Why is Elayne's Story so criticized

[EmperorAllspice]

One of the main things I noticed while  looking up stuff about WOT is that people seem really torn on Perrin's, Elayne's and Egwene's arcs.

 

As a result I was really wary when I finally got to it but so far I've been really enjoying it. We have a relatively competent darkfriend antagonist and there's lot of politiking. Maybe I like it more since I went in expecting it to be bad so I was pleasantly surprised.

 

So why is it so often critisized? Is it a length thing? Will it get more annoying now that I'm past book 10?

[Agitel]

Actually, book 10 is probably the reason why it's hated so much. It's the lack of movement in her plot.

[EmperorAllspice]

But the Chibi-Lords!

 

They're so cute.

[szilard]

Short answer: see the people around them

Perrin's crew: do you honestly care about anybody? ( Plus tons of new characters in every second paragraph.) 

El got Avi, Nyn, Bir (to quote my pals: they are MIA): see the sentence above.

Eg's story is quite good but most of the secondary characters are uninteresting.


Rand (or Mat) doesn't need anybody around him. Of course, their arc sometimes wavers: see Rand in TPOD/WH, see Mat in ACOS.

[EmperorAllspice]

Short answer: see the people around them

 

Perrin's crew: do you honestly care about anybody? ( Plus tons of new characters in every second paragraph.) 

 

El got Avi, Nyn, Bir (to quote my pals: they are MIA): see the sentence above.

Eg's story is quite good but most of the secondary characters are uninteresting.

 

 

Rand (or Mat) doesn't need anybody around him. Of course, their arc sometimes wavers: see Rand in TPOD/WH, see Mat in ACOS.

I care about Arganda, Gallenne, Dannil, the Ash'aman, Seonid and Masuri, Masema. All those in Perrin's arc.

 

Just saying.

[szilard]

The readers care about the main characters + 15-20 secondary characters. The readers want to read about them.

Mr Jordan constantly give us new characters (40-60-80 people) but he doesn't give them enough room (everybody needs 8-10 chapters at least to grab our real attention).

Ok, the story is going on its way so we need new actors but:

If he gives them more space, the Big Five/Six will suffer and vice versa. That's a huge problem for writers.
 

[EmperorAllspice]

The readers care about the main characters + 15-20 secondary characters. The readers want to read about them.

 

Mr Jordan constantly give us new characters (40-60-80 people) but he doesn't give them enough room (everybody needs 8-10 chapters at least to grab our real attention).

 

Ok, the story is going on its way so we need new actors but:

 

If he gives them more space, the Big Five/Six will suffer and vice versa. That's a huge problem for writers.

 

I duno. I liked a lot of the characters after only a few chapters. The chapters are always from the pov of the primary cast, save for odd ones here and there and the prologues. so they don't really lose the focus.

[szilard]

I'll give you an example.

I have just finished HP. While I like Tonks, Remus, Fred their deaths  are nothing to me because they are not developed persons they are just empty names "without substance".

Same goes for Aram ,Berelain, Masuri, Grady, Arganda, Balwer, Seonid, Neald, Dannil, Elyas etc.

[EmperorAllspice]

I can't agree. Sorry, I can't. I cared about all those people you mentioned. Except Berelain. Never liked her.

 

they certainly aren't "empty names"

 

I didn'tcry when tonks and everyone died but I rarely cry when ANYONE dies in anything.

 

I've cried over characters I've known for two episodes of a television show for Light's sake

[Agitel]

Eh, the deaths of Tonks, Remus and Fred didn't impact me, but that wasn't because I didn't feel for their characters. Rowling completely mishandled their deaths. Deathly Hallows could have benefited from a multi-POV structure, particularly during the chaotic scenes near the end.

 

Just saying, I think it's not an apt comparison.

