Cleanse the Tower - Black Tower Mafia Day 2

[Thane Vakarian]

This, i think, is going to be a fast paced game. It's a shame that not everybody checked in. 

[Darthe]

Official Vote Count 1:

 

Yates (1/9): Kivam

 

Not Voting (15/16):

Tress, Tina, RTE, Dice, Thane, Len, Turin, Ithi, Tommy, Laya, WoT, Ley, Locke, AJ, Yates

 

24 Hours Remain.

 

 

 

KIVAM is the vote counter for today since he had the highest number of posts N0.

[Kivam]

well, true, anything can be used D1 to vote someone... but yah, i'm not that convinced (personal opinion). Lack of other players might have to do with that.

 

Being convinced of anything on D1 would be poor play.  I'm curious about why you feel the need to mention your lack of convicedness.  Convincedness?  Convincedhood? There really ought to be a word for "how convinced you are," don't you think?

[Thane Vakarian]

 

well, true, anything can be used D1 to vote someone... but yah, i'm not that convinced (personal opinion). Lack of other players might have to do with that.

 

Being convinced of anything on D1 would be poor play.  I'm curious about why you feel the need to mention your lack of convicedness.  Convincedness?  Convincedhood? There really ought to be a word for "how convinced you are," don't you think?

 

conviction?

[Thane Vakarian]

and, yeah, it takes a bit for me to read a game, and get my eyes on someone i find suspicious. 

 

Except for Tommy.... he's always suspicious...  

[Kivam]

 

 

well, true, anything can be used D1 to vote someone... but yah, i'm not that convinced (personal opinion). Lack of other players might have to do with that.

 

Being convinced of anything on D1 would be poor play.  I'm curious about why you feel the need to mention your lack of convicedness.  Convincedness?  Convincedhood? There really ought to be a word for "how convinced you are," don't you think?

 

conviction?

 

Considered that and rejected it. That's about how much you believe something, not how convinced you are by a particular argument.

[Thane Vakarian]

it takes some gameplay to get me convinced someone is a wolf. Or third party. That said, looking forward to other players coming in. 

[Turin Turambar]

My reasoning is fairly simple. D1 is possibly the most important info gathering day. Why cut it short? By shortening the deadline especially to less than 24 hours you sacrifice one of towns biggest advantages wrt to lynches. Our numbers advantage. With the short deadline it is nearly certain some of the non us timezone people will not be around at deadline. And those that had been active early wouldn't be able to switch a vote later as they would be asleep. Now if this were regular hammer it would likely result in s no lynch which although not optimal is better than handing mafia s free mislynch. That is what I would see happen. By setting an odd deadline it reduces town ability to control the lynch. Basically making the effective numbers more like 7-4 instead of 12-4 using standard balance. this cedes more lynch control to mafia. Add in that if we reach majority we get time back better to have more time to get people posting and taking stances. Haste makes waste.

 

As for wasting time on day one... Just say no. Do not do a bunch of silly time wasting things like banter about a made up word when you can get your point across with the established dictionary.

 

Right now suspect of kiv for the d1 is not worth trying to find mafia. RTE for his first post which read like he is very excite. (Ribs me wrong). EP for his short vote and his post to Time. Len wanted a short deadline too so throw him in that pile as well.

 

With the short time we need to get right to.it.

[Yates]

Frankly, Yates, I'm surprised that I need to point out the importance of context and its absence's impact on D1, given your strenuous arguments about the importance of context to D1 casing in Tress' game currently running on the mafia board.  I guess that inconsistency in theoretical approach to D1 could mean you're scum either here or there, huh?

Bit of a reach... You don't need to point out the importance of context. Context is what prevents the Day 1 lynch [and more importantly subsequent lynches] from being arbitrary and non-random in the first place. So there is no inconsistency here. Guess I can be Town in both games after all...

[Thane Vakarian]

Tommy, where areth thou? What's up with the mason shenanigan?

