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Mashiara Sedai

Words of Radiance Discussion - Spoilers

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Part of the reason I believe it took so long for Jasnah's reveal is that (As I believe Brandon has stated before) if you travel to another world you need to learn how to use THEIR magic system to power your powers... Thus she'd need to learn how to use ingested metals to power her voidbending and access the plane that allows travel between worlds... figuring that out probably took a lot of time (or talking to someone who knew and, even then, practice to get it right).

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Wasn't in the books, just something I think he has stated when asked if X magic system could be used on world Y... I'll try to find the quote on his forums.

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Wasn't in the books, just something I think he has stated when asked if X magic system could be used on world Y... I'll try to find the quote on his forums.

Yea. That's a mistake. Put your stuff into books, not into interviews. Seriously.

 

BTw how do we know she wnt to other world?

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It's not 100% confirmed but the fact that she had that bullet belt thing (forget the name) on many people on brandons forum (17th shard) are under the assumption she was in the mid-western era of Mistborn since they use guns and it is going on about the same time as the story in the Stormlight Archive is.

Edited by Nikon

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Wasn't in the books, just something I think he has stated when asked if X magic system could be used on world Y... I'll try to find the quote on his forums.

Yea. That's a mistake. Put your stuff into books, not into interviews. Seriously.

 

BTw how do we know she wnt to other world?

 

 

Let's not be too judgmental on this point too soon. We're obviously still supposed to find Jasnah's disappearance a mystery. We'll see how Brandon explains it. At this point, I don't think you're expected to know this just yet. It's not a "you have to read the other books to get it" fact just yet. I mean, it might help you pick up on things sooner, but allow him the next book to actually clarify what happened with her.

 

That magic system point might not really be relevant to the whole plot anyway. That's just dork-talk (and I don't mean that as an insult). Or maybe it will be, give Szeth's sword. We'll have to see.

 

Not sure if it's confirmed she actually worldhopped, though. She obviously went into the spren-world at the least.

Edited by Agitel

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Part of the reason I believe it took so long for Jasnah's reveal is that (As I believe Brandon has stated before) if you travel to another world you need to learn how to use THEIR magic system to power your powers... Thus she'd need to learn how to use ingested metals to power her voidbending and access the plane that allows travel between worlds... figuring that out probably took a lot of time (or talking to someone who knew and, even then, practice to get it right).

Except that's not a reason at all. It might be the reason it took her so long to get back, but you could as easily have had a scene of her in Shadesmar, or possibly even on Scadrial (the Mistborn world) if she went there. You don't have to have a whole story over there, no extensive plot thread, you just have to reveal to the reader early on that she isn't dead to avoid them feeling cheated.

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I had no problem with the Jasnah return.  I thought it obvious there was more to her story and guessed she wasn't dead when Shallan discovered she was missing before soulcasting the ship into water.  I did find Szeths return a little much.  That seems like much more of a stretch to me as it was confirmed he was dead.  Other than Shallan seeing Jasnah stabbed in the chest there was no confirmation and the fact that a few moments later her body was gone should lead the reader to assume something is up.  I think explanations are forthcoming and we just need to be patient. 

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Just reread WoK and finished WoR for the first time last night.  A few thoughts:

I had no issues with Jasnah's return.  I was never fooled, however.  The author had already introduced on several occasions that potential Radiants have uncanny survival abilities, and had also pointed out conclusively that Jasnah was a Radiant.  Then there was the rather jarring way her "death" was written, and the fact that we never see her die; we only see Shallan's perceptions.  More, all that Shallan herself sees is Jasnah getting stabbed, and we also find out that both Jasnah and Shallan are capable of creating very realistic illusions.  In either case, it seemed obvious to me that her "death" needed to be taken with a substantial amount of skepticism, and her "resurrection" is thus well-established and unsurprising.  Honestly, I hesitate to call it a resurrection, because, unlike RJ balefiring a character, and the reader watching him die (and being told he's got no special powers to resurrect), we never see her die, and we ARE told she's a Radiant, who have proven on repeated occasions to be able to heal anything short of a spinal break with Stormlight.  If you didn't see that one coming, I tend to think as much can be blamed on the reader as on the author.

 

More, while I agree that IF Sanderson wanted the reader to know she was alive earlier, he could have shown us a scene on Shadesmar, etc, (probably right after Shallan saw her "die"), I don't think it is necessary or a flaw in the tale.  But then, by this point he's already thoroughly established his story mechanic, which involves a lot of jumping back and forth in the timeline.  In the last book, we saw that with Kaladin.  In this one, with Shallan.  I get the impression that a lot of you are going into this book wanting everything revealed to you in a linear fashion, but that's not how this entire series operates.  The plot mechanic is very much one of peeling back the onion.  Nothing is given for free.  I also think that the comments about jarring plot reveals are missing something important.  Everything that advances the plot, as well as our understanding of the characters, the world, and the magic system, is doled out, and in a story told in this fashion, if we keep it all to "smoothly paced revelations," the story suffers.  Life doesn't progress smoothly at a uniform pace.  Why should we expect the book to?  A lot of these so-called jarring revelations happen in places that need to have the revelation happen in that way to set the emotional theme of that segment, and convey the feelings of the characters in question.  Ditto a lot of the more terse language.  I found a lot of examples in which the language, by design or not, tied in very well with the character of what was happening in the book.

 

Since we're already talking about Jasnah's "death," you'll notice that his prose is very terse and abrupt.  There's nothing by way of warning, and the whole scene feels a little rushed and shocking:  exactly as Shallan herself feels about what's happening to her.  You might consider it unpolished, and certainly Sanderson doesn't have the literary turn of phrase of some other authors, but it's all too easy to miss the effect that the variations in his language and presentation have with respect to the emotional content of the characters.  There can be a lot more nuance to what some might take as poor phrasing or sloppy revelations than might be immediately obvious.  Now, I'm not saying that's the case everywhere.  Nobody is perfect, after all.  But that's still a very common device used by Sanderson.  For instance, take page 377, in which Kaladin is falling from the window with Szeth.  More "sloppy" prose.  Most of the sentences on this page are very short, even fragmentary.

 

"Kaladin fell with the rain."  "He has spheres."  "He hit hard.  No preparation, no getting his feet beneath him."

 

Now consider how you might feel falling from a cliff to your death.  Would YOU be thinking in lengthy, complete sentences?  Or would you have your mind filled with terse revelations about things, fragmentary thoughts, etc?

