Doctor Who

[SinisterDeath]

Just watched the 50th Anniversary Special, The Day of the Doctor.

Loved it, and I can't wait for the Christmas episode!

[Silver]

Good stuff. Really thought provoking episode. And kind of confusing keeping track with the different time stream rules they're making and breaking.

[SinisterDeath]

Well, I liked how they changed everything, but still made it fit perfectly together.

 

Also, it almost looks like the 13th doctor, is the one they showed the old one turning into after. His was the only face, we didn't see fully, even at the end of the episode where they showed '12' doctors.

[Xthrax]

Nah, the John Hurt Doctor, i.e; the old one-the War Doctor is between the 8th and 9th doctor. So he will regenerate into the 9th doctor, Eccleston. On another note, loved the episode. Just awesome! The banter between 10th and 11th and how the war doctor silences them with just a few sentences. And they showed Peter Capaldi's 12th doctor just for a few secs too and the rest of the doctors too. 

 

 

Gallifrey is saved too! Hope to go back there again

 

[Mr Ares]

So I guess I'm the only person left deeply underwhelmed? Yes, it had good moments, but a few good moments don't offset an unsatisfying whole. The conclusions to both the Zygon and Time War plots felt convenient and lazy - happy ending by authorial fiat rather than because it was earned. It also didn't work as a celebration of Doctor Who's history, because it ignored it (part of why the Doctor destroyed the Time Lords is because of what they had become - Rassilon was on the verge of destroying the universe to set them up as gods, a problem this story conveniently ignored). John Hurt made a great Doctor, but it still leaves me wondering why they felt the need to crowbar in a new Doctor to begin with? "He's the one I don't talk about. Except I talk about what I did when I was him all the time, in fact I probably spend more time talking about him than I do the times when I used to wear that really awful coat. So that explains why you didn't meet him when you went through my entire time stream... Er, look over there"*runs*. I'm not even sure why this Doctor is supposed to be so much worse - the Doctor has committed genocide before, and with less cause. The difference lies in the personal cost to him of having to destroy his own people, not in the morality of the decision. So why is this the Doctor who "broke the promise"? Fundamentally, I don't see the decision the War Doctor made as being any different to what any of his fellows would have done in the same situation. By the end, using the Moment still felt like the best decision, because there was no other solution that wouldn't come across as overly convenient and terrible writing - which is why it not being used and the other option taken feels overly convenient, and like terrible writing. It feels like the exact same mistake as the Parting of the Ways - the Doctor refuses to take the action necessary to stop the Daleks, even though this will save countless lives, and the only people who will die as a result of his action are those that the Daleks are busy killing at the moment, so you can't save them anyway. And, just like that story, the problem magically disappears. Also, the Time War felt terribly underwhelming. Not nearly as interesting as when all we had was a series of vague but cool sounding names, and even that was rather less interesting than the Time War in the novels.

[Feral]

So I guess I'm the only person left deeply underwhelmed? 

 

 

Nope. John Hurt's Doctor really disappointed me. I was expecting a really dark, sinister character. Instead we got a grouchy but rather pleasant chap. And I wanted to see Rose Tyler as Rose Tyler. And why did Tennant's Doctor echo "Bad Wolf" when Hurt mentioned it, then just forget about it? Also, I feel like saving Galifrey will take away from the Doctor's character. 

[Silver]

 It feels like the exact same mistake as the Parting of the Ways - the Doctor refuses to take the action necessary to stop the Daleks, even though this will save countless lives, and the only people who will die as a result of his action are those that the Daleks are busy killing at the moment, so you can't save them anyway. And, just like that story, the problem magically disappears. Also, the Time War felt terribly underwhelming. Not nearly as interesting as when all we had was a series of vague but cool sounding names, and even that was rather less interesting than the Time War in the novels.

 

 

Yeah, was thinking that while watching. They're timelords with loads of time machines, and all it took was thirteen instances of 1 time machine to save the day? And even then, the Daleks will magically destroy them selves in a crossfire? All of them?

 

And the timewars were so... generic. I'm not sure what i expected but it sure wasn't medieval age people with laser guns. Also, I kept looking for timelords regerating in the battle field but there were none.

[SinisterDeath]

 

 It feels like the exact same mistake as the Parting of the Ways - the Doctor refuses to take the action necessary to stop the Daleks, even though this will save countless lives, and the only people who will die as a result of his action are those that the Daleks are busy killing at the moment, so you can't save them anyway. And, just like that story, the problem magically disappears. Also, the Time War felt terribly underwhelming. Not nearly as interesting as when all we had was a series of vague but cool sounding names, and even that was rather less interesting than the Time War in the novels.

 

 

Yeah, was thinking that while watching. They're timelords with loads of time machines, and all it took was thirteen instances of 1 time machine to save the day? And even then, the Daleks will magically destroy them selves in a crossfire? All of them?