[Kivam]

My reasoning is fairly simple. D1 is possibly the most important info gathering day. Why cut it short? By shortening the deadline especially to less than 24 hours you sacrifice one of towns biggest advantages wrt to lynches. Our numbers advantage. With the short deadline it is nearly certain some of the non us timezone people will not be around at deadline. And those that had been active early wouldn't be able to switch a vote later as they would be asleep. Now if this were regular hammer it would likely result in s no lynch which although not optimal is better than handing mafia s free mislynch. That is what I would see happen. By setting an odd deadline it reduces town ability to control the lynch. Basically making the effective numbers more like 7-4 instead of 12-4 using standard balance. this cedes more lynch control to mafia. Add in that if we reach majority we get time back better to have more time to get people posting and taking stances. Haste makes waste.

 

As for wasting time on day one... Just say no. Do not do a bunch of silly time wasting things like banter about a made up word when you can get your point across with the established dictionary.

 

Right now suspect of kiv for the d1 is not worth trying to find mafia. RTE for his first post which read like he is very excite. (Ribs me wrong). EP for his short vote and his post to Time. Len wanted a short deadline too so throw him in that pile as well.

 

With the short time we need to get right to.it.

 

This is a silly argument.  With players spread across the globe, there's essentially no time limit that will ensure all players are active and around at the deadline.  So here's a thought - be active before the deadline.  Crazy, I know, but it just might work.

 

As for the red, I have to ask: why are you so certain that all of the players who would be impacted by the deadline, in your hypothetical "can't be around" world, are townies?  Absent some knowledge of who is who, why wouldn't you assume that if 5 players are impacted (your numbers), they would be 3-4 townies and 1-2 scum, which is a lot more likely given there's no particular reason for scum or town to be clustered around particular time zones?  TBH, this reads like a failure to correct for TMI

[Lenlo]

My reasoning is fairly simple. D1 is possibly the most important info gathering day. Why cut it short? By shortening the deadline especially to less than 24 hours you sacrifice one of towns biggest advantages wrt to lynches. Our numbers advantage. With the short deadline it is nearly certain some of the non us timezone people will not be around at deadline. And those that had been active early wouldn't be able to switch a vote later as they would be asleep. Now if this were regular hammer it would likely result in s no lynch which although not optimal is better than handing mafia s free mislynch. That is what I would see happen. By setting an odd deadline it reduces town ability to control the lynch. Basically making the effective numbers more like 7-4 instead of 12-4 using standard balance. this cedes more lynch control to mafia. Add in that if we reach majority we get time back better to have more time to get people posting and taking stances. Haste makes waste.

 

As for wasting time on day one... Just say no. Do not do a bunch of silly time wasting things like banter about a made up word when you can get your point across with the established dictionary.

 

Right now suspect of kiv for the d1 is not worth trying to find mafia. RTE for his first post which read like he is very excite. (Ribs me wrong). EP for his short vote and his post to Time. Len wanted a short deadline too so throw him in that pile as well.

 

With the short time we need to get right to.it.

So im in the pile because I wanted a short deadline? See the thing is we dont want long days, especially D1, because we have a limited pool of hours. Once we run out of those hours the mafia starts getting extra kills as I believe it, which is BAD. The active people are going to be active and contribute regardless of how long the day is and the inactive people are going to be inactive. anything more than 24 hours is a waste imo. Only reason I wanted 12 was cause it was D1 and D1 typically isnt very productive at all.

[Lenlo]

Personally I think we should go for short days to start with, once weve racked up some extra time with a mafia lynch or two we will have plenty of saved time for the late game, where all this extra time will really come in handy.

 

My 2 cents.

[Kivam]

 

My reasoning is fairly simple. D1 is possibly the most important info gathering day. Why cut it short? By shortening the deadline especially to less than 24 hours you sacrifice one of towns biggest advantages wrt to lynches. Our numbers advantage. With the short deadline it is nearly certain some of the non us timezone people will not be around at deadline. And those that had been active early wouldn't be able to switch a vote later as they would be asleep. Now if this were regular hammer it would likely result in s no lynch which although not optimal is better than handing mafia s free mislynch. That is what I would see happen. By setting an odd deadline it reduces town ability to control the lynch. Basically making the effective numbers more like 7-4 instead of 12-4 using standard balance. this cedes more lynch control to mafia. Add in that if we reach majority we get time back better to have more time to get people posting and taking stances. Haste makes waste.