 

Once Kaladin lands and his thoughts clear, we're back to normal prose:  "It cleared a moment later, and he found himself lying on the rocks at the base of the rise that led to the king's palace, a gentle rain sprinkling him."  Etc.

 

After the shock of falling, the prose, like Kaladin's thoughts, returns to normal, during their conversation, and then switches to short sentences and fragmentary prose again while Kaladin is panicking about his hand, before healing it.  As a side note, you'll also notice, interestingly enough, that the more 'refined' characters (lighteyes, mainly), are a lot less prone to think and speak in short sentences or fragments.  Even Elkohar, when shaken, still uses complete sentences most of the time.  Sanderson uses variations in language to set the scene, establish mood, develop character and culture, etc.  Yes, there's a lot of variation.  Yes, the pacing can change quite a bit.  You'll also notice the pace towards the end as we get closer to the countdown ending, is much faster than at the beginning--just as you'd expect from a person running out of time.  I obviously can't say whether these traits are by design or just by unconscious talent.  But I don't think they're the mark of an unpolished or unskilled author either.

 

A lot of these things many of you take to be mistakes, I see larger purpose in, that fits in well with the overall context.  That's why I feel a story needs to be taken as a whole, and the broad product considered, rather than focusing in on minor details and potentially missing their context.

 

Szeth, on the other hand, I'm a little more ambivalent about.  I don't feel I've got enough information to know whether to be satisfied or dissatisfied with his resurrection (let alone with the apparent return of the other Heralds).  The way the story is revealed, a bit at a time, I figure I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  This project is certainly challenging, with a LOT of disparate details to keep in mind and make contiguous from one book to the next.

 

There was a lot to like in this book.  I really appreciated the chance to see the culture of the Parshendi/Voidbringers, and to delve more deeply into the nature of the spren.  I loved the characterization, particularly with Shallan trying to discover herself, and the shift in Szeth's character from fatalistic to totally manic and crazed as he discovers that he may not, in fact, be Truthless.  And I was very interested to learn more about the Shards.  Part of what keeps me interested in this series is the fact that there's always new questions to consider.  I, for one, really like a book series that raises plenty of questions, provided it resolves most of them by the end (as the movie Prometheus did NOT do).  Others may find it annoying, but I tend to think that's just a matter of preference.  It's a question of style, not of skill, in my mind, and this style of writing is a lot harder to do well than the usual linear tale that we get from the average author.  Remember, this is an epic, not a trilogy or stand-alone, and should not be treated as such.  Only time will tell whether Sanderson can keep it going.

 

I'm a little ambivalent about some of the interludes.  Those feel a little rushed and the characters lack emotional content thus far.  We learn a little from them, but I'm honestly not sure why they need to be in the book at all, particularly the ones who get killed randomly, or just don't appear again later (like the fisherpeople in the previous book).  There may be method to the madness, but again, I'm having to adopt a "let's wait and see" attitude about them, since I do feel that some of those just disrupt the flow.  I liked the Eshonai interludes, and didn't mind Vahel and Talanel, but so far I'm having a tough time seeing how Lift, Rysn, and Vstim are going to come into play.

Edited by crimsonfalcon07

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Brandon releases deleted interlude from Words of Radiance: http://brandonsanderson.com/deleted-interlude-from-words-of-radiance/
 

I had no problem with the Jasnah return.  I thought it obvious there was more to her story and guessed she wasn't dead when Shallan discovered she was missing before soulcasting the ship into water.  I did find Szeths return a little much.  That seems like much more of a stretch to me as it was confirmed he was dead.  Other than Shallan seeing Jasnah stabbed in the chest there was no confirmation and the fact that a few moments later her body was gone should lead the reader to assume something is up.  I think explanations are forthcoming and we just need to be patient.

How much more confirmation do you need than a sword to the chest? It's the sort of thing that can easily kill someone, the use of Stormlight would be noticeable, and the only Surge of Jasnah's that had been confirmed was Soulcasting. But the problem isn't just in her survival then and there, it's in what happens later - she's kept out of the picture, for seemingly no other reason than to persuade the reader that she's dead. Then we get the revelation that she's alive right at the end of the book, after a climax already filled with plot twists and action.
 

Just reread WoK and finished WoR for the first time last night.  A few thoughts:

I had no issues with Jasnah's return.  I was never fooled, however.  The author had already introduced on several occasions that potential Radiants have uncanny survival abilities, and had also pointed out conclusively that Jasnah was a Radiant.  Then there was the rather jarring way her "death" was written, and the fact that we never see her die; we only see Shallan's perceptions.

By that token, we never see Sadeas or Szeth die, we only see Adolin and Kaladin's perceptions. Just because we don't see her die from her own POV doesn't mean we don't see her die.

More, all that Shallan herself sees is Jasnah getting stabbed, and we also find out that both Jasnah and Shallan are capable of creating very realistic illusions.

The Surge they share is Transformation (Soulcasting). Lightweaving, the Surge Shallan uses to create illusions, is the one Jasnah doesn't have (she has Transportation instead).
 

More, while I agree that IF Sanderson wanted the reader to know she was alive earlier, he could have shown us a scene on Shadesmar, etc, (probably right after Shallan saw her "die"), I don't think it is necessary or a flaw in the tale.  But then, by this point he's already thoroughly established his story mechanic, which involves a lot of jumping back and forth in the timeline.  In the last book, we saw that with Kaladin.  In this one, with Shallan.  I get the impression that a lot of you are going into this book wanting everything revealed to you in a linear fashion, but that's not how this entire series operates.

No-one in this thread has criticised Brandon's use of the flashback mechanic in this book. The problem is that mystery isn't always good, and it can be frustrating for the reader when information is held back for no good reason. The reader doesn't know about Shallan's mother till the end because Shallan herself is avoiding that point, blotting it out, and it's not like we have another POV character who knows. In the case of Jasnah, Shallan thinking her dead is understandable, but we have a POV character who knows she's alive - Jasnah herself. Thus, we must dance around the issue, we must not be told something purely to keep the surprise, rather than because it's natural that we wouldn't know.
 

I'm a little ambivalent about some of the interludes.  Those feel a little rushed and the characters lack emotional content thus far.  We learn a little from them, but I'm honestly not sure why they need to be in the book at all, particularly the ones who get killed randomly, or just don't appear again later (like the fisherpeople in the previous book).  There may be method to the madness, but again, I'm having to adopt a "let's wait and see" attitude about them, since I do feel that some of those just disrupt the flow.  I liked the Eshonai interludes, and didn't mind Vahel and Talanel, but so far I'm having a tough time seeing how Lift, Rysn, and Vstim are going to come into play.

