Cleanse the Tower - Black Tower Mafia Day 2

[Kivam]

So at this point Lenlo is at what, L-2?

 

I've unclaimed my cop peek, so that's interesting.

 

There's scum involved in the wagon regardless of his alignment.

So what you're saying is, if he's town and you're a liar, there's opportunistic scum using your false claim as a cover for lynching a third townie while not giving away TMI, and if he's scum (regardless of your truthfulness) then there are scum on the wagon who don't want to be seen as ignoring the cop?  Brilliant deduction.

[Tommyrod]

Which person who joined the wagon do you think was least sincere?

[ReleaseTheEvil]

 

So at this point Lenlo is at what, L-2?

 

I've unclaimed my cop peek, so that's interesting.

 

There's scum involved in the wagon regardless of his alignment.

So what you're saying is, if he's town and you're a liar, there's opportunistic scum using your false claim as a cover for lynching a third townie while not giving away TMI, and if he's scum (regardless of your truthfulness) then there are scum on the wagon who don't want to be seen as ignoring the cop?  Brilliant deduction.

 

 

Logic FTW

[ReleaseTheEvil]

Which person who joined the wagon do you think was least sincere?

 

I feel like you are sure there is at least one scum on this train when that is in fact not a certainty. Makes the most sense for them to be off it if Lenlo is town as not like this train has been around for so long anyways 

[Kivam]

Which person who joined the wagon do you think was least sincere?

I'd say once you claimed it's impossible to tell, because "OK, vote Len" is a perfectly sincere response, and easy enough to fake.  Nobody did the "hooray, scum is on the run now" happy dance, either

[Tommyrod]

Jeez, guys. What is wrong with all of you? Do you not understand that sometimes people lie or go down a false path of reasoning to see who bites? I don't even do it for very long.

You're making this so much more difficult than it has to be and far less fruitful than it should be.

RTE, tell me why you aren't scum in this game.

Then tell me your heartfelt feelings on Kivam.

[ReleaseTheEvil]

Jeez, guys. What is wrong with all of you? Do you not understand that sometimes people lie or go down a false path of reasoning to see who bites? I don't even do it for very long.

 

You're making this so much more difficult than it has to be and far less fruitful than it should be.

 

RTE, tell me why you aren't scum in this game.

 

Then tell me your heartfelt feelings on Kivam.

 

Why I'm not scum? Because my role pm says I'm town? Tell me why I am scum. That would make more sense to me?

 

Kivam confuses me. Don't know why he wouldn't have trusted your claim immediately and gone with that. Didn't like those interactions following that. Before that had a pretty town view on him given his role claim. So I feel a bit mixed about it. Yea I get his scepticism about your claim but I do think had you stuck by it lynching Leno was the best move for town.

 

I'm still not clear on what you did or did not claim now and I doubt I'm the only one. Cliff notes?  

[Kivam]

Jeez, guys. What is wrong with all of you? Do you not understand that sometimes people lie or go down a false path of reasoning to see who bites? I don't even do it for very long.

 

You're making this so much more difficult than it has to be and far less fruitful than it should be.

 

RTE, tell me why you aren't scum in this game.

 

Then tell me your heartfelt feelings on Kivam.

Of course.  The difficulty is that you chose a path that enabled everyone to bite in an entirely cost-free fashion.  Assuming you're town and were fake-claiming, the only players in the game with incentive not to bite would be Lenlo (assuming he's town) and the actual cop.  Townies will lynch Lenlo to vet your claim and get a guaranteed scum lynch in, and scum will join either because they believe the claim (if Lenlo happens to be scum) or because they know it's false and are happy to get two lynches for the price of one (Lenlo today, you tomorrow).  

 

So the only one who would have a likely immediate "that's not a good play" reaction would be the real cop.  Which is why a false cop claim is incredibly anti-town, since (at best) it helps scum identify the real one.

[Kivam]

 

Jeez, guys. What is wrong with all of you? Do you not understand that sometimes people lie or go down a false path of reasoning to see who bites? I don't even do it for very long.

 

You're making this so much more difficult than it has to be and far less fruitful than it should be.

 

RTE, tell me why you aren't scum in this game.

 

Then tell me your heartfelt feelings on Kivam.

 

Why I'm not scum? Because my role pm says I'm town? Tell me why I am scum. That would make more sense to me?