 

As for wasting time on day one... Just say no. Do not do a bunch of silly time wasting things like banter about a made up word when you can get your point across with the established dictionary.

 

Right now suspect of kiv for the d1 is not worth trying to find mafia. RTE for his first post which read like he is very excite. (Ribs me wrong). EP for his short vote and his post to Time. Len wanted a short deadline too so throw him in that pile as well.

 

With the short time we need to get right to.it.

So im in the pile because I wanted a short deadline? See the thing is we dont want long days, especially D1, because we have a limited pool of hours. Once we run out of those hours the mafia starts getting extra kills as I believe it, which is BAD. The active people are going to be active and contribute regardless of how long the day is and the inactive people are going to be inactive. anything more than 24 hours is a waste imo. Only reason I wanted 12 was cause it was D1 and D1 typically isnt very productive at all.

 

This

[Kivam]

 

5) There are two ways to get more time.  If a member of the mafia is killed then the town will get back the time allotted for that persons' lynch phase + 12 hours.  Alternately, should time run out the Mafia will select a player.  That player will be considered as an extra NK and town will get back 24 hours for every 50 posts that player has made, minimum of 24 hours for a player with less than 24 hours.  The mafia also has to NK a member with less posts than the person they pick for that evening.

6) Should time run out and there not be an additional player to sacrifice before reaching parity etc. Mafia wins.

 

Just going to highlight this again.  It's in mafia's interest for us to run out of time, particularly on later days.  If we run out of time at LYLO, we lose.  If we run out of time at MYLO, we lose.

 

This means we need to kill scum, obviously.

 

It also means that the more time we spend on days when we lynch mafia, the better, and the more time on days when we lynch town, the worse (because we don't get time back for lynching town).

 

And that means that D1, which is a day on which we can't reasonably expect to lynch scum, needed to be a short day.  And I'll go out on a limb and say that D2 probably should be relatively short as well, because we need to maximize our time on days when we can expect to lynch scum. I'd say that's days 3 forward - after we have 2 days of lynch trains to analyze, after 4 townies have likely died (2 lynches, 2 nks) leaving us at 8-4 (i.e. now 1/3 of the game is scum, more of a chance of lynching one even by pure luck), and after our investigator (I assume we have one) has had a chance at a peek or two to further narrow down the pool for themselves.

 

(Yes, 8-4 is a pessimistic assumption.  But it's also both realistic and one I'm happy to be wrong about, in the event)

[dicetosser1]

 

 

 

 

 

I am a complete noob. ask anyone. No skill whatsoever.  

 

 

 

 

 

Lynch all liars? 

 

so turin wont be getting lynched then i take it. :D

 

Mafia already defending one another?

 

its called Teasing ley.

[dicetosser1]

 

My reasoning is fairly simple. D1 is possibly the most important info gathering day. Why cut it short? By shortening the deadline especially to less than 24 hours you sacrifice one of towns biggest advantages wrt to lynches. Our numbers advantage. With the short deadline it is nearly certain some of the non us timezone people will not be around at deadline. And those that had been active early wouldn't be able to switch a vote later as they would be asleep. Now if this were regular hammer it would likely result in s no lynch which although not optimal is better than handing mafia s free mislynch. That is what I would see happen. By setting an odd deadline it reduces town ability to control the lynch. Basically making the effective numbers more like 7-4 instead of 12-4 using standard balance. this cedes more lynch control to mafia. Add in that if we reach majority we get time back better to have more time to get people posting and taking stances. Haste makes waste.

 

As for wasting time on day one... Just say no. Do not do a bunch of silly time wasting things like banter about a made up word when you can get your point across with the established dictionary.