 

And the timewars were so... generic. I'm not sure what i expected but it sure wasn't medieval age people with laser guns. Also, I kept looking for timelords regerating in the battle field but there were none.

 

You know, I thought about that, and I wonder if they didn't retcon the Whole of Doctor who with some Bad Wolf.

Recall 'Roses' words about the doctor and having to 'live' with this choice. Granted, if the old doctor was between the 8th and 9th.. but its still entirely possible that 'bad wolf' made the first doctor able to 'live forever'. (She has that power.)

 

But this doesn't explain some of the 'other' time lords who have similar abilities...

[Werthead]

Rassilon was on the verge of destroying the universe to set them up as gods, a problem this story conveniently ignored

 

The last time we saw Rassilon, he was busy being electrocuted by the Master. I think the idea is that when the Doctor finds Gallifrey, they can say that Rassilon and the other, crazier members of the High Council are dead and have the Master missing, hanging around or maybe even ruling Gallifrey, creating a new crises for the Doctor to resolve.

 

the Doctor has committed genocide before, and with less cause

 

When?

 

The closest is when the Doctor destroyed Skaro, the Dalek homeworld, in Remembrance of the Daleks. But it was never made clear what timeframe this was in. If it was after the Daleks on Skaro were effectively wiped out (in Evil of the Daleks) it wouldn't really matter. It was also (according to Russell T. Davies) part of the Time War, the Doctor destroying the Dalek planet in retaliation for the Daleks' attempt to destroy the High Council (in Resurrection of the Daleks).

 

Aside from that, there is no instance in the whole history of Who when the Doctor chooses to destroy billions of people simultaneously for the 'greater good'.

 

I'm not sure what i expected but it sure wasn't medieval age people with laser guns.

 

 

The Time Lords have always been presented a bit weirdly. With all of time and space at their command, why do they hang out on a desert planet that doesn't look like being hospitable to life? The 'medieval laser gun' thing has been how they've been presented since at least The Deadly Assassin (in 1977), so there is consistency there.

 

Also, I kept looking for timelords regerating in the battle field but there were none.

 

Most of the soldiers would be Gallifreyans, not Time Lords: Time Lords are Gallifreyans - and extremely rarely other humanoid species - given sets of regenerations after graduating from the Time Lord Academy. Normal Gallifreyans can't regenerate and seem (based on the Doctor's granddaughter) to have a lifespan similar to humans. There are still millions of Time Lords, but out of billions and billions of Gallifreyans. It's also likely a lot of the actual Time Lords are off fighting the Daleks in remote corners of time and space at this point.

 

On another level, there is also fan speculation that the Daleks, aware of regeneration, may have modified their weapons to override it and just kill Time Lords stone dead, a bit like how astronaut River (or whatever she was) did to the fake-Doctor a couple of seasons back.

[Mr Ares]

 

Rassilon was on the verge of destroying the universe to set them up as gods, a problem this story conveniently ignored

 

The last time we saw Rassilon, he was busy being electrocuted by the Master. I think the idea is that when the Doctor finds Gallifrey, they can say that Rassilon and the other, crazier members of the High Council are dead and have the Master missing, hanging around or maybe even ruling Gallifrey, creating a new crises for the Doctor to resolve.

 

It's still ignoring the problem rather than addressing or resolving it. For all the Doctor knows, he's going to free Gallifrey and Rassilon's still in charge and still aiming to use the Final Sanction.

 

the Doctor has committed genocide before, and with less cause

 

When?

 

The closest is when the Doctor destroyed Skaro, the Dalek homeworld, in Remembrance of the Daleks. But it was never made clear what timeframe this was in. If it was after the Daleks on Skaro were effectively wiped out (in Evil of the Daleks) it wouldn't really matter. It was also (according to Russell T. Davies) part of the Time War, the Doctor destroying the Dalek planet in retaliation for the Daleks' attempt to destroy the High Council (in Resurrection of the Daleks).

 

In Terror of the Vervoids, the Doctor wipes out the Vervoids, and is explicitly called out on committing genocide. His justification is that they were a threat to humanity, which would qualify as "less cause" than a threat to the entire universe and everyone in it. The scale of death caused by the War Doctor may be greater, but the crime is fundamentally the same, and the stakes if he failed to do it were greater. So, I stand by what I said: he has committed genocide before, and with less cause. It's a difference in degree, not in kind. Had he not used the Moment, either the Daleks kill everyone or the Time Lords kill everyone, so he killed them both. Fundamentally, it's no different to any other time he's killed people to save lives. His guilt over it, I understand. The idea that this Doctor did something so fundamentally different to the others that he broke the promise, that's what I don't. I said before, I don't see it as being different to what any of his other incarnations would have done in the same circumstances - something this episode bears out rather than rejects, because his other incarnations are there, with him, and agree to go through with it until Clara talks them out of it.