 

Kivam confuses me. Don't know why he wouldn't have trusted your claim immediately and gone with that. Didn't like those interactions following that. Before that had a pretty town view on him given his role claim. So I feel a bit mixed about it. Yea I get his scepticism about your claim but I do think had you stuck by it lynching Leno was the best move for town.

 

I'm still not clear on what you did or did not claim now and I doubt I'm the only one. Cliff notes?

 

Go back and look.  I immediately voted Len.  Only started doubting it when Tommy pulled off Len as the lynch candidate, and then "unclaimed" it.  Still have no clue, happy to lynch Tina (as discussed) or Len (to vet, with me shooting Tommy immediately if Len is town) today

[ReleaseTheEvil]

 

 

Jeez, guys. What is wrong with all of you? Do you not understand that sometimes people lie or go down a false path of reasoning to see who bites? I don't even do it for very long.

 

You're making this so much more difficult than it has to be and far less fruitful than it should be.

 

RTE, tell me why you aren't scum in this game.

 

Then tell me your heartfelt feelings on Kivam.

 

Why I'm not scum? Because my role pm says I'm town? Tell me why I am scum. That would make more sense to me?

 

Kivam confuses me. Don't know why he wouldn't have trusted your claim immediately and gone with that. Didn't like those interactions following that. Before that had a pretty town view on him given his role claim. So I feel a bit mixed about it. Yea I get his scepticism about your claim but I do think had you stuck by it lynching Leno was the best move for town.

 

I'm still not clear on what you did or did not claim now and I doubt I'm the only one. Cliff notes?

 

Go back and look.  I immediately voted Len.  Only started doubting it when Tommy pulled off Len as the lynch candidate, and then "unclaimed" it.  Still have no clue, happy to lynch Tina (as discussed) or Len (to vet, with me shooting Tommy immediately if Len is town) today

 

 

Ah, I see.

 

Tommy, at this point this ambiguity only helps scum. Who do you actually know about? If you don't want to say, fine, but at least say what is a certainty and what isn't. I'm willing to vote whomever you're sure about because that will clear the most air. 

[Tommyrod]

 

Jeez, guys. What is wrong with all of you? Do you not understand that sometimes people lie or go down a false path of reasoning to see who bites? I don't even do it for very long.

 

You're making this so much more difficult than it has to be and far less fruitful than it should be.

 

RTE, tell me why you aren't scum in this game.

 

Then tell me your heartfelt feelings on Kivam.

Of course.  The difficulty is that you chose a path that enabled everyone to bite in an entirely cost-free fashion.  Assuming you're town and were fake-claiming, the only players in the game with incentive not to bite would be Lenlo (assuming he's town) and the actual cop.  Townies will lynch Lenlo to vet your claim and get a guaranteed scum lynch in, and scum will join either because they believe the claim (if Lenlo happens to be scum) or because they know it's false and are happy to get two lynches for the price of one (Lenlo today, you tomorrow).  

 

So the only one who would have a likely immediate "that's not a good play" reaction would be the real cop.  Which is why a false cop claim is incredibly anti-town, since (at best) it helps scum identify the real one.

 

 

We talked about this when you played in my game. I'm a tone reader first, especially when I haven't read everything. People can join, but not invisibly. Someone will seem weird (unless it was all genuine -- all townies). I was curious if you guys had opinions on that. But you don't I guess. So now I'm sad.

[Tommyrod]

Locke
Yates

^ I've got these two as pretty firmly town.

I'd be WTL almost anyone else, but let me read some more and see what sticks out.

[ReleaseTheEvil]

Locke

Yates

 

^ I've got these two as pretty firmly town.

 

I'd be WTL almost anyone else, but let me read some more and see what sticks out.

 

But these have nothing to do with your NAs? As in are not confirmed by your NA?

[Tommyrod]

No, my NAs are ambiguous because I can't figure out what to do with the information. I'll drop breadcrumbs in case I die.

[ReleaseTheEvil]

So all we have right now is that we should trust your reads, rather than results, and your claim that you have an investigative role and are a town PR. And that you do have results that you aren't sharing. And that you think two people are town consist of your reads right now.

 

A lot less than I thought...