 

Right now suspect of kiv for the d1 is not worth trying to find mafia. RTE for his first post which read like he is very excite. (Ribs me wrong). EP for his short vote and his post to Time. Len wanted a short deadline too so throw him in that pile as well.

 

With the short time we need to get right to.it.

 

This is a silly argument.  With players spread across the globe, there's essentially no time limit that will ensure all players are active and around at the deadline.  So here's a thought - be active before the deadline.  Crazy, I know, but it just might work.

 

As for the red, I have to ask: why are you so certain that all of the players who would be impacted by the deadline, in your hypothetical "can't be around" world, are townies?  Absent some knowledge of who is who, why wouldn't you assume that if 5 players are impacted (your numbers), they would be 3-4 townies and 1-2 scum, which is a lot more likely given there's no particular reason for scum or town to be clustered around particular time zones?  TBH, this reads like a failure to correct for TMI

 

 

ok trying to get my head around this. I feel like what what ive highlighted of kivs is basically the same as what turin was saying.   and i dont think im saying this well.

 

Kiv can you dumb that down for me??  i feel like im missing something and its bugging me.

 

got part of whats bugging me.  Isnt it natural to assume the majority who are not around are town? Town is the majority of the game after all

[Yates]

And that means that D1, which is a day on which we can't reasonably expect to lynch scum, needed to be a short day.  And I'll go out on a limb and say that D2 probably should be relatively short as well, because we need to maximize our time on days when we can expect to lynch scum.

I think you are being wonky with your math. Nights are 12 hours. Even if we set ALL days to 24 hours, we get 5 days plus 8 hours on Day 6 assuming we lynch ZERO scum. I'll tell you what, we don't deserve to win if we haven't lynched scum in a 16 player game by Day 6.

 

Also, you forget that days where we have a guilty result on a player don't need to be very long. Plus days with fewer players require less discussion as well. So, really, days can get SHORTER as we progress because we'll have more info to help us make better decisions faster.

 

Like, Day 3 would probably be a good day to reserve now as a 12 hour day. At that point our PR's would have two nights worth of investigation results.

 

So I propose D2 is 20 hours and Day 3 is 12 hours. That gives us a full 24 hours for Day 6 and beyond, not counting the time we get back plus the bonus 12 hours when we lynch scum. If we catch scum by day 3? We can "reward" ourselves by adding 4 hours to our days for each scum we catch.

[Yates]

Yeah. Let's look at this as an accounting problem.

 

We had $192 in the bank.

Each nights costs $12.

Day 1 cost us $24.

 

So on day 2 we'll have $156 left in the bank. And we know N2 is going to cost us another $12.

 

Go from there.

[Kivam]

 

 

My reasoning is fairly simple. D1 is possibly the most important info gathering day. Why cut it short? By shortening the deadline especially to less than 24 hours you sacrifice one of towns biggest advantages wrt to lynches. Our numbers advantage. With the short deadline it is nearly certain some of the non us timezone people will not be around at deadline. And those that had been active early wouldn't be able to switch a vote later as they would be asleep. Now if this were regular hammer it would likely result in s no lynch which although not optimal is better than handing mafia s free mislynch. That is what I would see happen. By setting an odd deadline it reduces town ability to control the lynch. Basically making the effective numbers more like 7-4 instead of 12-4 using standard balance. this cedes more lynch control to mafia. Add in that if we reach majority we get time back better to have more time to get people posting and taking stances. Haste makes waste.

 

As for wasting time on day one... Just say no. Do not do a bunch of silly time wasting things like banter about a made up word when you can get your point across with the established dictionary.

 

Right now suspect of kiv for the d1 is not worth trying to find mafia. RTE for his first post which read like he is very excite. (Ribs me wrong). EP for his short vote and his post to Time. Len wanted a short deadline too so throw him in that pile as well.

 

With the short time we need to get right to.it.

 

This is a silly argument.  With players spread across the globe, there's essentially no time limit that will ensure all players are active and around at the deadline.  So here's a thought - be active before the deadline.  Crazy, I know, but it just might work.