[Werthead]

For all the Doctor knows, he's going to free Gallifrey and Rassilon's still in charge and still aiming to use the Final Sanction.

 

That's something he can deal with at the time. Also, the Doctor did see the Master attacking Rassilon before the time lock came down again.

 

In Terror of the Vervoids, the Doctor wipes out the Vervoids, and is explicitly called out on committing genocide

 

That's always been a stretch. There were only a couple of Vervoids, they were a genetically-created species (not a natural one) and they were going to kill the Doctor and everyone else on the spacecraft (and then on Earth) if they weren't destroyed in turn. So that was direct self-defence as well.

 

Killing three beings is very different from killing tens of billions.

[badhead]

There are people complaining that it was Piper was not playing Rose.   Is anyone eles like me and hates Rose?

[Cybertrolloc]

Her character was occasionally annoying, willfully ignorant and things along that line, but the problem was more with how she was used. Martha was better acted and cooler, but again not used so well most of the time. Donna had a better actress still and was written better, dropped the ball on the writing out. Amy and Rory had some great stuff, fell apart a bit at the end (horrible divorce subplot for that one moment in Asylum).

 

Hands up if you want to forget End of Time, like the writers apparently do :) It was fun and had some hilarious over-acting, so there was that and the overarching war changed the Timelords was a good wheeze. Moffat's generally good with the immediate consequences of the things he does, so I'd need to view again but whoever Dalton played might still be on the table.

 

Other concerns above, remember specials tend to be even more canon-lite than Who is regularly, so there's that. And I imagine they wanted a lighter-hearted ep since we're going to lose Smith next time. I don't think it's that unusual for the Doctor to pull something out of his ass and fix everything, but like above, I'm minorly annoyed over the bleh depiction of Timelord weapons. They seemed to have the budget to do whatever they wanted, why not something weird?

 

It was fun, and I didn't figure it out first go but felt I should have, which is what Moffat usually goes for.

[Mr Ares]

 

For all the Doctor knows, he's going to free Gallifrey and Rassilon's still in charge and still aiming to use the Final Sanction.

 

That's something he can deal with at the time. Also, the Doctor did see the Master attacking Rassilon before the time lock came down again.

 

Yes, he can deal with it at the time, but my problem isn't that no solution to this problem cannot be found, it's that there is no acknowledgement that there is a problem to solve. All it would take is a couple of lines of dialogue to fix. And while the Doctor saw the Master attacking Rassilon, Rassilon was not acting alone. He mentioned his plan in front of hundreds of Time Lords. And the Doctor's first action on learning the Time Lords were coming back was to grab a gun. The disparity between the two stories - one indicating the Time Lords surviving is bad news, the other acting as if the Daleks are the only problem - is what led me to say that it was ignoring the past rather than celebrating it.

 

In Terror of the Vervoids, the Doctor wipes out the Vervoids, and is explicitly called out on committing genocide

 

That's always been a stretch. There were only a couple of Vervoids, they were a genetically-created species (not a natural one) and they were going to kill the Doctor and everyone else on the spacecraft (and then on Earth) if they weren't destroyed in turn. So that was direct self-defence as well.

 

Killing three beings is very different from killing tens of billions.

In quantity, yes. In practicality, yes. In principle, no. And I fail to see how it's relevant that they were genetically created and not natural? As for direct self defence, as I said earlier if the Daleks win they kill everyone, if the Time Lords win they kill everyone. So wiping them both out is a choice made to save the Doctor and everyone else in the universe. The principle is the same, the difference is the number of people dying and the fact that he has to kill his own people. So, as I said, I understand why it hangs heavy on his conscience, but I don't understand why it's considered so fundamentally different. It isn't, it is fundamentally the same, only scaled up and given greater personal relevance. Which is why I don't buy the "breaking the promise" line.

 

Her character was occasionally annoying, willfully ignorant and things along that line, but the problem was more with how she was used. Martha was better acted and cooler, but again not used so well most of the time. Donna had a better actress still and was written better, dropped the ball on the writing out. Amy and Rory had some great stuff, fell apart a bit at the end (horrible divorce subplot for that one moment in Asylum).

Also, I think the use of Rose worsened over time - good with Eccelstone, bad with Tennant, worse with the call backs to her when Martha was companion.

 

Hands up if you want to forget End of Time, like the writers apparently do :) It was fun and had some hilarious over-acting, so there was that and the overarching war changed the Timelords was a good wheeze. Moffat's generally good with the immediate consequences of the things he does, so I'd need to view again but whoever Dalton played might still be on the table.