[David Selig]

 I personally like Elayne's story a lot. But the main reasons I've seen people complain about it over the years are - too slow, too much politics, they don't like Elayne, it's contrived that she isn't using Rand's armies to crush the opposition and that unifying Andor isn't that crucial in the grand scheme of things.

[Rudrah]

Elayne’s Story, in my opinion, is good.

 

The story just takes too long to be delivered. It’s the same with Perrin’s and Egwene’s stories, they took too long to be told. First off, readers have been waiting many years for the book to be released and when the three arcs span so many books the story seems to take forever to be told. My personal favorites are the Rand and Mat arcs. I remember feeling very impatient reading Elayne’s and Egwene’s story as I wanted more Rand and Mat.

 

Now I had to wait over 20 years for the end of this story. Maybe if I could have read the book in one continuous uninterrupted flow I might not have been so impatient and would have appreciated the three other arcs more.

 

If I had to choose my favorite between Perrin, Egwene & Elayne’s story I would choose Perrin’s. The climax was the strongest. (In my opinion)

[mrtumnas]

I'm pretty openly anti-Elayne...for several reasons, although I liked her in Tanchico and before Salidar, her character seems to change a lot after that. It was like RJ realized he had to start making her act like a Queen, without much character development to get there, just an abrupt change in behavior 

First off, I seriously doubt her affections toward Rand. It isn't developed or convincing. They barely know each other, she claimed to love him after a few hours meeting in Caemlyn, and only spent a small amount of time with him in the Stone.  I felt like her obsession with Rand was something she built up in her mind and had very little real substance compared to Avhienda and Min. 
 

Her arc securing the throne is ridiculous in the amount of time it takes, introduces WAY too many minor characters (all the Lords and Houses and stuff), and slows down the series at a time where things should be gearing up for the last battle. I have the same issue with Perrin and Malden, but at least there you have his collaboration with the Seanchan, Elyas returning, Aes Sedai and Wise Ones and Ashaman to keep it interesting.. The fate of one city's ruler, and her political machinations, just isn't interesting anymore when you have Forsaken and Aiel and Seanchan and all kind of crazy stuff going down. For real, we know more about the weird semi rivalry between Mistress Harfor and Master Norry than we do the destruction of Kandor, or whats going on with the Forsaken or Padan Fain. It's all little picture stuff. 

 

 Thats why I like Egwene's arc, because it's big, dramatic, important. The impending civil war between two halves of the white tower, orchestrated by Forsaken, with big implications. And Egwene kicks butt while Elayne complains about goat's milk incessantly. /end rant

[EmperorAllspice]

 And Egwene kicks butt while Elayne complains about goat's milk incessantly. /end rant

Maybe that's why I'm more ok with it. There's not all that many moments where Elayne does awesome things. I never like main characters doing awesome things (personal thing)

[Plato]

I think another reason people don't like Elayne's arc: we already knew exactly where it would end.  Even more so than the others.  We KNOW she will be queen, must we read 20 more chapters of her inspecting the battlements, fretting over pregnancy, drinking goat milk?  Perrin is in the same boat as Elaine in this regard.  We all KNOW how this is going to end, so just get to it already!  At least Egwene had a plot that was moving, with lots of twists and turns and surprises.

[EmperorAllspice]

I guess it depends on if you like the journey more than the destination.

[Rhienne]

I agree that its CoT that put a lot of people off Elayne's story.  And I actually really enjoy her story now that I have reread the series several times.  But the first time I read the series there was a long wait between WH and CoT.  I felt very frustrated that Rand and Nynaeve had just cleansed saidin at the end of WH and we hardly got to see anything to do with them in CoT at all.  I wanted to know what the fall out would be from that particular story - I wanted to see Asha'man, I wanted to see inside Rand's head.  I didn't want to see all the AS in the world noticing that a lot of channeling had been going on and read about Elayne's succession.  It was just the placement and timing.  