Lift is apparently going to be more prominent in the latter five books. Also, she's another instance of Nalan's attempts to kill of Surgebinders (after Ym). He later shows up to resurrect Szeth. Mostly, they seem to be sources of background detail or seeds for things in the future (Eshonai's set to be the flashback character in book 4, Rysn is presumably being set p for something, most of what we know about the Nightwatcher comes from either Word of God or the Interlude in the first book which featured Shallash destroying art, and the three worldhoppers hunting for Hoid might well come into play again at some point) - the POV characters themselves aren't always the important parts.

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How much more confirmation do you need than a sword to the chest? It's the sort of thing that can easily kill someone, the use of Stormlight would be noticeable, and the only Surge of Jasnah's that had been confirmed was Soulcasting. But the problem isn't just in her survival then and there, it's in what happens later - she's kept out of the picture, for seemingly no other reason than to persuade the reader that she's dead. Then we get the revelation that she's alive right at the end of the book, after a climax already filled with plot twists and action.

 

Given the described circumstances, it didn't, and still doesn't, strike me as odd that she survived.  It was a "long, thin, knife," not a sword, although we are told that she's bleeding prior to being "made sure of."  There are a number of different explanations for her survival beyond just the use of Stormlight, of course.  She might have been in Shadesmar, or it's even possible she could have figured out how to Soulcast something into a simulacrum of her body, or even Soulcast her body itself.  I suspect the use of Stormlight is the most likely, as ALL of our Radiants have been able to use it to survive things they shouldn't be able to (even having a limb cut by an Honorblade).

 

More, even in real life and without the benefit of Stormlight powers, people and animals have survived stabbing wounds in surprising fashion.  Here's a few examples:  http://www.oddee.com/item_98009.aspx

 

As for it being noticeable, consider how long it took the rest of the bridge crew to notice Kaladin using Stormlight, or even Kaladin himself.  More, we only see a glow when they use a whole lot, and even just pulling a trickle while there are witnesses, particularly during such a chaotic setting, might be sufficient to keep Jasnah alive without anyone noticing.  Shallan only gets a very brief view, and since she is understandably distressed, and the lighting isn't that good anyways, it hardly is difficult to presume that she might have missed the use of Stormlight, especially given that Radiants can use Stormlight without glowing, unless they pull in too much beyond what they are using it for.

 

By that token, we never see Sadeas or Szeth die, we only see Adolin and Kaladin's perceptions. Just because we don't see her die from her own POV doesn't mean we don't see her die.

More, all that Shallan herself sees is Jasnah getting stabbed, and we also find out that both Jasnah and Shallan are capable of creating very realistic illusions.

The Surge they share is Transformation (Soulcasting). Lightweaving, the Surge Shallan uses to create illusions, is the one Jasnah doesn't have (she has Transportation instead).

 

Fair points.  But we DO see other characters die from their own perspectives (Ym, for instance).  And Szeth didn't die either.  As for Sadeas, he's not had any development as being a Radiant, so that's a fundamentally different situation.  It's still certainly possible he could be saved by a Herald, but in both cases, what's more telling for me is that the Shardblades appear than any injuries they suffer.  And even then, one of those two doesn't actually die.  So it shouldn't be THAT surprising that Jasnah survived.

 

No-one in this thread has criticised Brandon's use of the flashback mechanic in this book. The problem is that mystery isn't always good, and it can be frustrating for the reader when information is held back for no good reason. The reader doesn't know about Shallan's mother till the end because Shallan herself is avoiding that point, blotting it out, and it's not like we have another POV character who knows. In the case of Jasnah, Shallan thinking her dead is understandable, but we have a POV character who knows she's alive - Jasnah herself. Thus, we must dance around the issue, we must not be told something purely to keep the surprise, rather than because it's natural that we wouldn't know.

To be fair, we don't actually know that the information is held back "for no good reason."  Clearly, it's being done at least partially to perpetuate the assumption that Jasnah is dead (and really, I don't see why the READER needs to know that she's alive).  In FACT, because the story is heavily driven by Shallan's perception that Jasnah IS, in fact, dead, it wouldn't make sense for us to know something she doesn't, since that would indubitably lead us to question her perspective, and would detract from our understanding of her motivations.  Jasnah herself does nothing to drive the tale to the point of her survival except insofar as we are intended to think she's dead, and thus seeing her perspective is unnecessary.  So, even if that were the only reason we don't see her, it would still be a reasonably good one, in my estimation.

 

But we don't actually know what Sanderson plans.  For instance, we could have known for much longer that Shallan had a Blade, or about her mother, etc.  We could have learned about Kaladin's back story early as well.  And if we're not concerned about having to wait for her story or his, why should we be concerned about waiting for Jasnah's, which would only distract us from the rest of the story, and which may contain important revelations that guide other aspects of the story at appropriate times, eh?  The ASSUMPTION that the only reason we have to wait to find out about her survival is to perpetuate the perspective that she's dead is just that, an assumption.  But it's not a fair one.  We've already seen countless examples of how Sanderson withholds parts of a character's story because it will be more important a revelation later.  If we're not going to complain about the multitude of those examples, it's hardly reasonable to complain about it in this instance, when we don't actually know if there is more to her survival than just a simple plot gimmick.  And I find it hard to believe that Jasnah's survival, and the mechanism whereby she survives, would be that unimportant.  There's surely going to be more to the story, which means that there likely IS more reason.  As you say, the POV characters aren't always the important parts.  It seems likely to me that we'll see more from Jasnah, and the revelation of her survival will drive the plot in different ways, rather than distracting from it, as would have happened with an earlier reveal in this book.

And that's hardly the only flaw here.  Jasnah, by and large is NOT actually a POV character. Story is told from her perspective in only one part of the series:  the prologue of WoR.  The rest of her story is told mainly from Shallan's perspective, not from Jasnah's.  And even in that prologue, unlike even some of the more currently minor characters, she's nowhere listed at the section start page as a POV character, as is done for all other POV characters.

 

I think you're right that the other more minor characters are seeds for future plot, and I'm certainly not really concerned about them.  Again, I do believe these books need to be taken in context of the package as a whole, and that means a fair and balanced perspective should take into account possible reasons for what we perceive as flaws, especially in context of how Sanderson has handled other situations, be it Jasnah's survival or any others.

