The next books...

[Barid Bel Medar]

Moved to appropriate location. Merged with the appropriate thread. 

[clutzyninja]

There will of course be unpublished works written, just without permission.  THe problem will be that the VAST majority of it will be absolute garbage, and probably filled with sex scenes you don't want to read about

[Patrick Logan]

Personally, I think it is a mistake for BS and Harriet not to consider the Outriggers series. The reason being, while I appreciate BS finishing the series, he did it trying to stay true to RJ's voice and vision. While he put his own stamp on the books, he was constrained by what RJ had already written and the desire to not change things RJ had done even if it served the story better. With the Outriggers, there are no real notes besides what was in the WoT books to go from. While it would not be the same as if RJ had gotten the chance to write it, it also would prevent the need to have a "this is where we need to be and these things need to happen so lets figure out a way to make it happen" feel that came in this last book.

[Suttree]

Personally, I think it is a mistake for BS and Harriet not to consider the Outriggers series. The reason being, while I appreciate BS finishing the series, he did it trying to stay true to RJ's voice and vision. While he put his own stamp on the books, he was constrained by what RJ had already written and the desire to not change things RJ had done even if it served the story better.

 

Brandon created over 50% of the material with no guidance from the notes. Also we know he did change thinsg if it would make the story better:

 

Sanderson made it his "prime directive" to make sure the characters sounded like their old selves. "My second rule was that if Jim said it, the default is to do it as he said, to put it in as he said. And then rule No. 3 is that I can contradict rule No. 2 if it's necessary for the storytelling."

 

By considering these three rules, Sanderson ensured that Rigney's story was told consistently. "I'm continually going back and reading Jim's original notes and his previous books," says the author, "balancing that with looking at what I think he was trying to do, what he said he was trying to do, and what would make the best story. In some cases I trust my instincts as a writer, and in other cases I just say, 'This is what Jim said. We're doing it.' I can't really tell you where I draw the line, when I do one or the other. Oftentimes when the situation comes up, I'll write to Harriet and her assistants and say, 'What do you think?'"

 

Further the notes often looked like this:

 

The thing about the notes is that a lot of the notes were to him, and so he would say things like I'm going to do this or this, and they're polar opposites. And so there are sequences like that, where I decide what we're going to do, and stuff like that. And this all is what became the trilogy that you're now reading.

& lastly on creative control:

 

The nice thing is, being a creative person, there were certain holes. There were things that he, you know....I know where that last chapter is, but there are big gaps along the way, some places where I got to say...I get to do some things I've been looking forward to doing, looking forward to having happen in the Wheel of Time, and that was really a treat to be able to sit down with that outline and say, wow, there's a place here for the thing I've been waiting as a long time as a fan, he doesn't say either way. I can make it happen.

 

And so I got to do a lot of those sequences, and then there are a lot of ones he left instructions on as well, and so my goal has been to...always my default is, if Robert Jordan said it, don't change it. However, that said, you can't do a book like this without being willing to be flexible in your outline. I never wanted...never changed that ending and I never have, but there are things along the way, particularly when he would say, I'm thinking of doing this, or maybe this other thing that's opposite, and sometimes I'll choose between one of those two, and sometimes it's neither one and it has to be a third thing. In a creative process, you really have to be willing to do that; you always have to be willing to toss aside what you were planning to do when something better works for what you're building, so and that has been that process. And after the books are out, I hope to be able to be much more forthcoming about what those things were and show some of the notes, if Harriet will let me, and show how they were adapted. I'm not sure if she will let me. It's really her call. Her argument has been that she doesn't want people's last memory of Robert Jordan to be his unfinished things, which is a really solid argument, and so hopefully she'll let us see some of it, but I can talk more freely about this after the last book's out.

 

When I was handed this project by Harriet [Harriet McDougal, Robert Jordan's wife and editor], she handed it to me as a collaborator, not as

a ghost writer. It's not like building a shelf from Ikea, which is good, because otherwise my creativity wouldn't have been engaged. She handed me full creative control for the first draft, and then we went into the editing phase where we really worked on it to make sure that it fit her vision and Robert Jordan's vision for the series. But going into it, nothing was off-limits. So I wrote them like I write any novel. Nothing is taken for granted, nothing is sacrosanct.

