Perrin and the Two Rivers

[DragonSpawn]

For those who read all the books. The way it is seeming, the people's of Two River are getting more and more insistent on making Perrin their regent for Two Rivers to reawaken the dream of Manetheren. Treating Perrin like a prince, repeatedly raising the standard of Manetheren and the Wolf. Never once raising a standard of Andor.

 

Elayne on the other hand has repeatedly stated that she is going to get rid of such allusions and not allow any rebellion. Even in Winters heart not excluding the option of using violence in a stray thought. For some province, where as we learn a royal tax collector hasn't been sighted in over a lifetime and only belongs to Andor in name.

 

 

Seeing that this is the natural course for conflict and war. Who would Rand stand with, his childhood friend and all his old neighbors, friends, and faces he grew up with or the woman he loves?

 

Would he allow Two Rivers to be razed and rent in blood for rebelling, or would he talk sense into Elayne to be content with Cairhien in a trade-off for Two Rivers?

 

Also on a side-note. Doesn't Galad have a better claim to the throne to Cairhien then Elayne? Elayne's claim comes through her father, who is also Galad's father, and he is her elder. He has an army and only believes in justice and law.

Would he go to war with Elayne to sit on his throne in Cairhien? He has an army, the remains of the whitecloaks and is an able commander. And unlike Elayne who is half-Andoran, Galad is completely Cairhienen, wouldn't the people of Cairhien support him over a regent of a country with which they were at war during much of their history?

Would Rand acede the throne of Cairhien to Galad to avoid further turmoil or would he insist on Elayne's claim and restart a whole conflict so close to the Last Battle?

 

Will the matter be solved as easily as Galad gets slain in the last battle, making Elayne the best claiment?

[HotW Moiraine]

For your first point: The people of the Two Rivers want to be a nation, and use it as hope to get through troubled times, there are some problems with this. For one Perrin would die before he would become king (though he probably will), and two there is a big difference between a bunch of villages, and a nation. The chances of the Two Rivers being reconized as a nation by everyone else is very small, but seeing as that TG is coming, it don't really matter does it.

 

 

On a side note:

 

Galad don't want to be King, and even if he did, Andor has a long history of being controlled by queens, and plus Elayne is Aes Sedai trained, which is a big deal in Cairhien. And the last thing Andor or the Humans needs right now is a rebellion in Cairhien.

[Graendals favourite]

In the Two Rivers, I think the least that will happen is that Elayne will make Perrin Lord of the Two Rivers, that would be highly advantageous for her. However, since, as matters stand, she can't control the land, perhaps that is too much to hope for for her. However, she can't just agree to Perrin carving out her land. She will never willingly give her income and trade from the mountains, too. However, Alliandre goes into it too, I think. Perrin has the Two Rivers forces, which are insufficient probably, but then also Ghealdanin forces to call on. I can't see Alliandre simply becoming subordinate to Caemlyn. It goes complicated, probably.

 

I don't know how Perrin will act, but Alliandre and Elayne alike will put the state before friendship, there, even though they'll probably be reasonable. However, I don't think Rand will have a say in this. It won't become necessary before TG, and after that he has no authority in these lands, if he lives. He isn't even the leader of the Black Tower, only King of Illian and Car'a'carn. It will be in the interests of Elayne and Perrin though, Alliandre also, to reach agreement, or there'll be more hands for the picking.

 

 

I think Elayne will have enough on her hands after TG without making the claim for the Cairhienin throne. Even making the claim things would be difficult, there will be all the major Cairhienin houses in the lot, too. If Rand dies, Dobraine could well try to ally with some other houses and try to keep the throne in a similar manner to Darlin in Tear who's king already.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Galad don't want to be King' date=' and even if he did, Andor has a long history of being controlled by queens, and plus Elayne is Aes Sedai trained, which is a big deal in Cairhien. And the last thing Andor or the Humans needs right now is a rebellion in Cairhien.[/quote']

 

Am I just dumb, or did that make no sense to anyone else?