For that matter, Jasnah's survival is similar to Nalan's, just writ smaller.  Why are other Heralds besides Talanel still alive?  Why wait so long to hear about them?  I really don't see why it's worth getting annoyed by Jasnah with all of these other characters to also be annoyed about.  And at least it seems to play a role in the development of the story.  I'm certainly happier about Sanderson's use of resurrection of these characters than I was with Jordan repeatedly resurrecting Forsaken who had been killed.  I'm still unclear on what that added to the story, aside from a sense of futility.  But that's just me.

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How much more confirmation do you need than a sword to the chest? It's the sort of thing that can easily kill someone, the use of Stormlight would be noticeable, and the only Surge of Jasnah's that had been confirmed was Soulcasting. But the problem isn't just in her survival then and there, it's in what happens later - she's kept out of the picture, for seemingly no other reason than to persuade the reader that she's dead. Then we get the revelation that she's alive right at the end of the book, after a climax already filled with plot twists and action.

 

Given the described circumstances, it didn't, and still doesn't, strike me as odd that she survived.  It was a "long, thin, knife," not a sword, although we are told that she's bleeding prior to being "made sure of."  There are a number of different explanations for her survival beyond just the use of Stormlight, of course.  She might have been in Shadesmar, or it's even possible she could have figured out how to Soulcast something into a simulacrum of her body, or even Soulcast her body itself.  I suspect the use of Stormlight is the most likely, as ALL of our Radiants have been able to use it to survive things they shouldn't be able to (even having a limb cut by an Honorblade).

 

More, even in real life and without the benefit of Stormlight powers, people and animals have survived stabbing wounds in surprising fashion.  Here's a few examples:  http://www.oddee.com/item_98009.aspx

 

As for it being noticeable, consider how long it took the rest of the bridge crew to notice Kaladin using Stormlight, or even Kaladin himself.  More, we only see a glow when they use a whole lot, and even just pulling a trickle while there are witnesses, particularly during such a chaotic setting, might be sufficient to keep Jasnah alive without anyone noticing.  Shallan only gets a very brief view, and since she is understandably distressed, and the lighting isn't that good anyways, it hardly is difficult to presume that she might have missed the use of Stormlight, especially given that Radiants can use Stormlight without glowing, unless they pull in too much beyond what they are using it for.

 

Just because it was possible for her to have survived, doesn't mean survival should be presumed. Clearly, the presentation is such that "Jasnah is dead" is the most obvious reading, with only the missing body giving us reason to doubt this, and that only because it's an out of place detail. Shallan herself notes the mundane explanation. My point was not that Jasnah's survival was impossible under the circumstances, only that the reader doesn't really need more confirmation to say that she's dead.

 

By that token, we never see Sadeas or Szeth die, we only see Adolin and Kaladin's perceptions. Just because we don't see her die from her own POV doesn't mean we don't see her die.

More, all that Shallan herself sees is Jasnah getting stabbed, and we also find out that both Jasnah and Shallan are capable of creating very realistic illusions.

The Surge they share is Transformation (Soulcasting). Lightweaving, the Surge Shallan uses to create illusions, is the one Jasnah doesn't have (she has Transportation instead).

 

 

Fair points.  But we DO see other characters die from their own perspectives (Ym, for instance).  And Szeth didn't die either.  As for Sadeas, he's not had any development as being a Radiant, so that's a fundamentally different situation.  It's still certainly possible he could be saved by a Herald, but in both cases, what's more telling for me is that the Shardblades appear than any injuries they suffer.  And even then, one of those two doesn't actually die.  So it shouldn't be THAT surprising that Jasnah survived.

 

Actually, Szeth did die. "You did die" were Nalan's exact words. He was only mostly dead - mostly dead is still partly alive.

 

No-one in this thread has criticised Brandon's use of the flashback mechanic in this book. The problem is that mystery isn't always good, and it can be frustrating for the reader when information is held back for no good reason. The reader doesn't know about Shallan's mother till the end because Shallan herself is avoiding that point, blotting it out, and it's not like we have another POV character who knows. In the case of Jasnah, Shallan thinking her dead is understandable, but we have a POV character who knows she's alive - Jasnah herself. Thus, we must dance around the issue, we must not be told something purely to keep the surprise, rather than because it's natural that we wouldn't know.

To be fair, we don't actually know that the information is held back "for no good reason."  Clearly, it's being done at least partially to perpetuate the assumption that Jasnah is dead (and really, I don't see why the READER needs to know that she's alive).  In FACT, because the story is heavily driven by Shallan's perception that Jasnah IS, in fact, dead, it wouldn't make sense for us to know something she doesn't, since that would indubitably lead us to question her perspective, and would detract from our understanding of her motivations.  Jasnah herself does nothing to drive the tale to the point of her survival except insofar as we are intended to think she's dead, and thus seeing her perspective is unnecessary.  So, even if that were the only reason we don't see her, it would still be a reasonably good one, in my estimation.

 

We would expect Shallan to act according to her perceptions that Jasnah is dead, regardless of whether we know differently. It would not detract from our understanding of her motivations - unless you think that on reread you won't be able to make sense of how Shallan acts? Given the number of spoilers I read, I was aware of Jasnah's survival before I even read her death scene. And we can say with some certainty that the information is held back for no good reason, as we are given the information by the end of the book anyway. We can therefore say with some certainty that her survival could be known about as of the end of part one and would not have changed the events of the book nor how we saw them. What it would have changed is the conclusion, and here is the problem: Jasnah's survival could be made known to the reader at any point, but it's held back to the end. The end is full of plot twists and revelations. But what happens when a climax becomes overfull? Sanderson is aware of this problem, he talks about it in the annotations to Elantris. He had to scale back the number of plot twists in the finale to that book from what he had in earlier drafts because it was too much, and made things feel rushed. Now, I'll grant you that where the line is drawn on "too much" is a matter of individual taste, but ending on Jasnah's survival (shock twist!) felt a bit too much for me, any power that it might have had diminished by the other events going on around it - Dalinar binding the Stormfather, Kaladin swearing the Third Ideal and being reunited with Syl, Szeth's death and resurrection, the Everstorm, and so on. (Bear in mind that all of those were things I knew about in advance, yet they didn't lose their power.) Jasnah's return leaves things in a good position to go forward, but the actual revelation of her being alive lacked any force. Also, the fact of her being alive despite having appeared dead fits alongside the other resurrections to give the impression that death is cheap - at least, for main characters.