 

As for the red, I have to ask: why are you so certain that all of the players who would be impacted by the deadline, in your hypothetical "can't be around" world, are townies?  Absent some knowledge of who is who, why wouldn't you assume that if 5 players are impacted (your numbers), they would be 3-4 townies and 1-2 scum, which is a lot more likely given there's no particular reason for scum or town to be clustered around particular time zones?  TBH, this reads like a failure to correct for TMI

 

 

ok trying to get my head around this. I feel like what what ive highlighted of kivs is basically the same as what turin was saying.   and i dont think im saying this well.

 

Kiv can you dumb that down for me??  i feel like im missing something and its bugging me.

 

got part of whats bugging me.  Isnt it natural to assume the majority who are not around are town? Town is the majority of the game after all

 

 

Sure.  The majority, yes.  All?  Absolutely not.

 

With 16 players, we can assume that the distribution is 12 town, 4 scum.

 

If 5 players are inactive at deadline, it would be natural to assume the majority are town, in roughly the same proportion: 3.75/5 town, 1.25/5 scum.  Since you can't have a quarter of a player, that means a fair assumption would be 4 town/1 scum (3/2 is possible, though unlikely).  That would put the numbers at 8-3, or roughly the same concentration of town-to-scum as our default of 12-4.

 

Turin, however, argued it would be 7-4 - i.e. that all 5 would be town, dramatically shifting the town-scum ratio in scum's favor.  That's scare-mongering at best, TMI (a reason for Turin to expect that those who can't be around at noon eastern are townies) at worst.

[Kivam]

Yeah. Let's look at this as an accounting problem.

 

We had $192 in the bank.

Each nights costs $12.

Day 1 cost us $24.

 

So on day 2 we'll have $156 left in the bank. And we know N2 is going to cost us another $12.

 

Go from there.

 

Agreed.  Which is why D1 should have cost us less than $24.  I'd rather allocate time to later days, when there is more information to analyze and therefore more useful ways to spend the time.

 

In other words, we've now spent $24 to buy $12 worth of time (given what the lack of available information does to the utility of the time we've "purchased")

[Leyrann]

 

Your point about the red text is illogical due to the fact that it automatically becomes red when you type in the vote code, and anything less than 24 hours benefits mafia because the shorter amount of time town has, the more likely it will be to be picked off due to the fact that not everybody knows who town is.

 

A townie is going to die day 1. Accept it, and focus on using D1 to develop sufficient information to make that sacrifice meaningful.  Spending more time on D1 spam and silliness isn't beneficial to the town in the long run when the game has a total time clock that benefits scum

 

 

That's no reason to make day that short some people don't have the time to check in even ONCE. I, for example, can check in now, a few hours before the upcoming deadline, then only in magnitudes of 24 hours from now until Friday, and I then have a bit more time in the weekend and then I go back to as little time as this week. A day less than 24 hours is the worst you can do, because there will be people who would get lynched WITHOUT EVEN HAVING A CHANCE TO DEFEND themselves.

 

 

you seem pretty forward on Yates... any specific reason?

Yep.  As I posted above, don't like the inconsistency in his theoretical approach to this game.  Which is about as good a reason as any to choose a candidate for vote number 1.

 

 

There are far better reasons. Like your belief that D1 is useless.

 

 

My reasoning is fairly simple. D1 is possibly the most important info gathering day. Why cut it short? By shortening the deadline especially to less than 24 hours you sacrifice one of towns biggest advantages wrt to lynches. Our numbers advantage. With the short deadline it is nearly certain some of the non us timezone people will not be around at deadline. And those that had been active early wouldn't be able to switch a vote later as they would be asleep. Now if this were regular hammer it would likely result in s no lynch which although not optimal is better than handing mafia s free mislynch. That is what I would see happen. By setting an odd deadline it reduces town ability to control the lynch. Basically making the effective numbers more like 7-4 instead of 12-4 using standard balance. this cedes more lynch control to mafia. Add in that if we reach majority we get time back better to have more time to get people posting and taking stances. Haste makes waste.