 

Now I can read the books all in one go I really enjoy Elayne's story.  I think its well written and I really like Elayne as a character.  Her flaws amuse me rather than irritate me. I just didn't want to read about it when we'd essentially been left with a many year cliff hanger that wasn't fulfilled in CoT.

[Cybertrolloc]

Let's ignore War of the Roses parallels (because then it's talking about ASoIaF and others and this plot line is not going to stack up favorably).

 

Both this plot line and PLoD don't take a lot of time, but they're spread out over books where other full plot lines are happening. (Tellings of the Wheel has it at 3 months for the Succession plotline for example.) What makes Elayne's plot a chore is it's so repetitive: meet with Dyelin and things are hopeful but this needs to happen; whatever thing happens repeat next book until KoD :)

[Mr Ares]

One of the main things I noticed while  looking up stuff about WOT is that people seem really torn on Perrin's, Elayne's and Egwene's arcs.

 

As a result I was really wary when I finally got to it but so far I've been really enjoying it. We have a relatively competent darkfriend antagonist and there's lot of politiking. Maybe I like it more since I went in expecting it to be bad so I was pleasantly surprised.

 

So why is it so often critisized? Is it a length thing? Will it get more annoying now that I'm past book 10?

Part of the problem is dislike of Elayne's character - she's more disliked than Perrin, and at the time of the storyline was probably more hated than Egwene (the Sanderson books seem to have redeemed some of the previously disliked characters such as Faile, but turned more people against Egwene). Many people feel a lack of jeopardy (her rivals for the throne are seen as speed bumps rather than serious opposition). There have been plenty of arguments that Elayne could have simply used Rand's forces to take the throne (although realistically, this would probably make her position untenable in the long term). There's also the notorious bath scene, and a general sense of wheel spinning, both with this plotline and the series as a whole - it's part of a wider problem of things people don't care about that much unfolding quite slowly. I think there are definitely things about the Elayne plot that could have been done better, but there's also a fair bit to appreciate - the threat within is handled better than the threat without, in terms of characters and intrigue, and the pacing isn't the best..

 

The readers care about the main characters + 15-20 secondary characters. The readers want to read about them.

 

Mr Jordan constantly give us new characters (40-60-80 people) but he doesn't give them enough room (everybody needs 8-10 chapters at least to grab our real attention).

 

Ok, the story is going on its way so we need new actors but:

 

If he gives them more space, the Big Five/Six will suffer and vice versa. That's a huge problem for writers.

If a writer needs 8-10 chapters to get a character to grab the readers attention, he's doing something wrong. And RJ has been able to create stories for minor characters who don't even appear in 8 chapters and give them some impact.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Like with Perrin's Shaido plot, the Elayne plot suffers from critical hyperbole. 

 

The main reason is simply that it doesn't have enough explosions. People get bored easily. 

 

My guess is that RJ originally designed the plot to be the more political oriented story to contrast the explosions. 

 

However, he mismanaged it so that the chapters went alongside other slower arcs. 

 

If it had been managed so the plotline was spaced between more exciting other plots, I feel it would be received much better.

 

It is still slow, but far less than people make it out to be. 

 

So I feel it's not entirely the arc itself that is the reason for the hatred but more the combination of several slow arcs. 

[EmperorAllspice]

Like with Perrin's Shaido plot, the Elayne plot suffers from critical hyperbole. 

 

The main reason is simply that it doesn't have enough explosions. People get bored easily. 

 

My guess is that RJ originally designed the plot to be the more political oriented story to contrast the explosions. 

 

However, he mismanaged it so that the chapters went alongside other slower arcs. 

 

If it had been managed so the plotline was spaced between more exciting other plots, I feel it would be received much better.

 

It is still slow, but far less than people make it out to be. 

 

So I feel it's not entirely the arc itself that is the reason for the hatred but more the combination of several slow arcs. 

Butare there many arcs in this story which ARE action oriented?

 

Rand is normally moving from place to place juggling the various political tensions of his various lands or otherwise skulking around with maybe an action scene or two happening now and then.

