World's End Mafia - town wins comprehensively

[Zander?]

 

 

 

I have to say Pizza, the lack of huge numbers of words in your posts is disturbing.

 

As for hours to real chat, the time this is posted for maybe 3-4 hours would be best for me.

 

 

Yep noticing this as well.

 

 

ok that scewed up   this is a zander quote

 

 

 

You DO realize that len was moaning about pizzas long wordy quotes last game right? I think he even asked pizza to cut them down.  I THINK   could be wrong    that you zander agreed last game about this.

 

Pizza then does this and you both give him grief for it.  Make up ure minds

 

 

Still has nothing to do with the fact that it certainly can be a Meta based tell.  He's not doing the same posting type as Town!Pizza, is something that I pick up on and notice.

[BFG]

 

BFG are you a villager?

You can be honest with me. I promise. If you are I want to work together with you.

 

My answer is BFG is a villager.

 

Zanders missing part of the BFG Town equation as she pointed out. Yes WOTS are part of it but its the TONE bro. theres a certain tone to her Wots as town. Trust me I learnt the hard way

 

 

 

 

Slots I am currently having the most trouble with:

 

Pizza

Dice

 

Besie

Nolder

Nikon

Shad

 

Tina

 

The more I can figure out these seven players the better shape we are going to be by EoD.

 

So lets talk.

 

I'll start. I THINK ure town but i have one concern. You said at game start that we were getting full on hard in the paint cory. But then u kinda sat back for a while. Then u came back harder.

Now ive seen hardball cory and sit back cory as town    sit back is iur for a while there you were actively trying not to town lead as much cause of whinging.  this feels like that. 

 

But my issue is that effectively you said one thing but did another.

 

Yet you had an early town read on Cory?

 

(in an effort to avoid a semantics debate, a town read is implied here when you say 'add to the pile'

 

 

 

If anyone is curious since I'll be blabbering a lot.

 

In general I would say people I feel I read well in this game, and will usually have their correct alignment by the end of d1:

 

Dice

Zander

Tina 

 

BFG

 

 

In general I would say people I feel I read ~okay in this game and should have at least an okay bead on:

 

 

Sooh

 

Lenlo

Nolder

 

Shad_

Pizza

 

The rest are all people I have no familiarity with and for the most part am going to struggle to read accurately.

 

Will you hate me if I say that a bad read on Dice, Tina or myself is something that I look for as a 'tell'

 

 

 

I disagree with bFG here and its a small point of concern because maybe im just not clear enuff but you cory reads me VERY well. To the point that i was scum and being town read by EVERYone then u subbed in and i knew i was boned. You went straight for me and got me lynched.

 

Not sure what you mean here? What are you disagreeing with?

[Zander?]

So do you think Lenlo is a wolf or what?

 

Still willing to listen to other people's takes on that slot as he's not someone I am 100% confident of my ability to read

 

What do you think about how quickly things built up on Len Cory, thats one big thing making me fret.

[Zander?]

try a later post len

 

 

 

@ cory Im stating to think hes being too thick to be a wolf. but he is REALLY annoying me for some reason so i am not the best judge atm.

 

 

as such

 

unvote

 

I honestly dont know if this unvote makes me feel better or worse about you.

[Cory Caboose]

 

So do you think Lenlo is a wolf or what?

 

Still willing to listen to other people's takes on that slot as he's not someone I am 100% confident of my ability to read

 

What do you think about how quickly things built up on Len Cory, thats one big thing making me fret.

 

 

I pretty much never bother to consider "how quick a wagon built up" in favor of just reading people for what they do.

 

Just not the kind of thing I feel is important in general, but different strokes

[Zander?]

 

 

Dice, that post was a joke. Atleast I meant it to be one. I do not actually think the number of words Pizza chooses to use is indicative.

So what do you make of Zander using the same reasoning?

 

Is Zander using it as a legit reason to push Pizza? Cause if so its not good imo. Even if it was, Pizza has since then begun putting alot of words into his posts so its kinda moot.

 

 

2 things:

 

1st) BFG only notes part of my argument on Pizza.

 

2nd) Not reading the thread or what man? Also its a pretty easy adjustment to make.  So not entirely moot imo.

[Zander?]

 

 

So do you think Lenlo is a wolf or what?

 

Still willing to listen to other people's takes on that slot as he's not someone I am 100% confident of my ability to read

 

What do you think about how quickly things built up on Len Cory, thats one big thing making me fret.