 

Anyhow. I wouldn't be surprised if the Two Rivers eventually are able to claim some legitimate independence from Andor. Elayne should compromise. As has been stated many times, Andor gains nothing from claiming the Two Rivers as part of their nation (tax-wise, or any other benefits that would be sealed off if the Two Rivers became an independent nation). Andor would still have access to the trade goods coming out of that area. Everyone thinks of "Two Rivers tabac", or wool, not "Andoran tabac." It seems to be more of Andor wanting to claim as much territory as the throne can control, and not wanting to relinquish it. Which is understandable. A monarch who acquieses everyime some province wants out is not going to last long. And who knows what will happen between Andor and Cairhien when/if Elayne takes over both thrones. Will they eventually merge into one?

 

Randland is odd, in that currently (though it's mentioned that this was not always the case) there is a LOT of land that is unclaimed by any throne, because they don't have the influence to maintain control of it. A huge stretch of land between Andor and Cairhien and Arad Doman and the Borderlands that belongs to no ruler, and not because it's unfertile or anything. Maybe that just seems weird to me, in that in our world there's not a field or tree that isn't "owned" by someone.

 

Okay... that's kind of a side tangent. The point I was trying to make was that nations have been known to lose parts of their territory because they are unable to impose their authority there, and I could see that happening in the Two Rivers.

 

I don't think Rand would directly intervene to plead their case, for a few reasons. I think his ties there have been cut, at first because he didn't want the Two Rivers to be damaged by association with him, and now I think he has just grown too big for that little area and has more important things to deal with.

 

And this should be all post-TG, anyhow, and who knows if Rand will live. (I think so, but that's beside the point.)

 

Elayne may be stubborn about it, but if she's such a first-rate monarch, as we have been told but have seen no evidence of, she needs to learn to cut her losses.

 

Other people have been talking about Galad's claim to the throne of Cairhien. He obviously has a good one. Whether he would BE a good king, is debatable. Probably all the ladies would be too busy staring to plot against him. In Andor, he is well thought of by the common people at least. But could he deal with the shady and underhanded machinations of the nobility? Can he even comprehend it, GOOD as he is? And is his perfect justice without compromise or mercy an effective way of ruling a country?

 

I don't think Galad will ever put forth a claim to that throne, so it's probably all moot speculation. 8)

[Mat Cauthon]

Okay, here is what I am seeing for the future of Randland post last battle. Assuming there is no geographical breaking of the world and just breaking as in of ties and stuff I see the post Last Battle political boundaries as follows:

 

Illian - current boundaries extended towards Tear in the Plains of Maredo

ruler - Rand

 

Tear - current boundaries extended towards Illian and possibly North

ruler - Darlin

 

Carhien - current boundaries extended North towards Tar Valon

ruler - Elayne

 

Andor - current boundaries minus Two Rivers/ Western portion.

ruler - Elayne

 

Murandy - current boundaries (maybe eaten up by Andor/Tear/Seanchan)

ruler -??????

 

Altara, Amadicia, Tarabon - current boundaries - Northern Altara and + Almoth Plain and Toman Head

ruler - Tuon and Mat

 

Manetheren - current Western Andor (Two Rivers, Baerlon, Mountains of Mist), Northern Altara and Ghealdan)

ruler - Alliandre/Perrin

 

Arad Doman - current boundaries

ruler Rand/Seanchan (depends on KoD)

 

Saldaea - current boundaries

ruler - Faile/Perrin

 

Kandor/Arafel/Shiendar - current boundaries

ruler(s) - current rulers unless they die

 

Malkier - former boundaries

ruler - Lan and Nynaeve

 

 

All of the countries will have a treaty of the nations so that they will keep the peace for at least a little while because currently Rand has ties with Andor, Carhien, Illian, Tear and the Wasteland (Aiel) directly possibly Arad Doman after this book and then through Seanchan agreement which I see happening in this last book he will have ties to Tarabon, Altara and Amadicia. He would also have ties to Saldaea through Perrin and Faile and through Manetheren through them. He also probably will have ties with Malkier and Tar Valon through Nynaeve, Lan and Egwene.