 

But we don't actually know what Sanderson plans.  For instance, we could have known for much longer that Shallan had a Blade, or about her mother, etc.  We could have learned about Kaladin's back story early as well.  And if we're not concerned about having to wait for her story or his, why should we be concerned about waiting for Jasnah's, which would only distract us from the rest of the story, and which may contain important revelations that guide other aspects of the story at appropriate times, eh?

Ah, but it's not Jasnah's back story, nor her discoveries that are being cited as problems due to our lack of knowledge. It's just her survival - we could have had confirmation that she was alive at any point and it wouldn't have changed the plot. There is, of course, the question of how she survived - but that mechanism could be kept from Jasnah - and thus the reader - or could be known already to Jasnah (if it involves Stormlight or Surgebinding). And even if there is some revelation down the line, that doesn't change the nature of the problem, as we're still left with a problematic climax to WoR in which Jasnah's survival ends up feeling tacked on after all we've just been through.

 

And that's hardly the only flaw here.  Jasnah, by and large is NOT actually a POV character. Story is told from her perspective in only one part of the series:  the prologue of WoR.  The rest of her story is told mainly from Shallan's perspective, not from Jasnah's.  And even in that prologue, unlike even some of the more currently minor characters, she's nowhere listed at the section start page as a POV character, as is done for all other POV characters.

The step is still taken to make her a POV character - same with Moash and Lopen. Also, the prologue is before section 1, so she wouldn't be listed there anyway.

 

For that matter, Jasnah's survival is similar to Nalan's, just writ smaller.  Why are other Heralds besides Talanel still alive?  Why wait so long to hear about them?  I really don't see why it's worth getting annoyed by Jasnah with all of these other characters to also be annoyed about.  And at least it seems to play a role in the development of the story.  I'm certainly happier about Sanderson's use of resurrection of these characters than I was with Jordan repeatedly resurrecting Forsaken who had been killed.  I'm still unclear on what that added to the story, aside from a sense of futility.  But that's just me.

Well, being annoyed at one character doesn't preclude being annoyed at another. As for the Heralds, they appear to be immortal, but aren't major players. And I prefer RJ's use of resurrection - it requires Shai'tan's intervention, there are limits, and the possibility of it is mentioned in the first book. It's also used very sparingly (four times in fourteen books). Sanderson uses it three times in this book alone, via different methods each time (Surgebinding, fabrial and unknown-but-appears-to-be-a-case-of-alive-all-along). Note that as it's a Surgebinding power, two orders of Radiants should be able to do it (Edgedancers and Truthwatchers - and we have a character from each order who is going to be a major character later on, in Lift and Renarin). I suppose you could even count Syl as another case, so Brandon has already matched RJ's total in just one book. I'm not sure what that adds to the series, besides a headache if he wants to kill anyone.

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For that matter, Jasnah's survival is similar to Nalan's, just writ smaller.  Why are other Heralds besides Talanel still alive?  Why wait so long to hear about them?  I really don't see why it's worth getting annoyed by Jasnah with all of these other characters to also be annoyed about.  And at least it seems to play a role in the development of the story.  I'm certainly happier about Sanderson's use of resurrection of these characters than I was with Jordan repeatedly resurrecting Forsaken who had been killed.  I'm still unclear on what that added to the story, aside from a sense of futility.  But that's just me.

Well, being annoyed at one character doesn't preclude being annoyed at another. As for the Heralds, they appear to be immortal, but aren't major players. And I prefer RJ's use of resurrection - it requires Shai'tan's intervention, there are limits, and the possibility of it is mentioned in the first book. It's also used very sparingly (four times in fourteen books). Sanderson uses it three times in this book alone, via different methods each time (Surgebinding, fabrial and unknown-but-appears-to-be-a-case-of-alive-all-along). Note that as it's a Surgebinding power, two orders of Radiants should be able to do it (Edgedancers and Truthwatchers - and we have a character from each order who is going to be a major character later on, in Lift and Renarin). I suppose you could even count Syl as another case, so Brandon has already matched RJ's total in just one book. I'm not sure what that adds to the series, besides a headache if he wants to kill anyone.

 

 

Sanderson is not RJ, and show casing RJ's limited use of resurection does absolutely nothing for your arguement so i wander what the point was for you bringing it up.  after all, these are two very different writers who have a widely different writing styel and who focus on very different aspects of their stories when writing  (ie: RJ was more into descriptions, where as Sanderson is more into religion and magic systems)

 

and resurection is a popular them in todays Fantasy Genre.  GRRM for instance uses is numerous times in his books, some of which are only partly (like where the Walkers come from and what resurected those bodies int eh first place nad why Cold Hands is different). 

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And therein lies the rub, as it were.  In this most recent post, you talk mostly about it "feeling" rushed, and other concepts in the realm of personal preference that I am absolutely willing to grant you.  Sure, you may have felt that it seemed wrong somehow.  I tend to think it's not the most internally consistent argument (especially considering that WoK ended with a similar revelation about the survival of another relatively minor character--Talanel), but if it rubbed you wrong, that's fine.  It didn't rub me wrong.  I felt the writing on the wall was sufficiently clear for the reader to guess what's going to happen, and I personally prefer to be able to guess a plot twist before I'm told.  I don't like being beaten over the head with something.

 

My main beef here is in the focus upon saying that there must not be any reason beyond keeping the reader in suspense, which can itself be a perfectly good reason for the timing, etc, and the truth is, there may well be plenty of other reasons to boot, AND it's also well within the pattern demonstrated by the rest of the series thus far to withhold that information.  There are any numbers of other revelations that were revealed at specific points that I haven't heard anyone complain about.  Singling out this one as a flaw seems to lack consistency.  And THAT's exactly the point.  I don't see anyone mad about any of the other resurrections which were handled in very similar fashion, and I don't see complaints about resurrections handled even more poorly in other works of fiction relevant to this forum.  To single this ONE particular instance out as a flaw therefore seems disingenuous.  It is VERY relevant and to my point.  Resurrection may well be a popular theme in fiction these days, and that is precisely why I find it silly to say anything beyond "I didn't like this particular instance," even though its presentation is consistent with the rest of the plot, and I have yet to see what I take to be a compelling argument that the reader SHOULD know the information, beyond staving off the occasional person's irritation because they got fooled.