 

 

I pretty much never bother to consider "how quick a wagon built up" in favor of just reading people for what they do.

 

Just not the kind of thing I feel is important in general, but different strokes

 

 

Fair enough.

 

FWIW i dont feel hes really posting the same as any of his last 3 games as he was Town Scum and 3rd party lololololol

[Lenlo]

Ive read the thread, but ive only seen your gradual build up to the conclusion that Pizza is scummy. I dont remember you ever posting a whole case. Its fine with me, I still think your town, its just thats not something I would use to push Pizza.

[Shad_]

 

 

len i dont think the double vc thing will work til at least n3

 

untill then we are still guessing who the mafia bar slips or a big piece of luck

Why not? Assuming we get flip information, then we know who we lynched is town and who is scum. Then we read their debates/voting process. If we lynch a town D1 then they should follow the will of the town majority and with their 1 vote NK whoever we vote for.

 

Yeah sure we are guessing, but we are making just as educated guesses as we do lynches ITT while at the same time denying mafia control of the NK. I dont see how any of that is bad for town.

 

 

This can happen by accident a lot of the time, why is it a priority for you to make it happen?

 

There's no conscious effort required to make a townie die, it's going to happen by default if we don't lynch a scumbag, which is how we win the game. So either we lynch a scumbag on day one which is fantastic and the point of play and what we're trying to achieve, or we fail at that task and then said townie tries to shoot a scum.

 

Here's the bottom line: I am accusing you of suggesting this, because you want it to work to your advantage either way.

 

You want to lynch a townie, and if you do, you want them to kill another townie, by going with the majority of townies who are lost, plus scum's votes which will assist them in being lost, or you are trying to gain townie credits starting day two for pointing at scumbags day one with your second choice "vote".

 

Either way, your aim is to look townie, by suggesting things that will work out just fine for you as scum.

 

Yuck. 100% yuck.

 

 

Red I'm not sure I follow here.  I mean of course if he's scum he wants to kill town players, but how would essentially obligating a town vig to shoot a majority consensus target rather than firing rogue benefit scum?

[Lenlo]

 

 

 

So do you think Lenlo is a wolf or what?

 

Still willing to listen to other people's takes on that slot as he's not someone I am 100% confident of my ability to read

 

What do you think about how quickly things built up on Len Cory, thats one big thing making me fret.

 

 

I pretty much never bother to consider "how quick a wagon built up" in favor of just reading people for what they do.

 

Just not the kind of thing I feel is important in general, but different strokes

 

 

Fair enough.

 

FWIW i dont feel hes really posting the same as any of his last 3 games as he was Town Scum and 3rd party lololololol

 

Maybe im a *gasp* 4th party

[Zander?]

 

 

 

 

So do you think Lenlo is a wolf or what?

 

Still willing to listen to other people's takes on that slot as he's not someone I am 100% confident of my ability to read

 

What do you think about how quickly things built up on Len Cory, thats one big thing making me fret.

 

 

I pretty much never bother to consider "how quick a wagon built up" in favor of just reading people for what they do.

 

Just not the kind of thing I feel is important in general, but different strokes

 

 

Fair enough.

 

FWIW i dont feel hes really posting the same as any of his last 3 games as he was Town Scum and 3rd party lololololol

 

Maybe im a *gasp* 4th party

 

 

Then march yourself back to the 4th Dimension!!!!!!

 

 

lolololololololol

[BFG]

 

 

<snip>

 

Red you obviously never saw me play with Tommy. He was IMPOSSIBLE to lynch D1   even when he claimed mafia roleblocker and Galactus in his first posts.

Uhm, Tommy was town that game :p

 

 

 

[BFG]

 

 

Dice, that post was a joke. Atleast I meant it to be one. I do not actually think the number of words Pizza chooses to use is indicative.

So what do you make of Zander using the same reasoning?

 

Is Zander using it as a legit reason to push Pizza? Cause if so its not good imo. Even if it was, Pizza has since then begun putting alot of words into his posts so its kinda moot.

 

It's part of his case from what I can tell

[Shad_]

 

I dont understand why you are fighting this.

 

We lynch Town D1 - We control the mafia NK hopefully, kill the scummiest person by thread consensus.

 

We lynch Scum D1 - Scum get to control the N1 NK, game continues as normal.

