World's End Mafia - town wins comprehensively

[dicetosser1]

just did it cory   had big catch up this morning

[dicetosser1]

 

Pizza how would you respond to me saying:

"My name is Corky and I traditionally read dice very, very well and Lenlo well enough for it to have merit. After reading this game thread I think Dice is more likely than Lenlo to be a wolf by a significant margin."

 

MY response is..

 

... Are you going to tell me I'm wrong?

 

 

Yes you are wrong. Im town. I might bully zander a bit but im  town

[Zander?]

I'm very tired so I'll be back tomorrow.

 

Just going to [v]Unvote[/v] until I've caught up tomorrow.

 

Goodnight my dear and look forward to your catch up!!!!

 

 

 

Ollie gave me a flu today.  Considerate kid.

 

I'm pretty blllalaagghhhhh from the meds right now, did a quick skim, kind of tempted to call Sooh town just for her quick start.  Got a similar vibe from Dice.  Cory/Pizza/Zander coming in with apparent motivation doesn't mean jack to me at this point.  My brain started melting the further I read and I have to Christmas all day tomorrow too, so I'll hold off and give a full-over from the start hopefully tomorrow night.

 

 

I look forward to more.  In relation to me Cory and Pizza.  Any feels on leans at all with any of us?

 

 

I think you've been generally looking around more than you do as scum, and I think scum!Zander usually pounces on Dice harder than you did earlier, even if the two of you were team mates.  Cory hasn't done anything to bother me in the slightest.  You can both be D1 town.  I'm entirely null on Pizza so far.

 

 

ok thank you for answering.

 

 

Going to go watch stuff and sleep, and I'll be back in the morning.

 

 

night Sooh!!!!!!

[dicetosser1]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wasnt trying to put words on your mouth brother, but a Good Sign is pretty obv an indicator of you thinking its coming from what you perceive as a Town Cory post though right?

I just dont feel that it would be alignment indicative of Cory imo.

Also was looking for a response from you. 

and you just did it again.

vote zander

 

This is odd. I dont feel like a wolf, especially wolf dice, would go for someone like Zander immediately off something like this. Its just so... weak. Like "putting words in someones mouth", when its something as minor as this, is a horrible push. So bad it might actually come from a townie, but I dunno. From what I read no one else seems to have a problem with it. Either that or no one has bothered to comment on it yet.

 

Why "especially wolf dice"?

This is the post iirc that had me scum reading him early in Matrix, prior to his fight with Nomi where I derpcleared him:

 

Thane was also mafia with you in arthurian mafia, Yates. Iirc he was mostly inactive and oated by. Not vastly different from star wars.

Whoever asked about Hallia - shes been less active her past few games, and was mafia in a couple, but she wasn't overly active in a town game. My key with her isn't the number of posts but how she's using them. Town Hallia is usually (slighty) more forthcoming with reads and some sort of justification.

When she doesn't say anything or doesn't really back anything is when I worry.

So we are giving road maps for Hally to use to avoid things if she is mafia now? Noted

 

You've played with Dice a good bit lately. Elaborate on how strength of arguments factors in to how you read him.

 

But I was asking why you singled out Dice as someone unlikely to present weak reasoning as scum. Failing to grasp my question is kind of null for you, but I'm struggling to see a consistent thought process here.

 

Cause Dice was the first one to try and push someone with weak arguments? Like I get what your saying. I dont think Dice as scum would gun for someone like Zander, who is usually universally town read D1 and neigh impossible to lynch, on D1 with such weak arguments. Its a recipe for disaster and I dont think scum Dice would risk doing that.

 

 

 

Red you obviously never saw me play with Tommy. He was IMPOSSIBLE to lynch D1   even when he claimed mafia roleblocker and Galactus in his first posts.