 

[Patrick Logan]

I understand all that...which is why I said "desire not to" instead of "not able". He was still burdened by the idea that this is where we need to get to, these things have to happen...now how do we get there. With the Outriggers, there would be no finish line in place and he could have developed the story all on his own, not half his and half RJ.

 

Please don't get me wrong, I think when BS picked up the books he straightened out some things that seemed to be all over the place. In my reading of the last of the all RJ books, it seemed as if he wasn't sure where he was going with the characters and BS was able to redirect them. I also think BS did a credible job finishing the series. I just got the impression that on many things his hands were tied, albit loosely.

[Rhienne]

I understand all that...which is why I said "desire not to" instead of "not able". He was still burdened by the idea that this is where we need to get to, these things have to happen...now how do we get there. With the Outriggers, there would be no finish line in place and he could have developed the story all on his own, not half his and half RJ.

 

Please don't get me wrong, I think when BS picked up the books he straightened out some things that seemed to be all over the place. In my reading of the last of the all RJ books, it seemed as if he wasn't sure where he was going with the characters and BS was able to redirect them. I also think BS did a credible job finishing the series. I just got the impression that on many things his hands were tied, albit loosely.

It was RJ's express wish that his world not be developed without him.  It was only very shortly before his death that he agreed to allow another author to finish the main series.

[Thrasymachus]

This may be cynical, but I would say to just give it some time.  Eventually, royalties from the book sales will dwindle, the movie and video games don't look like they're going anywhere, and there will be a desire to shake the money tree that is the WoT franchise again.  They may also realize that ruling out new content doesn't mean there won't be new content, there's lots of fanfic out there, and some of it is even decent, it means that Harriet and the Jordan estate abdicate control over the new content, forcing it underground.  WoT fans that want new content will be forced to turn to these underground sources, where there's no control for quality, consistency, or respect for the material.  Jordan's legacy is better protected by leaving the possibility of future content open, and actually publishing that content when they get good stuff.  In the end, I'm not entirely sure that Jordan's wish that "nobody else can play in my sandbox" should be respected for that reason.

[Suttree]

Please don't get me wrong, I think when BS picked up the books he straightened out some things that seemed to be all over the place. In my reading of the last of the all RJ books, it seemed as if he wasn't sure where he was going with the characters and BS was able to redirect them.

I disagree, after KoD RJ had things speeding up and pointing towards the finish. At that point he knew exactly where he was going.

 

I'm also less generous with the work Brandon did on the characters although he handled some very well(Dark Rand and Perrin). All in all the quality in the series suffered enough in ToM and AMoL. I've no desire to see more works in this world where it would most likely suffer even more. Shared world scenarios rarely, if ever work well.

[Thrasymachus]

Shared world scenarios rarely, if ever work well.

 

I think that's really only true when the strengths of a series lie in the characterization and the plot, instead of the world-building.  Jordan's work excels in all 3.  The Star Trek and Star Wars franchises have actually benefited from a shared world, on net.  True, there's some real bombs in those franchises, but for the most part, their extended universes enrich the franchise.  

 

And the very conception of Jordan's world is just begging for an extended universe.  A Wheel of Time divided into 7 Ages forever repeating itself but with variations in each cycle?  I mean, come on.  I can certainly agree with drawing a line around Rand, Mat, Perrin, and the rest of the main cast, and the events important to those characters, and saying, "Nope, this is Jordan's turf, and Sanderson was only allowed to finish what Jordan couldn't."  But as a fan, I would pay for a good novel about Cadsuane's learning to endure what must be endured at the hands of a toothless wilder.  Just think of it!  A wilder, not bound by the 3 Oaths and doomed to die at around 300 years old, old enough to be toothless, and strong enough in the Power to teach Cadsuane patience (along with who knows what else?).  She could have really seen Hawkwing's face!  And I'd pay for a good novel about the events that occurred during the Breaking of the World and the founding of the White Tower, or the rise and fall of Aridhol and Manetheren or of Hawkwing, or the Seanchan Consolidation.