 

So the countries/city-states which are a problem are as follows -

 

Other borderland states (probably will sign treaty with Rand anyways), Murandy (wont cause a problem more than likely), and Far Madding (who knows).

 

So it is VERY likely there will be some sort of treaty before and after hte Last Battle between all of the countries to have peace.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Okay' date=' here is what I am seeing for the future of Randland post last battle. Assuming there is no geographical breaking of the world and just breaking as in of ties and stuff I see the post Last Battle political boundaries as follows:[/quote']

 

Most of that makes sense, although... if Rand survives (again, I personally think he will, but that may be just because I WANT him to and not based on any actual proof) I don't see him 1) being a ruler of any nation; nor 2) being a King over one country while one of his wives is Queen over two other countries elsewhere. I just think the conflict of interests would be too much and/or it would be redundant. But, then, I see Andor and Cairhien staying as two seperate countries being ruled by one person as being redundant as well.

 

I doubt Perrin, if left to his own devices, would ever choose to be ruler of anything. But if Faile survives TG ( :( ) I'm sure she will have him ruling as much as she possibly can. But I don't see Perrin/Faile ruling Two Rivers/Manethern/that region and Saldaea. Bad enough for Elayne to rule two seperate countries adjacent to each other, but to rule two different countries almost half a continent away? I don't see how that would really work.

 

It will be interesting to see if Malkier will be reclaimed. I suppose it would be all "Mega Happy Ending" if it was, but I wouldn't be weeping at the end of the series if it never was.

 

Probably some sort of peace treatise/alliance will be passed around after TG.

 

I would like to see Rand assume a role more centered around the One Power/Aes Sedai then as a King. Being a ruler obviously doesn't make him happy. He should instead work on the unification of Aes Sedai/Asha'man and setting up centers for research and education with the One Power (and just general research).

 

My $0.02 -- I hadn't really thought about this much before this thread. Interesting... I wonder if we will ever find out. How much of an epilogue will RJ give us? I am ever so fond of a thorough and happifying epilogue. I could read an entire BOOK of epilogue. :D

[Mat Cauthon]

Yeah, we have only had really short Epilogues when we have had them and we have had mainly mega long prologues (usually 75-100 pages). I hope we have a long Epilogue/Declining Action so we can see how everything falls together at the end.

 

I think they will reclaim Malkier because it seems a big part of the story with Lan and Nynaeve and I think it will happen with the Blight not being as much of a threat than it is currently.

 

To the other things. Yeah, I was thinking the same about Rand/Elayne and Perrin/Faile.

 

Rand would probably give Illian back to its former king and Rand would rule with Elayne (under her of course). I was thinking maybe they need to build a new capital city in between Andor and Carhien because the city and Caemlyn are way too far apart. Andor is also way to East-West which is one reason why it is so hard for them to have taxed the Two Rivers. It might be the same area as other countries but it being elongated makes the distances a lot longer (wouldve been smarter to have Whitebridge area as capital instead of far east).

 

For Perrin and faile I was thinking maybe they would have an Asha'man who would get them to Travel between them if it happened, but Alliandre would probably take over if she lives, but the problem is I don't really see the Two Rivers folk listening to her much (as they would Perrin). I also really see Faile eventually getting Saldaea because she is one of the next in line and I dont think that is just coincedential.

[Tithen]

I don't think Galad will ever make a claim to the Cairhienin throne. Since he always does the right thing, he would accept Elayne's claim instead of opposing his own sister.

 

As for the Rand/Elayne ruling situiation, I have my doubts. My guess is they won't be married. Polygamy might be accepted in the Waste, but in Andor it's illegal, so it would be difficult for the queen of Andor to have a polygamic marriage...