[dicetosser1]

 

Strength of argument factors rather importantly to my read of everyone Shad. And his have been particularly weak this game. "Zander annoyed me" "Your ignoring my opinion" "Your math is wrong"

 

 

If your gonna wehinge about the strength of my arguments how about you get them right?? ESPECIALLY when I have addressed them and TOLD you that wasnt it? I even laid out a bunch of stuff regarding the second one

[Lenlo]

 

 

Strength of argument factors rather importantly to my read of everyone Shad. And his have been particularly weak this game. "Zander annoyed me" "Your ignoring my opinion" "Your math is wrong"

 

 

If your gonna wehinge about the strength of my arguments how about you get them right?? ESPECIALLY when I have addressed them and TOLD you that wasnt it? I even laid out a bunch of stuff regarding the second one

 

Humor me then. Do it again. In the post you voted me, it all "Your ignoring my opinion".

 

As for the Tommy thing, I couldnt care less. I wasnt in the game. I havnt read the game. The game means nothing to me.

[dicetosser1]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i ignored the sheep and scummers on my way
what can their small words say, when they say them that way?
bathed in sweat, feathered as a crow.
i laid a beating of the sleet and snow with my frostbitten toes.
i remain unrecognized in my hometown
beneath my monstrous gown of feathery down
but i've gathered up an army made of those
who aim to shake them from their repose
so what say you and all your friends 
meet all of my friends
in the alley tonight?

 
im happy to see this

 

 
How can you think this is in anyway shape or form indicative of Cory's alignment???

 

 
first off did i say that? Dont put words in my mouth zander. I cant remember cory doing this for quite a while and am actually happy and smiling when i read it.
 
then there is the fact that i dont think ive ever seen him do it as mafia. is that something to rely on?  only if i wanna get screwed over but id IS evidence i can add to the pile

 

He made posts like that in Matrix, no?

 

 

Shad who is HE??  can u do me a fava   cause theres another post like this    when u quote a bunch of people    or one big quote with a number of people in it can you SAY tHE NAME of who ure talking about? it gets confusing

 

 

 

 

 

 

LOL Dice! Hi everyone 

 
 
Are you town????!!!!

 

 
we may need to leave her alive a couple of days even if she isnt. We need to get some tells for her...

 

The bold actually doesnt sit right with me. Leave her alive even if she isnt town? Are you saying you know she isnt town, that if we somehow mechanically find her to be scum we shouldnt lynch her or what? Cause if we know she isnt town wouldnt that mean we already found tells/errors in her play? This doesnt sit right with me Dice.

 

Red is a pretty extreme stretch mate.  Curious how Dice responds to this.

 

 

I already told him i was joking and i ignored the red cause its stupid. Even IF i was scum Id still lynch her with a guilty view claimed. thats mafia 101

 

[Cory Caboose]

So lets talk.

 

I'll start. I THINK ure town but i have one concern. You said at game start that we were getting full on hard in the paint cory. But then u kinda sat back for a while. Then u came back harder.

Now ive seen hardball cory and sit back cory as town    sit back is iur for a while there you were actively trying not to town lead as much cause of whinging.  this feels like that. 

 

But my issue is that effectively you said one thing but did another.

 

Dice's eyes only:

 

 

This is just a reflexive part of my village game when I feel comfortable with the general thread direction. Christmas also played into it, but I did and still am trying to forego a full leadership role aorn so that's not a bad pickup. The rest is something very similar to what I said to AJ in HoC but I'll paraphrase:

 

When I don't have to be actively worried that town is going to drive itself off a cliff, I formulate much more accurate reads when I get a chance to view what people do of their own volition. The more I interfere and lay down my expectations the more people know how to react to it and I think my best work comes seeing what people do naturally; this is something I learned mentoring newer players, where without my own early pushes I had a great gameview and could see where people were coming from and what they were doing to try and solve the game in their own way.

 

There are times I can't do this as I feel my presence is required to organize people early, but I don't feel that at all here as we have a lot of competent players and several who I expect to be villagers (BFG/Zander are good examples).