 

And here's the thing, all of those stories will be written, and more, perhaps multiple times over, of varying quality.  They'll be posted on fanfic boards, where I, and many other fans like me, will get to read them for free, where, if Harriet and Tor had decided to publish that very story instead, we would have paid.  That's money they're throwing away there.  And it's not like I'm being all altruistic here, because if Harriet and Tor decide to license an extended universe, then I, and most of those fans like me, won't bother wading through the mountainous piles of crap that accompanies the occasional fanfic gem.  That's almost always worth the price of the book.

[Rhienne]

I think the fact that RJ didn't want fanfiction or anyone else to continue his series/world should be respected.  Everything to do with the WoT is his creation.  I would like to think that TJ would have sufficient integrity to respect his wishes on this matter.

[thom_merrilin]

I think the fact that RJ didn't want fanfiction or anyone else to continue his series/world should be respected.  Everything to do with the WoT is his creation.  I would like to think that TJ would have sufficient integrity to respect his wishes on this matter.

 

Exactly. I have been in from near the beginning of the series and would be gutted if it was split and other authors stepped in and created their own part of the WoT. The series is special to me and to see it crippled and torn apart just for the sake of telling say Tam's story or the full background to Thom and Taringail would be disheartening.

[Rhienne]

 

I think the fact that RJ didn't want fanfiction or anyone else to continue his series/world should be respected.  Everything to do with the WoT is his creation.  I would like to think that TJ would have sufficient integrity to respect his wishes on this matter.

 

Exactly. I have been in from near the beginning of the series and would be gutted if it was split and other authors stepped in and created their own part of the WoT. The series is special to me and to see it crippled and torn apart just for the sake of telling say Tam's story or the full background to Thom and Taringail would be disheartening.

 

There's also the matter that it wouldn't even really be Tam's story, or the story of how Moiraine and Lan came to the Two Rivers, etc., as there's no way anyone would know what RJ had in his mind for these things.

[Ryrin]

I really wanted the story of the 20 years when Lan and Moiraine were searching for Rand.

[Thrasymachus]

With regard to fanfic, should be and will be are two different things.  Fanfiction will happen, regardless of anybody's wishes on the matter.  

[Ryrin]

This may be cynical, but I would say to just give it some time.  Eventually, royalties from the book sales will dwindle, the movie and video games don't look like they're going anywhere, and there will be a desire to shake the money tree that is the WoT franchise again.

I've considered this. There was a lot of hype about the last book, this is it etc. and it likely fueled sales. Give it some time to see what happens. Of course, it may all be wishful thinking.

[Mr Ares]

This may be cynical, but I would say to just give it some time.  Eventually, royalties from the book sales will dwindle, the movie and video games don't look like they're going anywhere, and there will be a desire to shake the money tree that is the WoT franchise again.  They may also realize that ruling out new content doesn't mean there won't be new content, there's lots of fanfic out there, and some of it is even decent, it means that Harriet and the Jordan estate abdicate control over the new content, forcing it underground.  WoT fans that want new content will be forced to turn to these underground sources, where there's no control for quality, consistency, or respect for the material.  Jordan's legacy is better protected by leaving the possibility of future content open, and actually publishing that content when they get good stuff.  In the end, I'm not entirely sure that Jordan's wish that "nobody else can play in my sandbox" should be respected for that reason.

There won't necessarily be a desire to "shake the money tree". Harriet had a successful career of her own. If she doesn't need the money, then she has rather less reason to ignore her late husband's wishes. As for fanfic, yes, it's out there. It always will be. But it's only going to be read by a tiny handful of people compared to the WoT general readership. It exists, but it hardly damages RJ's legacy.

[Julian Cook]

There won't necessarily be a desire to "shake the money tree". Harriet had a successful career of her own. If she doesn't need the money, then she has rather less reason to ignore her late husband's wishes. As for fanfic, yes, it's out there. It always will be. But it's only going to be read by a tiny handful of people compared to the WoT general readership. It exists, but it hardly damages RJ's legacy.

 

This legacy seems a bit dented already, after all the end is, well pants, I can only guess that when Game of Thrones came around that they looked at the wheel of time and passed, we can only hope that if it makes it to the screen someone will edit it, or at least cut 4 if not 5 books out of it and change that silly ending 

[Suttree]

 

There won't necessarily be a desire to "shake the money tree". Harriet had a successful career of her own. If she doesn't need the money, then she has rather less reason to ignore her late husband's wishes. As for fanfic, yes, it's out there. It always will be. But it's only going to be read by a tiny handful of people compared to the WoT general readership. It exists, but it hardly damages RJ's legacy.