 

Other concerns above, remember specials tend to be even more canon-lite than Who is regularly, so there's that. And I imagine they wanted a lighter-hearted ep since we're going to lose Smith next time. I don't think it's that unusual for the Doctor to pull something out of his ass and fix everything, but like above, I'm minorly annoyed over the bleh depiction of Timelord weapons. They seemed to have the budget to do whatever they wanted, why not something weird?

 

It was fun, and I didn't figure it out first go but felt I should have, which is what Moffat usually goes for.

I don't have a problem with trying to avoid Grimdark excess in your anniversary special - so maybe the story of how the Doctor committed genocide on his own people isn't the one to be telling? And yes, the Doctor pulling a convenient solution out of his arse is not something new to the series, but most of Doctor Who's best episodes have tended to avoid it. Solutions coming with significant cost or being well set up tend to go down better. The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances has a good conclusion, with "just this once, everybody lives". It makes sense - it feels like the natural conclusion to the story. Day of the Doctor felt like the natural conclusion of the story lay in Tennant and Smith being there, using the Moment alongside Hurt, acknowledging that no matter how hard his decision was it was the right one under the circumstances and this time he doesn't have to face it alone. But then Moffat decided this was too dark and so changed it at the last minute in a wholly contrived and unconvincing manner. The Zygon storyline also felt contrived and overly convenient, not to mention poorly thought out - I'm not sure how the amnesia makes the negotiations fairer. It would have been simpler, and made more sense to just have the Doctor barge in, disarm the bomb with a wave of his screwdriver and demand that they negotiate and sort things out.

[Cybertrolloc]

I guess it's fair to say that most of the last season of stories would have benefited from a couple more minutes, and the special probably needed even a bit more than that (i.e. Eleventh Hour at 60odd minutes was so beautifully paced even though the actual problem was something as Moffat said the Doctor could have handled in an email). However the last few 2 parters have been problematical as well (too much or too little plot).

 

At least it takes a few minutes thought to improve the story instead of 2 seconds which is most of tv :)

 

I wouldn't call the solution unestablished, the bit with the door and the Zygons mirrored the silly Gallifrey solution (which should have been better, granted). Also see time limits, something had to give (of course a good writer should be able to plan a satisfying story into the time he has to work with). Story-wise, I think this one made better use of time than most of season 7, which was pretty much trying to pack too much into 45 minutes and not giving anything time to breathe with a few exceptions of too little story to carry the ep. But I've posted that in one of the many other Dr Who threads already.

 

I'll give another view with my Ares Harrumph face on and get back to you.

 

Edit: not online anywhere accessible to me yet. Also they'd better never light Capaldi from below again else the Daleks will be frightened off and there won't be a show :)

[Bannakaffalatta]

Okay, I may be rehashing something here, but bear with me. John Hurt, fantastic actor, witty, grumpy Doctor, wasn't bad, I rather enjoyed him. But I felt he was forced from his first appearance on Trenzalore (sp?). Why couldn't Paul McGann have come back and had another go at the Doctor and wrap his regen at the end in the same fashion that Hurt did? Blame it on the stresses of being at the origin of the time fissure or some such nonsense. The 8.5 Doctor thing bugged me from the beginning, but I could be wrong and way off base.

[Lilbaz]

Because it now makes smith the 13th doctor (tennant had a regen but didn't change).

 

Makes it a bit more interesting for the xmas special. To find out how capaldi comes in as time lords are only meant to be able to regen 12 times.

[SinisterDeath]

Bad wolf is how.

[Bannakaffalatta]

Bad Wolf is all

[Lilbaz]

Have to admit i didn't like dw. Thought it was too much of a pantomime. Then i watched the doctors wife and was left blubbering.

Still pantomime but shows like agents of shield could learn a lot from it.

[John_stark]

Been a long time DW fan for now. 

I've seen some of the classic episodes and pretty much all of the new ones. 

 

I liked the day of the doctor, i was expecting it to be epic but what i wasn't expecting it to be was to be so funny.

Honestly, to me the episode felt more of a in-joke on Who culture than a new tale of epic proportions.

I'm unsure whether the ending was a really neat idea or a shameful cop out, but only the future will tell. 

[Zhon]

Here's a question for you all.  If you were forced to pick just one, what is your absolute favorite moment/scene out of ALL of the Doctor Who you have ever watched?

 

For me, it's "Wake Up" from Rings of Akhaten.  Something about the song itself is just so powerful, and the Doctor talking about the things he's seen and done, the pain and joy you see in mixed together in his face as he stares down a parasite the size of a sun, nothing I've seen so far has been able to compare to that scene in terms of sheer power and majesty.

[Basel Gill]

I really liked this one:

 

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

they should replace all the old footage with that now

[Xthrax]

Christmas Special, it was great!