 

Sure, it's obvious you're intended to think she's dead.  But it also doesn't stretch credulity to think that she might not, in fact, be dead.  In my estimation, the pieces to the puzzle were all there, and it's hardly surprising to consider that a character will be brought back, particularly if that character happens to be a Radiant, with well-demonstrated ability to survive things a normal person wouldn't.  I'd be very surprised if Sadeas is still alive, but Jasnah?  It seemed more unlikely that her story would just get ended so abruptly, particularly given the prologue, and thus, it struck ME as obvious that she'd be coming back considering how rushed and stressed Shallan was.  Am I saying that everyone should have known?  Of course not.  But I do think the clues were there to begin with, and being mad at Sanderson for how HE chooses to tell his story, especially if you aren't going to be consistent about complaining about all the rest of the similar situations, is disingenuous, and utterly reliant on one-sided speculation.

 

If we're mad about her survival, again, why her and not Kaladin, Shallan, Talanel, or Szeth?  And you're implying that it's not actually her survival that's the issue.  It's that Sanderson chose not to tell you overtly immediately.  What would that have added to the plot?  Why is it necessary for us to know that she's survived before we actually DO find out?  I think there's several clear reasons NOT to tell the reader, but I'm really not seeing why we NEED to know earlier.  And without answering those questions, aren't we really just saying "nuh uh, I didn't like it?"  The fact of her survival, from what I can see, doesn't do anything for the advancement of the plot, while the belief that she's dead DOES.  Letting the reader know that she's still alive earlier would have set up some rather radically different expectations on the part of the reader, and we cannot know how that would have panned out.  More, we don't know HOW Sanderson plans to integrate that backstory into the plot.  I think, based on the evidence we've seen so far from other characters, that it should be obvious that we WILL see that story, and that it WILL have some effect on driving the plot, magic system, etc later on in the tale, where introducing it earlier would likely just have left a gap that's far too large between the revelation of her survival, and the advancement of the plot it's intended to drive.  Until we know how Sanderson will use that information, I contend it is premature, as WELL as inconsistent, to make this sort of accusation.  

More, if we found out she was alive earlier, that would have robbed the situation of its emotional content, again, weakening the presentation of Shallan's motivations.  Far better to use the timing and descriptions to set up the desired emotional atmosphere than to rob it of all effect by immediately defusing it.  And if it had been done differently, we would have HAD to immediately tell Jasnah's side (which would have turned her into a POV character, and we would have known from the section title that she didn't die), and thus would have lost the entirety of the POINT of her presumed death.  And, I think it's clear that the story til now didn't need any inquiries into the methodology of her survival (something we very likely would have to explain to counter the details Shallan saw), and those revelations would have distracted us from the revelations about Shallan's back story.  Again, there are plenty of compelling reasons to keep things as they are.  What are the compelling reasons to change things, and face the challenges I've just mentioned, especially not knowing how her survival will drive future aspects of the plot?

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For that matter, Jasnah's survival is similar to Nalan's, just writ smaller.  Why are other Heralds besides Talanel still alive?  Why wait so long to hear about them?  I really don't see why it's worth getting annoyed by Jasnah with all of these other characters to also be annoyed about.  And at least it seems to play a role in the development of the story.  I'm certainly happier about Sanderson's use of resurrection of these characters than I was with Jordan repeatedly resurrecting Forsaken who had been killed.  I'm still unclear on what that added to the story, aside from a sense of futility.  But that's just me.

Well, being annoyed at one character doesn't preclude being annoyed at another. As for the Heralds, they appear to be immortal, but aren't major players. And I prefer RJ's use of resurrection - it requires Shai'tan's intervention, there are limits, and the possibility of it is mentioned in the first book. It's also used very sparingly (four times in fourteen books). Sanderson uses it three times in this book alone, via different methods each time (Surgebinding, fabrial and unknown-but-appears-to-be-a-case-of-alive-all-along). Note that as it's a Surgebinding power, two orders of Radiants should be able to do it (Edgedancers and Truthwatchers - and we have a character from each order who is going to be a major character later on, in Lift and Renarin). I suppose you could even count Syl as another case, so Brandon has already matched RJ's total in just one book. I'm not sure what that adds to the series, besides a headache if he wants to kill anyone.

 

 

Sanderson is not RJ, and show casing RJ's limited use of resurection does absolutely nothing for your arguement so i wander what the point was for you bringing it up.

 

Errmmm...he didn't. It was a rebuttal.

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For that matter, Jasnah's survival is similar to Nalan's, just writ smaller.  Why are other Heralds besides Talanel still alive?  Why wait so long to hear about them?  I really don't see why it's worth getting annoyed by Jasnah with all of these other characters to also be annoyed about.  And at least it seems to play a role in the development of the story.  I'm certainly happier about Sanderson's use of resurrection of these characters than I was with Jordan repeatedly resurrecting Forsaken who had been killed.  I'm still unclear on what that added to the story, aside from a sense of futility.  But that's just me.

Well, being annoyed at one character doesn't preclude being annoyed at another. As for the Heralds, they appear to be immortal, but aren't major players. And I prefer RJ's use of resurrection - it requires Shai'tan's intervention, there are limits, and the possibility of it is mentioned in the first book. It's also used very sparingly (four times in fourteen books). Sanderson uses it three times in this book alone, via different methods each time (Surgebinding, fabrial and unknown-but-appears-to-be-a-case-of-alive-all-along). Note that as it's a Surgebinding power, two orders of Radiants should be able to do it (Edgedancers and Truthwatchers - and we have a character from each order who is going to be a major character later on, in Lift and Renarin). I suppose you could even count Syl as another case, so Brandon has already matched RJ's total in just one book. I'm not sure what that adds to the series, besides a headache if he wants to kill anyone.

 

 

Sanderson is not RJ, and show casing RJ's limited use of resurection does absolutely nothing for your arguement so i wander what the point was for you bringing it up.

 

Errmmm...he didn't. It was a rebuttal.

 

 I was assuming she was talking to me, not Mr. Ares.

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Errmmm...he didn't. It was a rebuttal.

 

 I was assuming she was talking to me, not Mr. Ares.

 

 

Well as you mentioned Jordan's "repeated" use and Mr Ares pointed out it was quite limited in comparison not sure how that would be the case. Guess Red can clarify though. *shrug*

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Errmmm...he didn't. It was a rebuttal.

 

 I was assuming she was talking to me, not Mr. Ares.

 

 

Well as you mentioned Jordan's "repeated" use and Mr Ares pointed out it was quite limited in comparison not sure how that would be the case. Guess Red can clarify though. *shrug*

 

 

i quoted both crimson and ares in that post Sut, and you left out 75% of my response.

 

 

the clarification on my post is this.