 

The aside to this is that as a villager I am at some point going to put my foot down and start organizing and talking to people in a more drastic manner (when I feel the situation has higher equity), something that has sort of already started. I think the element of my game you are looking for is the sort of abrasive and commandeering side to my play that comes out when I feel I need to start making decisions for the village rather than letting them decide for themselves. Which can be unsightly and unwanted at times but has proven necessary more than once. Right now that's happily dormant.

 

I don't think this is anything you don't already know about me, anyway. I tend to be more "involved" closer to EoD in either role at least, but especially as a villager.

 

 

I don't know if that's the answer you are looking for, but I can confirm it's the truth.

[Cory Caboose]

 To the point that i was scum and being town read by EVERYone then u subbed in and i knew i was boned. You went straight for me and got me lynched.

 

 

[dicetosser1]

 

 

 

Strength of argument factors rather importantly to my read of everyone Shad. And his have been particularly weak this game. "Zander annoyed me" "Your ignoring my opinion" "Your math is wrong"

 

 

If your gonna wehinge about the strength of my arguments how about you get them right?? ESPECIALLY when I have addressed them and TOLD you that wasnt it? I even laid out a bunch of stuff regarding the second one

 

Humor me then. Do it again. In the post you voted me, it all "Your ignoring my opinion".

 

As for the Tommy thing, I couldnt care less. I wasnt in the game. I havnt read the game. The game means nothing to me.

 

 

No. Do your own reading and try to remember it.

 

I gave 3 or 4 reasons that were about why i was voting YOU. You would think that someone would actually pay attention to the reasons why someone    someone theyve been arguing with   gave for voting them

[dicetosser1]

@ cory fair enuff.

 

actually one of the key things i look for in town cory is core building. not aggression. there has been some of that. youre speaking to BFG particularly reminds me of town cory from a while ago

 

 

I was just noting a difference between whats said and what happened but its not enuff to put you on a scummy end of a list

[Cory Caboose]

dice trending up

[Lenlo]

 

len i dont think the double vc thing will work til at least n3

 

untill then we are still guessing who the mafia bar slips or a big piece of luck

 

 

 

 

len i dont think the double vc thing will work til at least n3

 

untill then we are still guessing who the mafia bar slips or a big piece of luck

Why not? Assuming we get flip information, then we know who we lynched is town and who is scum. Then we read their debates/voting process. If we lynch a town D1 then they should follow the will of the town majority and with their 1 vote NK whoever we vote for.

 

Yeah sure we are guessing, but we are making just as educated guesses as we do lynches ITT while at the same time denying mafia control of the NK. I dont see how any of that is bad for town.

 

 

the red   how often do mafia get lynched d1?  itd be a low percentage dont u agree?  also tell me how often have you seen a vig shoot n1 and get scum? low percentage again?

 

the bit after the red is a fine idea  i just dont think it will really work in our favor until n2 if we are lucky but most likely n3

 

 

I GAVE you my reasoning FFS!!!!!!!  you just dont LIKE it!  Right now it seems like you have come into thread looking for any little excuse to jump on someone and lucky me is the one.

 

Zander you are now off the hook for annoying me.

 

unvote

 

vote lenlo

 

3-4 reasons Dice? Really? I see 1. 

[Cory Caboose]

So do you think Lenlo is a wolf or what?

 

Still willing to listen to other people's takes on that slot as he's not someone I am 100% confident of my ability to read

[dicetosser1]

try a later post len

 

 

 

@ cory Im stating to think hes being too thick to be a wolf. but he is REALLY annoying me for some reason so i am not the best judge atm.

 

 

as such

 

unvote

[Lenlo]

 

Anyways, since weve both weighed in on that we should set it aside until others show up and give their thoughts on it.

 

Dice, please explain you initial vote on Zander and then switch on me please. I wanna get your reasoning clearly lined out., because from what I know of them they are lacking. Id also appreciate your thoughts on other people if you have them.

 

Zander was putting words in my mouth when called on it was all like oh ok   but im still right. 