 

But i agree with Rand not ruling any countries post TG. He just isn't the ruling type. He may have been forced to rule now, but it's not the life he really wants.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You know ... after the Breaking, all the nations of the world had changed.

 

After the Trolloc Wars, all the nations of the world had changed.

 

After the War of the Hundred Years, all the nations of the world had changed.

 

Why does everyone seem to think that the nations are going to make it through Tarmon Gai'don intact? Its the end of an Age. I bet the new world looks completely different.

[Mat is the Boss]

Robert is right, first we have to see what survives Tarmon Gaidon. I expect that a number of rulers, and at least a couple of major cities will be gone by the end of the Last Battle.

The only rulers we can be certain survive is Mat and Tuon,(according to RJ) and Darlin and his wife (Min`s viewing)

[Thorum]

Why wouldn't Perrin be able to rule the Two Rivers ánd Saldaea??? The only thing that's in between is a bunch of unclaimed land (and Baerlon).

 

I've just measured on the maps on the books: the distance Emond's Field - Maradon is about the same as Baerlon - Caemlyn, which already both are in the same country. Give Northern Altara and Ghealdan (is hers already) to Alliandre to rule and it certainly isn't impossible.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why wouldn't Perrin be able to rule the Two Rivers ánd Saldaea??? The only thing that's in between is a bunch of unclaimed land (and Baerlon).

I've just measured on the maps on the books: the distance Emond's Field - Maradon is about the same as Baerlon - Caemlyn, which already both are in the same country. Give Northern Altara and Ghealdan (is hers already) to Alliandre to rule and it certainly isn't impossible.

 

Answer? He could.

[DragonSpawn]

I don't think Galad will ever make a claim to the Cairhienin throne. Since he always does the right thing' date=' he would accept Elayne's claim instead of opposing his own sister.

 

As for the Rand/Elayne ruling situiation, I have my doubts. My guess is they won't be married. Polygamy might be accepted in the Waste, but in Andor it's illegal, so it would be difficult for the queen of Andor to have a polygamic marriage...

 

But i agree with Rand not ruling any countries post TG. He just isn't the ruling type. He may have been forced to rule now, but it's not the life he really wants.[/quote']

 

Exactly because it is the "right" thing to do, Galad would put forth a claim. How could someone so caught up in justice and the just cause just close his eye to the usurping of a birthright.

I however have a feeling, after TG, Galad will be a ruler of some nation be it Cairhien, or Amadicia, or a collection of territories in which he restores order with his whitecloaks.

[vegetattack15]

I see Rand walking off into the sunset with Min after TG, with everybody thinking he's dead(Except, maybe Avi and Elayne). What about Ruidean? I see Ruidean as the new big Capitol of Randland post TG. Also Elayne has enough on her shoulders now and for a very long time to come for her to worry about some backwoods farmers raising a long forgotten flag. Which in all reality, Menatheran would probably be one of her strongest allies anyway, so in the end it would benefit Andor to lose a little land and gain a very strong nation to trade with and to call in for extra support come TG.

[icspots]

And unlike Elayne who is half-Andoran, Galad is completely Cairhienen, wouldn't the people of Cairhien support him over a regent of a country with which they were at war during much of their history?

 

Ummmmmm, Elayne and Galad are both half Cairhienen. Galad's parents were Tigraine and Taringail. Tigraine was daughter to queen Mordrellen, and the daughter heir of Andor at the time, and Taringail was nephew to Laman Damodred. After Tigraine ran away and Mordrellen died Morgase won the Succession and married Taringail because he'd been married to the previous Daughter Heir. Taringail was assassinated when he began plotting to replace Morgase and become King of Andor.