 

 

this thread is to dicsuss Words of Radience (on the series own merit), not compare and contrast how authors handle plot mechanics.  Sanderson books have enough uniqueness and content to stand up on their own without needing to be compared to other works of fantasy.  and that if we're goign down the rabbit hole of "well this author handled thise situation better", that we need to do so with the perspective that 90% of the content all books in the Fantasy genre deal with, are nothing more than rehashed ideas that have been around since before the legends and myths were put in written format.

 

and comparing how Sanderson handled one aspect of his series to how other authors have handled it is disingenous and irrelevant, as its purely an individuals perspective and opinion of authors, and adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

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"More, if we found out she was alive earlier, that would have robbed the situation of its emotional content, again, weakening the presentation of Shallan's motivations. Far better to use the timing and descriptions to set up the desired emotional atmosphere than to rob it of all effect by immediately defusing it."

 

Completely agree. Thought Sanderson handled this aspect beautifully.

 

"Just because it was possible for her to have survived, doesn't mean survival should be presumed. Clearly, the presentation is such that "Jasnah is dead" is the most obvious reading, with only the missing body giving us reason to doubt this, and that only because it's an out of place detail."

 

Well, I don't believe this is the most "obvious" reading at all. It may have seemed "obvious" to you, but you turned out to be wrong. I am not sure why after reading that portion you would have presumed either way. I certainly didn't.

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I enjoyed this book...I wonder tho what Wit is???  I have a guess but I am probably wrong.  And it was interesting what goes on w/ Shardblades....And what is the deal w/ Honorblades anyway??

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and resurection is a popular them in todays Fantasy Genre.  GRRM for instance uses is numerous times in his books, some of which are only partly (like where the Walkers come from and what resurected those bodies int eh first place nad why Cold Hands is different).

I know. I mentioned Martin's use of it earlier in the thread.

 

And therein lies the rub, as it were.  In this most recent post, you talk mostly about it "feeling" rushed, and other concepts in the realm of personal preference that I am absolutely willing to grant you.  Sure, you may have felt that it seemed wrong somehow.  I tend to think it's not the most internally consistent argument (especially considering that WoK ended with a similar revelation about the survival of another relatively minor character--Talanel), but if it rubbed you wrong, that's fine.  It didn't rub me wrong.  I felt the writing on the wall was sufficiently clear for the reader to guess what's going to happen, and I personally prefer to be able to guess a plot twist before I'm told.  I don't like being beaten over the head with something.

 

My main beef here is in the focus upon saying that there must not be any reason beyond keeping the reader in suspense, which can itself be a perfectly good reason for the timing, etc, and the truth is, there may well be plenty of other reasons to boot, AND it's also well within the pattern demonstrated by the rest of the series thus far to withhold that information.  There are any numbers of other revelations that were revealed at specific points that I haven't heard anyone complain about.  Singling out this one as a flaw seems to lack consistency.  And THAT's exactly the point.  I don't see anyone mad about any of the other resurrections which were handled in very similar fashion, and I don't see complaints about resurrections handled even more poorly in other works of fiction relevant to this forum.  To single this ONE particular instance out as a flaw therefore seems disingenuous.  It is VERY relevant and to my point.  Resurrection may well be a popular theme in fiction these days, and that is precisely why I find it silly to say anything beyond "I didn't like this particular instance," even though its presentation is consistent with the rest of the plot, and I have yet to see what I take to be a compelling argument that the reader SHOULD know the information, beyond staving off the occasional person's irritation because they got fooled.

 

Sure, it's obvious you're intended to think she's dead.  But it also doesn't stretch credulity to think that she might not, in fact, be dead.  In my estimation, the pieces to the puzzle were all there, and it's hardly surprising to consider that a character will be brought back, particularly if that character happens to be a Radiant, with well-demonstrated ability to survive things a normal person wouldn't.  I'd be very surprised if Sadeas is still alive, but Jasnah?  It seemed more unlikely that her story would just get ended so abruptly, particularly given the prologue, and thus, it struck ME as obvious that she'd be coming back considering how rushed and stressed Shallan was.  Am I saying that everyone should have known?  Of course not.  But I do think the clues were there to begin with, and being mad at Sanderson for how HE chooses to tell his story, especially if you aren't going to be consistent about complaining about all the rest of the similar situations, is disingenuous, and utterly reliant on one-sided speculation.

 

If we're mad about her survival, again, why her and not Kaladin, Shallan, Talanel, or Szeth?  And you're implying that it's not actually her survival that's the issue.  It's that Sanderson chose not to tell you overtly immediately.  What would that have added to the plot?  Why is it necessary for us to know that she's survived before we actually DO find out?  I think there's several clear reasons NOT to tell the reader, but I'm really not seeing why we NEED to know earlier.  And without answering those questions, aren't we really just saying "nuh uh, I didn't like it?"  The fact of her survival, from what I can see, doesn't do anything for the advancement of the plot, while the belief that she's dead DOES.  Letting the reader know that she's still alive earlier would have set up some rather radically different expectations on the part of the reader, and we cannot know how that would have panned out.  More, we don't know HOW Sanderson plans to integrate that backstory into the plot.  I think, based on the evidence we've seen so far from other characters, that it should be obvious that we WILL see that story, and that it WILL have some effect on driving the plot, magic system, etc later on in the tale, where introducing it earlier would likely just have left a gap that's far too large between the revelation of her survival, and the advancement of the plot it's intended to drive.  Until we know how Sanderson will use that information, I contend it is premature, as WELL as inconsistent, to make this sort of accusation.

 

More, if we found out she was alive earlier, that would have robbed the situation of its emotional content, again, weakening the presentation of Shallan's motivations.  Far better to use the timing and descriptions to set up the desired emotional atmosphere than to rob it of all effect by immediately defusing it.  And if it had been done differently, we would have HAD to immediately tell Jasnah's side (which would have turned her into a POV character, and we would have known from the section title that she didn't die), and thus would have lost the entirety of the POINT of her presumed death.  And, I think it's clear that the story til now didn't need any inquiries into the methodology of her survival (something we very likely would have to explain to counter the details Shallan saw), and those revelations would have distracted us from the revelations about Shallan's back story.  Again, there are plenty of compelling reasons to keep things as they are.  What are the compelling reasons to change things, and face the challenges I've just mentioned, especially not knowing how her survival will drive future aspects of the plot?

