sent them into the Ways sometime after day 696 and before day 716. Just for giggles let's guess that the Trollocs began entering the Ways on day 711. That gives them 34 days to get to the Waygate nearest Algiarin's Manor and then overland to the Manor and attack. I'd guess that is doable.

 

Why Moridin waited so long to tell the others about it is unknown.

 

Where is the timeline being maintained? That 739/745 doesn't seem to jive with the chronology on stevenac.net.

 

I've no problem with the temporal back-and-forth, but the only part of the timeline I can't seem to wrap my head around is how Perrin is able to see Rand atop Dragonmount in the wolfdream well after he destroys the dreamspike. Rand is on top of Dragonmount after Egwene ascends (formally) to the Amyrlin Seat at the end of TGS. Then she has all of the activities in her timeline during ToM, during which Perrin's timeline intersects hers, which is well after Rand finishes atop Dragonmount (one or two weeks worth of Bloodknives killing folks in the tower).

 

My only guess is that Rand's reflection in T'A'R is delayed, of sorts, from in the waking world. It's possible, I suppose, but it's not well explained.

 

Anyone out there care to set me straight?

 

Thanks,

-S

Yeah, thats a misremembering on your part. On my current reread I've just passed Perrin at DM watching Rand, and he has yet to destroy (actually he has yet to encounter) the dreamspike at this point.

 

Wow, don't know how I misremembered the chronology so badly...for some reason I thought it was at the end of the book in some kind of parallel structure to TGS. Guess I'll have to get moving on listening to the audiobook. It'd probably be worthwhile to re-edit the audiobooks to the last 3 novels (or more?) into proper chronological order once the whole thing is done. I think there are a few time-shifts mid-chapter in the two books, especially in the prologues, but mostly it's chapter-based, so it'd be easy.

 

-S