 

So while you're correct that Galad has a claim to the throne through his being older, you're incorrect that he's more Caihrienen than Elayne. Also I believe Tigraine married Taringail as part of a peace between the two countries, so that should've ended the wars between them for the most part. At least until Cairhien has a civil war, and Rahvin takes over Andor that is. ;)

 

Beyond that I don't believe that Galad would jump in against Elayne in a claim for the Sun Throne. They make mention several times throughout the books of how Galad and Gawyn have been raised to protect and help Elayne. Also she mentions in a POV thought how Galad could have disposed of Gawyn and stayed the First Prince of the Sword but instead embraced his half siblings as full ones. I don't think Galad really has any aspirations of power... I mean he was thrust into his new position of Lord Captain Commander, and it seems likely that he'll end up marrying Berelain, so then he'd most likely be in Mayene. Maybe anyway. :D

[TheDiceAgain...]

And besides, if he survives, Galad is going to be very busy being the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks and the First-Consort (or whatever you'd call First's spouse) of Mayene. That is, of course, unless you can find me another "man in white" for Berelain to fall in love with?

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

No, we don't know what will happen after TG. I think new countries will rise up, but I don't think that ALL of the current ones will fall. Borders will certainly change, but maybe more to Rand's edict than anything actually caused by TG. Yeah, there may be physical "breaking" of the world to some extent. You gotta wonder if the Waste will remain a barren desert. I think that Mat and Tuon will come to rule the SW part of the continent, what the Seanchan has already "claimed."

 

But we can't speculate on new unheard of countries. We can only speculate on what we have now.

 

I don't think Faile and Perrin will take over the throne of Saldaea because 1) if you stretched the southernmost border of Saldaea down to the Two Rivers (or even further, if you're talking about merging Altara and Ghealdan) and march it along the Mountains of Mist all the way to the Blight Border (which itself may get moved back or disappear entirely), and you would have yourself easily the largest country in Randland, and we know the difficulty the thrones are having holding on to big chunks of land; 2) The capital of Saldaea, Maradon, is all the way up by the Blight border, not at the southernmost border... it would be like having a capital in Ebou Dar and commuting to Caemlyn to rule there as well; 3) Why usurp Tenobia? Maybe she'll die in TG... maybe Faile or Perrin will die. But going on the presumption that they will live, I don't see why we all make the assumption that Faile will somehow come to the throne. Just because she is a cousin and possibly next in line (I don't know if that's the case, trying to see where it says that). Tenobia's young. She'll probably get married and have kids if she survives.

 

re: Galad, his "always does the right thing" doesn't mean that he's obligated to make a claim to the throne because he has a better one than Elayne. If that were the case he would already have come forward and done so.

 

Tithen, you're right about Rand and his harem. I don't think he will actually marry them all (except possibly in a way acknowledged by the Aiel?). No other country would accept such a union--who can blame them? Will he still end up with all 3, or will one or more die in TG, or will he "wander into the sunset" with just 1 (if so, I think we could rule out Elayne)? I guess any one of those options is just guessing and hoping at this point, because we don't have any hints...

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

And besides' date=' if he survives, Galad is going to be very busy being the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks and the First-Consort (or whatever you'd call First's spouse) of Mayene. That is, of course, unless you can find me another "man in white" for Berelain to fall in love with?[/quote']

 

I agree. That does seem to be the best theory for Min's viewing.

 

Although, the state of Mayene has to change dramatically post-TG.

[Thorum]

I don't think Faile and Perrin will take over the throne of Saldaea because 1) if you stretched the southernmost border of Saldaea down to the Two Rivers (or even further, if you're talking about merging Altara and Ghealdan) and march it along the Mountains of Mist all the way to the Blight Border (which itself may get moved back or disappear entirely), and you would have yourself easily the largest country in Randland, and we know the difficulty the thrones are having holding on to big chunks of land;

 

I've remeasured it. The distance Cairhien - Baerlon is LONGER than Maradon - Emonds Field.