 

Yeah your right, D1/N1 scum lynchs/vigs are uncommon. But it doesnt matter if we arnt using a vig shot. We are using the mafias own NK. Seriously we pick a name out of a freaking hat, 25% change to get mafia on the lynch, 27% chance on the NK.

 

IN WHAT WORLD DOES KEEPING TWO VCS TODAY HURT TOWN?

 

Bolded- Manipulation of perception, and a heads-up to the scum when distancing from fellow wolves would be appropriate.

A person is hard to fool, but people are easy to fool. People absorb the consensus when they are at a loss for a good idea on their own, and it's easier for wolves to hide within consensus. And wolves have a leg up on individual townies when it comes to manipulating perceptions or consensus because they're not operating solo, but as a tightly-knit unit.

 

You're taking an absolute position here on a grey bit of morality. In principle, it's better for town to hunt with more information, but mafia have ways of manipulating that information, and the opinions of others.

 

Now that you've made a stand on this hill with the all-caps, you're attempting to sound townier than others, as if there's no room for nuanced disagreement. That's a scummy motivation and it should hang you.

 

 

Ok, I guess I could have kept reading.  I don't think it's a bad idea so much as significantly less beneficial than it appears on the surface--half of town will give a non-committal second choice because we tend to process information one flip at a time, and unless scum are dumb enough to start railing them for it it's not going to amount to much.

 

But I think you're reasoning here is kind of weird.  I mean, everyone already does this to an extent through reads lists.  We all routinely express where we stand on everyone else in the game and why so that scum can't opportunistically dive on the easiest mislynch of the moment.  (Last time Kivam scummed here he lolololol suggested no one post their town reads.  One player was basically forced to reveal as IC after he flipped for rolling with it.)  Any wolf is going to have a general feel for where town is headed and can fake reads that more or less align with consensus.  I don't see where what you're arguing is special in relation to Lenlo's "second VC" idea.

[BFG]

 

 

 

BFG I hope you have me as a firm townread because I don't think I've villaged with you in a really long time and honestly I'm just plain old excited for it

 

You have been making a pristine amount of sense this game and stuff like that makes things so much easier for me to see and keeps me levelheaded and motivated

Ok, I've liked most of your posting today, I just have an uneasy feeling from yesterday I need to work out what it means.

 

I don't know if I can actually explain what made me uneasy about the posts below, I think it's similar to the issue with Pizza, you were say don't show and I'm far more used to your town game being show (and also tell). Different today, but it takes me a while to shift bad feelings. You also seemed slow to start, compared to say Ragnarok, but that's probably the most obvious town you've ever been lol.

 

There's part of me that's also been waiting for Zander to ask me to explain my unease on you /shrug

 

 

Basically at the moment I'm rolling with you as town, waiting for Tina to come back in thread, and watching you like a hawk <3

 

 

 

 

 

i already have like three players i think are villagers in a 12 player game

 

should i approach this as a turbo and see if i can solve it in another 15 minutes?

 

 

dice has been active - which is nice - but i don't know if he's done anything that i would consider villagery of him to do.

 

don't know if i can trust him yet.

 

going to start going through the thread for real now. we're still a little low on content but gotta start somewhere.

 

 

Shad I don't disagree in general to that post readwise, but I'm not going to expand on anything just yet.

 

I know your faith in me is probably low considering you've never seen me as a villager but I'd highly recommend you abandon your recency bias because I at least believe my village game is a great deal stronger than my wolf game and I think at least a few people here that know me would agree. Fear of my wolf game gives you exactly zero reason to ignore my reads when I am a villager and is perhaps my greatest pet peeve when I am one.

 

If I do something you feel is wolfy, call it out, but I will take very poorly to any attempts to say "Cory is villagery but he's villagery as a wolf so I'm not going to listen to him" because I'm also villagery as a villager and I put out an exhaustive effort to get games right because I'm a weird overdedicated perfectionist with a lot of time.

 

 

I actually decided not to post that because I didn't want to be too mean to Lenlo but forgot to erase it when quoting another post

 

A glimpse into the mind of a jerk

 

Lenlo ILU and I hope you had a merry christmas :) also I'm happy with your level of play so far in terms of my ability to read you so keep doing what you are dong :)

 

 

 

Cory give me a straight up #SOULREAD

Not quite yet friend

 

Not quite yet :P

 

 

General turning point below

 

I actually have Lenlo as a villager by a relatively fair margin

 

But I'm not going to intervene yet, just make sure not to hammer, I think he's L-2 or L-3 and this is a hybrid hammer game

 

Probably the last post I've felt iffy about...