 

As for wasting time on day one... Just say no. Do not do a bunch of silly time wasting things like banter about a made up word when you can get your point across with the established dictionary.

 

Right now suspect of kiv for the d1 is not worth trying to find mafia. RTE for his first post which read like he is very excite. (Ribs me wrong). EP for his short vote and his post to Time. Len wanted a short deadline too so throw him in that pile as well.

 

With the short time we need to get right to.it.

 

This is a silly argument.  With players spread across the globe, there's essentially no time limit that will ensure all players are active and around at the deadline.  So here's a thought - be active before the deadline.  Crazy, I know, but it just might work.

 

As for the red, I have to ask: why are you so certain that all of the players who would be impacted by the deadline, in your hypothetical "can't be around" world, are townies?  Absent some knowledge of who is who, why wouldn't you assume that if 5 players are impacted (your numbers), they would be 3-4 townies and 1-2 scum, which is a lot more likely given there's no particular reason for scum or town to be clustered around particular time zones?  TBH, this reads like a failure to correct for TMI

 

 

Italics: Then why are you voting for a 12 hour day. Not everyone CAN be active on a 12 hour day. I would already have voted you without this post, but this ensures my vote even more. Don't try to keep everyone from doing useful things.

 

[v]##Kivam[/v]

 

 

My reasoning is fairly simple. D1 is possibly the most important info gathering day. Why cut it short? By shortening the deadline especially to less than 24 hours you sacrifice one of towns biggest advantages wrt to lynches. Our numbers advantage. With the short deadline it is nearly certain some of the non us timezone people will not be around at deadline. And those that had been active early wouldn't be able to switch a vote later as they would be asleep. Now if this were regular hammer it would likely result in s no lynch which although not optimal is better than handing mafia s free mislynch. That is what I would see happen. By setting an odd deadline it reduces town ability to control the lynch. Basically making the effective numbers more like 7-4 instead of 12-4 using standard balance. this cedes more lynch control to mafia. Add in that if we reach majority we get time back better to have more time to get people posting and taking stances. Haste makes waste.

 

As for wasting time on day one... Just say no. Do not do a bunch of silly time wasting things like banter about a made up word when you can get your point across with the established dictionary.

 

Right now suspect of kiv for the d1 is not worth trying to find mafia. RTE for his first post which read like he is very excite. (Ribs me wrong). EP for his short vote and his post to Time. Len wanted a short deadline too so throw him in that pile as well.

 

With the short time we need to get right to.it.

So im in the pile because I wanted a short deadline? See the thing is we dont want long days, especially D1, because we have a limited pool of hours. Once we run out of those hours the mafia starts getting extra kills as I believe it, which is BAD. The active people are going to be active and contribute regardless of how long the day is and the inactive people are going to be inactive. anything more than 24 hours is a waste imo. Only reason I wanted 12 was cause it was D1 and D1 typically isnt very productive at all.

 

 

And you're on that train too?

 

Look, I understand we got limited time, but if we take 48 hours per day, we still have 4 days. We get an extra day for every mafia we lynch. If we have 4 townie lynches and 4 mafia night kills, that's 8 people left. In the standard setup that would mean 4 town 4 mafia left. Game. Over. Day 1 is the ONLY day there is an excuse to not make (close to) 48 hours or even more than that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am a complete noob. ask anyone. No skill whatsoever.  

 

 

 

 

 

Lynch all liars? 

 

so turin wont be getting lynched then i take it. :D

 

Mafia already defending one another?

 

its called Teasing ley.

 

 

No, REALLY?

 

(4 new replies added btw)

[dicetosser1]

oh  i see   thanks for that kiv.

[Thane Vakarian]

spending less than 24 hours on day one for me would mean that those players would agree to more or less blindlynch somebody without having much information to go on (like a regular D1)... I doubt that's very townie

[Leyrann]

Oh wait, I just realized that night also counts the timer down. In that case, every day could be 36 hours at least.