 

he annoyed me but that wasnt why i voted him.

 

you come in hemming AND HAWING ON ME PRETTY MUCH FROM THE OUTSET. (caps srry)  one minute im townish then im not.

 

you ask for opinions on an idea but when i give you one you jump all over me because you dont agree with it

 

then when i do vote you you call me out on what i said to Zander. the annoyance comment. which has nothing to do wqith tghe vote and is simply telling him he isnt annoying me the most now. You are.

 

then the tone of ure posts is off. Its not the same as last game where i correctly cleared you very early on tone.

 

then theres the fact that i am very aware of the tactic of finding something little to grab hold of when im scum and try to use it. And you know this as you were on my team the last time i did it. the only dif is i had an extra honest out of game reason i was blowing up about as well

 

This one? Ok so we got me "hemming and hawing" on you. Ok.

We got me ignoring your opinion, guess I was right about that.

Then you try to call me out for someone after your vote me, so using something after the initial vote to justify it. Ok. Whats this? Im annoying you? Ok.

Tone of my posts is off? Well finally something to work with but its abit late dont you think? Abit late to try and justify a bad vote made when you were frustrated?

Finally this tactic of finding something little to hold onto. Are you saying I did this? Cause I wasnt pushing you over anything.

 

How about that? Its the right number of reasons, but half of them occur after the initial vote and the other half are... well weak.

[dicetosser1]

they are the reasons for the vote len no matter when they got given.

 

like em lump em i dont care

[Lenlo]

The only one with any merit is the one about Tone. So gimme some examples of my tone back then Dice. Gimme something thats off, for more reasons than it just annoys you.

 

Please.

[BFG]

Fair enough BFG 

 

I think by the time EOD rolls around I'll be just as obvious as I was in Ragnarok. Of course when you joined Ragnarok you already knew I was town since I was dead already 

 

I have a habit of reading you scummy early, it's normally fixed (when I'm paying attention anyway) by End Day 1

[Zander?]

 

OK fair enough, let me ask you this then...what did you think about my read/thoughts on her?  You've liked/agreed with some of my reads thus far.  i really think she's Town here.

 

Zander's eyes only:

 

 

If you want full honesty I have literally always had no idea how you make reads or what process you use and I probably spend more time trying to understand if you what you think is genuine rather than if it's right. Your read on Besie seems genuine, so that's what matters to me. Is it right? Time will tell.

 

With that said I respect your accuracy and you've proven that whatever approach you take, you generally make good reads. So I'll keep your read on Besie in mind as something of worth. She's certainly not on the top of my WTL list aorn either.

 

 

 

"I have literally always had no idea how you make reads or what process you use"

 

Me neither for the most part!!!!!

 

lololololololol

 

And thank you for the 2nd part <3

[BFG]

Dice, that post was a joke. Atleast I meant it to be one. I do not actually think the number of words Pizza chooses to use is indicative.

So what do you make of Zander using the same reasoning?

[Lenlo]

 

Dice, that post was a joke. Atleast I meant it to be one. I do not actually think the number of words Pizza chooses to use is indicative.

So what do you make of Zander using the same reasoning?

 

Is Zander using it as a legit reason to push Pizza? Cause if so its not good imo. Even if it was, Pizza has since then begun putting alot of words into his posts so its kinda moot.

[Zander?]

 

I know youre a Boss brother.....i just dont think you're town this game though.....sadface.gif

 

Then stand back.

 

Give me until d2. You had issues with me last game too.

 

Zander, you do well putting the suspicion in lots of places and pushing people. And when you nail it, you nail it, because you put 1000 percent into it.

 

You are like me, 3 years ago.

 

In a little while, you'll come to realize that spreading the suspicion everywhere needs to give way to finding townies and taking leaps of faith.

 

That leads to greater accuracy.

 

If you find 3 wolves on day one, but lynch a townie who was your number 4, and then die, all your WIM was mostly wasted.