 

You'll get there with me, I promise.

 

Zander is no longer my top villager, he's probably in a list of about 3-4. I would still guess he's a villager. There are some early game tone tidbits I like and the fact is I think I just generally read him well off tone and attitude because he sort of can't hide his brainwaves from me. I just usually know what his alignment is after reading a bunch of his posts. He wolfed against me in a turbo pretty recently and I just sort of knew he was a wolf about three or four minutes in because it just seemed really obvious to me. I think some of that is just the weird player type pattern recognition that sort of draws out my reads that comes with basically remember what every single person posted in every single mafia game they've ever played.

 

With that said I'm not as secure in that read as I could be and I wouldn't put him in blue yet. Still looking for more from him that I associate with his villager game, not really there just yet.

 

 

 

Why BFG?  Someone being uneasy about Cory Day 1 isnt a huge shock to me.  But if it makes you feel any better....why the unease about Cory my dear???!!!

 

Because you've questioned everything else, seems odd to leave this out

 

Just a curiosity about your posting, nothing more.

 

And I explained as best I could in the post you quoted

[BFG]

 

 

 

Dice, that post was a joke. Atleast I meant it to be one. I do not actually think the number of words Pizza chooses to use is indicative.

So what do you make of Zander using the same reasoning?

 

Is Zander using it as a legit reason to push Pizza? Cause if so its not good imo. Even if it was, Pizza has since then begun putting alot of words into his posts so its kinda moot.

 

 

2 things:

 

1st) BFG only notes part of my argument on Pizza.

 

2nd) Not reading the thread or what man? Also its a pretty easy adjustment to make.  So not entirely moot imo.

 

The part that was relevant to the point in question

[BFG]

Anyway I keep dozing off, I'll see you in the morning :)

[Cory Caboose]

goodnight BFG :)

[Cory Caboose]

Tom was town when he claimed Galactus but was Mafia when he claimed Mafia Roleblocker fwiw. First was Mynd's Marvel game, second was Tress' Wind In The Door

 

- corky the mafia database man

[Shad_]

Kind of loving Besie's entry on p15.  I feel like she's put more effort into looking around and analyzing people in this game than in the entirety of Diablo already.

[Shad_]

Tom was town when he claimed Galactus but was Mafia when he claimed Mafia Roleblocker fwiw. First was Mynd's Marvel game, second was Tress' Wind In The Door

 

- corky the mafia database man

 

But I literally have a DM mafia database now.    

[Shad_]

 

 

I am also all caught up, but I have to stop playing for a while.

 

See you in many hours.

 

Current lean

 

Askthepizzaguy (Oh hai! I put myself at the top of my own list again!)

Dice +11 ** Some counterindicators/worries about deepwolfin, but feel even stronger about Dice's opening in general than last game which was a solid townread

Cory +9 Villagery af

Zander +9 so many null posts because you're you. Still, it's nice to see you're villaging again.

BFG +3 Looking better than last game. :)

BlomBesie +1 I need more time to read you.

Nikon +0 Nothing bad, think you're town but I can't base that on much yet.

Nolder 0 <--------Most of Nolder's stuff is within the past several posts and I haven't sat and mulled them yet. Preliminary: Looks good! Probably above Besie!

Tina -1 Early bad stuff (2 posts) mitigated a bit, possible distancing from Lenlo in progress. But, hey, looking better.

Shad -1 POE and didn't like his opener post. Should be null but it's not null.

Sooh -6 Nulls and questionable posts and outright weirdness. I need more villageriness.

Lenlo -18 He's at about 95% of where BFG was last game already. It's all been bad, every one. I stopped giving him scum points at a certain point because there was little point.

 

 

What differences have you picked up on from BFG this game?  I aint seen anything really different atp.

 

I'm curious about this too.  NBC she was basically only guilty of a bad EoD1 vote and POE due to low activity imo.

[Nolder]

Been napping now I'm off to dinner.

Before I do..

 

[v]Sooh[/v]

[Shad_]

Shad, Pizzas intro didnt bother me. I was simply agreeing with Dice that its not bad to judge someone based off their OP, like Sooh was suggesting.

 

TBH 2/3 of the games I play in I make my OP before checking my role PM.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Okay, Sooh time and GoT are over for the night.

 

It's almost 3am where I am, this won't happen often. But I am excited about my part to play. ;)