I made the point earlier in the thread that I don't object to resurrection per se - it's a tool, it can be used well or badly. Talanel's resurrection, for example, is handled well - it's stated in the Prelude that Kalak had died several times. Talanel's resurrection to handle an upcoming Desolation is something that would be unexpected only because enough pages have passed that one might have forgotten the details of the Prelude by the end of WoK. My problem isn't specifically even with Jasnah's resurrection, despite that having become something of a focus for the debate. There are several resurrections in this book, and even if each is justified on its own merits the quantity of them undermines some of the peril we might feel the characters to be in - Sadeas was the biggest death in the book that wasn't undone, and it's notable that he's an antagonist and unlike Szeth (also presented as an antagonist) he is not presented in a sympathetic light - he's planning to take over Alethkar for his own personal power. Part of the problem with Jasnah's resurrection was timing. I'll grant you that we don't need to be told immediately - I merely presented that as a possible solution. As it is, Jasnah's resurrection comes shortly after Szeth's. Essentially, it's a repeat of the same plot twist, and made glaringly obvious as such because of when we see it. By changing the perspective of the death to Jasnah's, or undercutting the "death" by showing her survival immediately, the plot twist is different. Her return to Roshar can still happen in the epilogue. Out of Jasnah and Szeth, I think Jasnah is the easier one to "fix" - because of the long time between her death and resurrection, we have greater opportunity to show her alive, while Szeth dies near the end of the book, leaving rather less room for manoeuvre. To move Szeth's death earlier in the book creates problems structurally, as something else has to fill the void he leaves or the climax becomes lesser. Also, the mechanism of his resurrection requires a quite significant coincidence (a guy with the right fabrial being in the right place at the right time - when Szeth and Kaladin had a battle that saw them flying a fairly significant distance). Jasnah can be solved with just a perspective shift, and because she remains out of the narrative regardless it doesn't create the same structural problems. Alternatively, I suppose you could fix the problem either by killing Szeth outright and leaving him dead or by having him flee the scene and Nalan catching up to him later. Running away does mean that the others are going to be looking over their shoulders for the Assassin in White, though, and it means changing Szeth's character arc to remove the death wish. Leaving him dead runs the risk of his chapters feeling pointless, like we've been investing in a character who doesn't go anywhere, and would certainly require Brandon rework future plans considerably (although his being the flashback character in the next book isn't necessarily a problem, as Brandon has said that he's willing to give characters flashback POV chapters even if they're dead in the present - in other words, there's no guarantee someone will live to book X just because we get their backstory revealed there). I hope that makes my position a bit clearer.

 

 

this thread is to dicsuss Words of Radience (on the series own merit), not compare and contrast how authors handle plot mechanics.  Sanderson books have enough uniqueness and content to stand up on their own without needing to be compared to other works of fantasy.  and that if we're goign down the rabbit hole of "well this author handled thise situation better", that we need to do so with the perspective that 90% of the content all books in the Fantasy genre deal with, are nothing more than rehashed ideas that have been around since before the legends and myths were put in written format.

 

and comparing how Sanderson handled one aspect of his series to how other authors have handled it is disingenous and irrelevant, as its purely an individuals perspective and opinion of authors, and adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Using examples from other series (by Brandon or other authors) to illustrate the point you're making about WoR is still making a point about WoR, and therefore still on topic, and can be very relevant. To deny us the ability to make these comparisons is to needlessly stifle discussion.

 

"More, if we found out she was alive earlier, that would have robbed the situation of its emotional content, again, weakening the presentation of Shallan's motivations. Far better to use the timing and descriptions to set up the desired emotional atmosphere than to rob it of all effect by immediately defusing it." Completely agree. Thought Sanderson handled this aspect beautifully. "Just because it was possible for her to have survived, doesn't mean survival should be presumed. Clearly, the presentation is such that "Jasnah is dead" is the most obvious reading, with only the missing body giving us reason to doubt this, and that only because it's an out of place detail." Well, I don't believe this is the most "obvious" reading at all. It may have seemed "obvious" to you, but you turned out to be wrong. I am not sure why after reading that portion you would have presumed either way. I certainly didn't.

If you had bothered reading my posts properly, you'd know that I never assumed Jasnah was dead.

 

I enjoyed this book...I wonder tho what Wit is???  I have a guess but I am probably wrong.  And it was interesting what goes on w/ Shardblades....And what is the deal w/ Honorblades anyway??

Care to share your guesses on Wit?

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Wit is Hoid, and has appeared in every single one of Sanderson's Cosmere books. It's pretty clear in the text.

Edited by Werthead

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As follows:

 

Hoid is notable as the only character to appear in all of Sanderson's Cosmere works to date, either directly or through writings or other evidence. According to Sanderson, Hoid is not the most knowledgeable or experienced 'worldhopper' in the Cosmere, but is notable for his independent streak (not being part of the Seventeenth Shard, at least not anymore) and also for having been present at the Shattering. Hoid appears to be quite old, intimating on occasion that he is hundreds, if not thousands, of years old. Hoid's origins are murky, but a letter suggests that Hoid is not his real name and he took the name from his slain mentor (sample chapters from The Liar of Partinel suggest that Hoid's real name is Midius, but this information is non-canon until the book itself is completed and published).

Hoid's appearances in the Cosmere books are as follows:

  • Elantris: Hoid, disguised as a beggar, helps Sarene smuggle weapons into Elantris.
  • The Emperor's Soul: Hoid, disguised as the Imperial Fool for the Rose Empire, betrays Shai to arrest and imprisonment for reasons unknown.
  • The Final Empire: Hoid acts as a street informant in Luthadel, giving intel to Kelsier.
  • The Well of Ascension: Hoid, disguised as a Terrisman, spends the book hunting for the Well in Terris before backtracking to Luthadel and briefly meeting Elend and Spook outside the city.
  • The Hero of Ages: Hoid acts a street informant again, this time in Fadrex City. Vin goes to him for information, but an overwhelming feel of dread fills her and she decides not to talk to him. It's been theorised that Vin had been touched by the power of Ruin at this point and this may have given her the feeling of antipahy towards Hoid.
  • The Alloy of Law: Disguised, again, as a beggar, Hoid attends the wedding of Lord Yomen and Lady Ostlin. He also appears to have directly written the book's appendix.
  • Warbreaker: Disguised as a storyteller, Hoid recounts tales to Lightsong and Siri.
  • The Way of Kings: Hoid takes the name 'Wit' and works behind the scenes at the Alethkar royal court. He also writes a letter to the Seventeenth Shard that is periodically referenced in the book.
  • Words of Radiance: Hoid continues in his role as Wit, taking an interest in both Kaladin and Shallan. He appears to have received a reply to his letter from the previous book, which is again quoted extensively.

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