 

 

Thank you but more importantly....

 

ANYTIME I LYNCH EVEN ONE WOLF NO MATTER WHAT MY WIM IS NEVER WASTED!!!!!

[Zander?]

 

BFG I hope you have me as a firm townread because I don't think I've villaged with you in a really long time and honestly I'm just plain old excited for it

 

You have been making a pristine amount of sense this game and stuff like that makes things so much easier for me to see and keeps me levelheaded and motivated

Ok, I've liked most of your posting today, I just have an uneasy feeling from yesterday I need to work out what it means.

 

I don't know if I can actually explain what made me uneasy about the posts below, I think it's similar to the issue with Pizza, you were say don't show and I'm far more used to your town game being show (and also tell). Different today, but it takes me a while to shift bad feelings. You also seemed slow to start, compared to say Ragnarok, but that's probably the most obvious town you've ever been lol.

 

There's part of me that's also been waiting for Zander to ask me to explain my unease on you /shrug

 

 

Basically at the moment I'm rolling with you as town, waiting for Tina to come back in thread, and watching you like a hawk <3

 

 

 

 

 

i already have like three players i think are villagers in a 12 player game

 

should i approach this as a turbo and see if i can solve it in another 15 minutes?

 

 

dice has been active - which is nice - but i don't know if he's done anything that i would consider villagery of him to do.

 

don't know if i can trust him yet.

 

going to start going through the thread for real now. we're still a little low on content but gotta start somewhere.

 

 

Shad I don't disagree in general to that post readwise, but I'm not going to expand on anything just yet.

 

I know your faith in me is probably low considering you've never seen me as a villager but I'd highly recommend you abandon your recency bias because I at least believe my village game is a great deal stronger than my wolf game and I think at least a few people here that know me would agree. Fear of my wolf game gives you exactly zero reason to ignore my reads when I am a villager and is perhaps my greatest pet peeve when I am one.

 

If I do something you feel is wolfy, call it out, but I will take very poorly to any attempts to say "Cory is villagery but he's villagery as a wolf so I'm not going to listen to him" because I'm also villagery as a villager and I put out an exhaustive effort to get games right because I'm a weird overdedicated perfectionist with a lot of time.

 

 

I actually decided not to post that because I didn't want to be too mean to Lenlo but forgot to erase it when quoting another post

 

A glimpse into the mind of a jerk

 

Lenlo ILU and I hope you had a merry christmas :) also I'm happy with your level of play so far in terms of my ability to read you so keep doing what you are dong :)

 

 

 

Cory give me a straight up #SOULREAD

Not quite yet friend

 

Not quite yet :P

 

 

General turning point below

 

I actually have Lenlo as a villager by a relatively fair margin

 

But I'm not going to intervene yet, just make sure not to hammer, I think he's L-2 or L-3 and this is a hybrid hammer game

 

Probably the last post I've felt iffy about...

 

You'll get there with me, I promise.

 

Zander is no longer my top villager, he's probably in a list of about 3-4. I would still guess he's a villager. There are some early game tone tidbits I like and the fact is I think I just generally read him well off tone and attitude because he sort of can't hide his brainwaves from me. I just usually know what his alignment is after reading a bunch of his posts. He wolfed against me in a turbo pretty recently and I just sort of knew he was a wolf about three or four minutes in because it just seemed really obvious to me. I think some of that is just the weird player type pattern recognition that sort of draws out my reads that comes with basically remember what every single person posted in every single mafia game they've ever played.

 

With that said I'm not as secure in that read as I could be and I wouldn't put him in blue yet. Still looking for more from him that I associate with his villager game, not really there just yet.

 

 

 

Why BFG?  Someone being uneasy about Cory Day 1 isnt a huge shock to me.  But if it makes you feel any better....why the unease about Cory my dear???!!!

[Shad_]

Alright, my wife has the baby for the night and I don't have a headache for pretty much the first time since this game started.

 

Diving back in @p12