[Tommyrod]

Pretty good for a guy who has no idea what's going on ITT I'd say

You can praise me now if you want

[Locke]

 

Tommy, excusing all the posturing and prodding for a moment, what do you actually think about Kivam's alignment?

Part of why I'm giving him a hard time is because I don't have a solid beat on him. I do think he's used a lot of scummy rhetoric in this game. I don't know if that's his town behavior but I know it's his scum behavior.

 

I think if he's not killed by D5 he is likely scum. His claim seemed premature.

 

How about you?

 

After Day 1, I had no read on him. Very standard towny play which is to be expected from an experienced player. When he opened Day 2 with his no lynch proposition, my senses tingled a bit. I've never played with Kivam before, but I'm aware of his reputation, and it was a play that I could see coming out of a devious mafia player. But that's nothing concrete, just a suspicion. I didn't get any more reads on him Day 2.  I originally thought his reactions to you earlier today revealed him slipping up a bit, but after re-reading it now, I'd say that was just because he understood faster than me what you were doing. I thought he was trying to manipulate his way out of a bind, but that was based around my believing your claim to be legit. If Kivam wasn't so easily fooled, his responses make much more sense. 

 

So I'm more or less back where I started. The way I see it, the key element is his roleclaim:

Possibility 1) He's telling the truth and has a vig role that killed WoT night 1. For some reason, the mafia's kill failed. Night 2, he didn't shoot, and the mafia took down Ithi.

Or 2) He's with the mafia. Night 1 he kills WoT to make his vig claim more believable and used that to propose no lynch, a venture that would highly benefit the mafia. 

I'm considering suggesting that, under threat of being lynched, Kivam must agree to shoot the majority's consensus. I would like to test his claim somehow, but there's probably too many possible variables at play that could disrupt how it turns out.  At the very least, I'm going to insist he say who he targeted and why at the beginning of each day.  

 

So Kivam I'm keeping an eye on for the moment.  

Lynch candidates for today?

Good question, I'm asking myself just that

[Kivam]

I'm willing to slave my kill to a majority vote until we have an actual cop reveal; once that happens, it's a wifom battle for me and scum.

[Clovdyx]

Vote count:

 

Lenlo - 3 - Locke, Yates, ReleaseTheEvil

ReleaseTheEvil - 1 - Tommyrod

TinaHel - 1 - Kivam

Tommyrod - 1 - Leyrann

Dicetosser - 1 - TinaHel

 

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.  Day phase ends at 12:15 Eastern time on 12/13.  There are approximately 42 hours remaining.

 

If any votes are wrong, let me know.  I haven't been able to really access the site for a day and a half, so I just covered 20 pages in five minutes.

[Lenlo]

Oh boy, do I love the smell of Tommy bull crap in the afternoon. Its a smell ive become familiar with at this point. 

 

So once again Tommy pulls some stupid plan he thinks is genius out as a way to try and get someone he thinks is scum lynched without ever actually legit casing them. Funny thing is this is actually a town Tommy thing. Only town Tommy can think this is a good idea, cause I doubt scum tom would rely on something so stupid.

 

 

I wanna lynch RTE the most.

I think Kivam has a non town agenda. Too much rhetoric.

Lenlo has some of the scummiest posts ITT, especially the "of COURSE there's mafia in this game you bozo!" type posts.

Really? Explain why. Please, for me lover.

[Tommyrod]

Because it's something a wolf would say

One of those "duh" things that is more duh to scum than it is to US COPS

[Lenlo]

Because it's something a wolf would say

 

One of those "duh" things that is more duh to scum than it is to US COPS

Question: Are you NY cops, Colorado cops or Missouri cops? Your answer is very important to me.

[Turin Turambar]

Tommy, kivam, Yates. You have all claimed roles. Please claim your characters as well.

[Yates]

Tommy, kivam, Yates. You have all claimed roles. Please claim your characters as well.

Fager Neald, if you must know.

[Turin Turambar]

Thanks Yates. Since you are here what game was it that des was babysitter? I thought in post game he said he had the option to kill his 'baby' or not. In any case it is possible Darthe made that an option. He does have a penchant for altering roles. Otherwise outside of mafia RB I don't see how no one else died.

 

I'm on phone so can't ISO. Anyone want to check time for doc hints? That would be the only way outside of pure luck I would see mafia blocking and killing her.