 

Mat is normally being dragged around by a woman of some kind and is in hiding right now, as well as developing his relationship with Tuon.

 

Perrin is tracking down Faile and trying to find a way to deal with the Prophet.

 

Egwene is dealing with the political issues within the rebel Aes Sedai and getting them ready to EVENTUALLY attack Elaida.

[Barid Bel Medar]

By action I mean explosions. 

 

But I agree, I don't have a problem. 

 

However, there's no deny it slows down by a lot. 

[False Dragon1991]

OP

 

Personally I never felt Elayne was in serious danger or faced with a major challenge or threat. Strange, considering she starts off with no army and her foes lay siege to the city. However, her opponents come across as incompetent, ironically, by the very chapters meant to tell us who they actually are. I also struggle to understand what her arc was about. Shes already a strong and capable leader who has been tutored. She has no real lessons to learn. She is able to ignore all of the hardships or obstacles she has by use of travelling to bring in troops who are loyal to her (dues ex machina) and foodstuffs to resolve the siege. We also see the complete lack of attention to things we have been told should be an issue. Egwene is an Aes Sedai; why does this not cause problems in the streets? The intrigue is very weak because she has no enemies on the city, people rapidly fall in line behind Elayne and her enemies are outside; doing nothing. Theres also this plot about using the borderlanders which goes nowhere. Finally theres the pointless Black Ajah thread where Elayne gets herself captured (AGAIN) and needs to be rescued (AGAIN!). Finally her forces win easily and her rivals surrender. Elayne never puts a foot wrong, even when she does things that should rightly antagonise people, like giving away Andoran land to the Sea Folk and the Cairhenian.

 

The result is that her story is stupid, boring and you are basically just waiting for her to win in the most anti-climatic fashion. This was supposed to prove her as a leader and a master of the game. How? Theres no serious challenge or obstacle for her to overcome and certainly no personal daemons. Such a story does not need to be as long as it does.

 

Also, it is hard to take the situation seriously when Elayne could just single-handedly destroy her opponents with the OP (she even thinks this). But apparently the people are fine with an Aes Sedai queen but object to her using her power to defend them. Obviously.  

[Suttree]

1. Still not sure you are clear on the concept of deus ex.

 

2. It has been explained already why any use of the OP against her own subjects would have been an absolute disaster.

 

3. Why would anyone being AS cause issues in present day Andor. They are about the most open minded society throughout Randland on this topic. Throughout history every daughter-heir is sent to study at the WT.

 

4. Not sure why you are only viewing this through a military perspective. Elayne had to win enough votes from the high seats to become Queen regardless of what she did from a military standpoint. That is how a succession works.

[False Dragon1991]

Her personal relations with the people she interacted with were all far too cordial, most of the high seats just went "shez awesome" and the others she militarily defeated. A few others she just went "Last Battle" and they caved anyway. That is not an interesting political story. Its a mary sue being handed success after success by the plot. How does she get away with manipulating an army into entering Andor (pillaging, looting and ravaging the land for fodder BTW which could kill hundreds and make thousands homeless) and then tells people that she has done this? Does this cause high seats to abandon her and call her a traitor? No. Because this is apparently a "smart" move and we are meant to applaud Elayne for this. To be frank I was often reminded of Cersei in A Feast for Crows and how she thinks she is being awesome and smart when really she is being stupid and grasping; making everything worse by her efforts. Only, in Randland, this sort of thing works...

 

 

I don't see how the people of Caemlyn would view Elayne using her power to break the siege, let food flow into the city again, bring peace and prevent the city being sacked by the rebel army as a bad thing. I wouldn't view that as a bad thing.  

 

There is a difference between being trained and being an actual Aes Sedai loyal to the order and the amyrlin. There is not even a whif of suspicion that she is an Aes Sedai pawn. Even though she has dozens of women who channel in the city with her.