 

This legacy seems a bit dented already, after all the end is, well pants, I can only guess that when Game of Thrones came around that they looked at the wheel of time and passed, we can only hope that if it makes it to the screen someone will edit it, or at least cut 4 if not 5 books out of it and change that silly ending 

 

Actually Universal holds the rights and has optioned it. Not much progress made after that point.

[wotfan4472]

I do not want Outriggers either, I like reading the Theories that come up here :D

 

The only problem will be the screen adaptations (if and when they are done) will cause problems.

 

For example, the Forsaken are not well developed to be done outside the written mediums. If a film or t.v series is to be done, I feel that they will be forced to start right back in Age of Legends to tell it well or the general audience will not understand it. This means effectively creating origin stories for every Forsaken to make them the threats we all know they are come out in that medium.

 

After all, as a really good movie critic says "First rule of Film making: Make the best film you can" "Second rule of Film making: If the film looses the studio money, don't do a sequel!"  

 

Also, the problem at the other end is, if the screen projects are successful, we will be right back were we are now with this discussion...........

[Goathill]

I have not read this whole thread. But I have just finish the WoT series and I am more than a little disappointed with the ending. 6 hours after the end of the last battle the story ends everyone knows starting out that good will defeat evil so thats no real surprise. We the readers have been following these characters for a long time I would have liked to know more than they were just alive at the end of the last battle. 

[Mr Ares]

For example, the Forsaken are not well developed to be done outside the written mediums. If a film or t.v series is to be done, I feel that they will be forced to start right back in Age of Legends to tell it well or the general audience will not understand it. This means effectively creating origin stories for every Forsaken to make them the threats we all know they are come out in that medium.

Because TV and film audiences don't understand the concepts of "backstory" and "flashback"? It makes far more sense to start where the series starts, and fill in the necessary background as you go along. The Chosen already have origin stories. Give them a few more scenes to expand on their characters, and maybe make them seem more threatening, people will understand. Game of Thrones was successful and didn't see a need to start the story during the War of the Usurper, or Aegon's Conquest. If anything, they should skip the EotW prologue and start with Rand - LTT and Ishamael can be used a little way down the line, when we have the context to make sense of the scene and it doesn't come across as a random cold open with characters we don't see again.

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I really hope that there are more books in the series. 

 

IMO, the way things ended with Birgitte about to be re-born and her, "Gaidal should only be a few years older than me" comment I immediately said to myself, "Oliver is Gaidal."  I can totally see a book ~25 years in the future where Oliver and Birgitte meet and pursue his vendetta against the Shaido.  Not to mention how many times he said he was gonna go through the doorways.

 

Also, there's the looming Shara threat as well as Mat and Tuon returning to settle Seanchan that could warrant books.

[BFG]

Welcome to the boards Ragamuffin Gunner :)

 

Olver's confirmed not to be Gaidal Cain

 

from Terez's database over in Theoryland...

 

 

COT Signing Report - Tim Kington (Paraphrased)

Question

Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

Robert Jordan

No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

QUESTION

He's too old.

ROBERT JORDAN

Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

 

RJ had planned at least one outrigger following Mat and Tuons efforts to reclaim Seanchan, unfortunately there isn't much of a story outline to go on, so any stories told wouldn't be RJs at all.

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Damn, that would have worked out well, IMO.  It's clear that Oliver has a bright future with his desire to go through the doorways as well as sounding the HoV. There is also clearly the next Birgitte and Gaidal story looming. Learning everything he did from the Band as well as Mat and Noal, plus the doorways/HoV could easily make Oliver the next Gaidal.  It just seems the two stories should intertwine.  It may have been something that RJ didn't anticipate but BS felt fit. 

 

Or I could just be trying to twist things to fit my own ideas, but that doesn't sound very likely!

[BFG]

There's been a lot of speculation over the years, but although time flows differently in TAR and the 'real world', we met Olver while Gaidal was still in TAR, so...