 

2) The capital of Saldaea, Maradon, is all the way up by the Blight border, not at the southernmost border... it would be like having a capital in Ebou Dar and commuting to Caemlyn to rule there as well;

 

Same answer as above. If it's possible in Andor, why not in Saldeae-TwoRivers???

 

3) Why usurp Tenobia? Maybe she'll die in TG... maybe Faile or Perrin will die. But going on the presumption that they will live, I don't see why we all make the assumption that Faile will somehow come to the throne. Just because she is a cousin and possibly next in line (I don't know if that's the case, trying to see where it says that). Tenobia's young. She'll probably get married and have kids if she survives.

 

I believe she will die and at least one of Faile or Perrin will survive. Why make such an elaborate treat about Faile being one of the closest relatives (I think that's all we know of the exact relationship) of a queen for if not for that? But that, ofcourse, is my opinion and you don't have to agree with it.

 

 

The second problem is Cairhien - Andor.

 

I agree that Andor is about the largest chunk of earth possible to govern. So there has to become an other solution for Cairhien.

To make it clear I'll give some facts:

1) Cairhien hasn't got a good army any more (civil war for 20 years and a huge "international" war even before that) [is this correct???]

2) The Whitecloaks have lost their country to the Seanchan

3) The current Captain-General of the Whitecloaks can put foreward very good claims to the throne of Cairhien.

So: I believe Galad will get Cairhien.

[Mat Cauthon]

Faile is 3rd in line to the throne of Saldaea. It goes Tenobia, Bashere, Faile. I just really see her getting it because I thought MIn or something had a viewing with her and the Broken Throne/Crown (forgot which) which is ruling Saldaea.

[Guest Wynne Jessal]

Faile is 3rd in line to the throne of Saldaea. It goes Tenobia' date=' Bashere, Faile. I just really see her getting it because I thought MIn or something had a viewing with her and the Broken Throne/Crown (forgot which) which is ruling Saldaea.[/quote']

 

You're exactly right. I was actually just reading more about it, and I have to admit that I forgot about Min's viewing. So. Even though I don't like it, there is a possibility that Min's 'broken crown' viewing could be a reference to the crown coming to Faile and him. Or it could just be an association like the falcon=Faile/broken crown=Saldaea/Bashere relationship.

[The Dalai Lamo]

Didn't Perrin promise to bury his Manetherish (thingy) flag when he was dealing with the Seanchan to get the forkroot? Can't they just leave the poor bugger alone.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yes, whatever emerges from the Two Rivers, it won't be Manetheren.

 

Perrin (as Faile's husband) is indeed the most likely heir to the Saldaean crown, given Davram Bashere's age. For comparison, Min saw Rand with a Laurel Crown, and he really ended up as King of Illian.

 

As for Andor and Cairhien, I figure that as compensation for not going after Perrin and the Two Rivers, Rand gives Elayne a nice new country formed from Eastern Andor and Cairhien. Since Egwene is smart enough to take some territory for the White Tower, that would make them neighbors.

[DocBean]

And besides' date=' if he survives, Galad is going to be very busy being the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks and the First-Consort (or whatever you'd call First's spouse) of Mayene. That is, of course, unless you can find me another "man in white" for Berelain to fall in love with?[/quote']

 

Hit the nail on the head on this one. I love the idea of Galad taking control of Cairhein, I can't really see one person (Elayne) in control of that much land, it just is too much to take on, too many cities and towns and too many people looking out for themselves. However, we know Galad will end up with Berelain (which makes perfect since, the hottest guy and hottest girl in all of Randland - kind of like Brad and Angelina) so maybe they will Rule Cairhein and Mayene. I'll need to look at the map again to see if that's possible. We know Berelain is a very compatant leader to keep such a small country intact, why not give her more control thru marriage?

[HoppyQ]

What about Logain? Remember Min also saw him with a crown on his head. I think either Rand ends up giving him Illian or he marries Tenobia and becomes a border king.