13 x 13 Turning

[Barid Bel Medar]

Anything and everything about the process, what it does, how it happens, what will happen now the DO is Sealed? Will they seek to open the bore? Can it be reversed? 

 

Discuss. 

[Gangorn]

It would make sense for their to be a balance to a forced turning. Maybe a circle of 13 would be able to reverse he process?

[Daruya]

My question was more along the lines of what happened to their souls?  Was it that their souls were killed or ejected leaving only a shell and memories?  I can't believe their souls were forever "damned" because they had no choice in their "conversion."  

 

Removing that choice was like that vision of Rand's future that he had originally thought would be utopian but he realized later how evil it was because it did remove choice.  

 

As for turning them back, would a circle of 13 be enough?  It took 13 dreadlords and 13 myrdraal to turn each channeler.  And if their souls were killed/ejected, then there may be nothing left to turn back.

[Knivy]

I believe there is already a way known to exist, if not in detail, to reverse this process.  The 13x13 process is known to Aes Sedai, and they have the saying that no one is too far to the shadow to return to the light or something.  The whole oath against lying and such.

[Suttree]

There is no hint in the books that there is a currently known process to reverse the procedure. In fact the way it is discussed seem to be the opposite and it isn't necesarily widespread knowledge. We have a quote from RJ though that says:

 

 

 

Interview: Jul 19th, 2005                                                           

TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)                                                 

Week 15 Question                                                                  

When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

                                                                                       

Robert Jordan                                           
                                            

They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is usefuleven to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

So it does seem possible.

[Knivy]

If it is mentioned to two girls, not even novices yet (I think i have the timing correct), then AS should know it. 

[Suttree]

If it is mentioned to two girls, not even novices yet (I think i have the timing correct), then AS should know it. 

Actually, it's the very conversation in which a BA member mentions it to Egwene testing for Accepted that tells us it isn't widespread knowledge.

 

TDR Ch.22

 

"He said they could turn him to the Shadow," Egwene mumbled. "He said the Myrddraal and the Dreadlords could force him."

   Sheriam missed a step, and looked around quickly. Elaida was almost back to the table. The Aes Sedai surrounding the ter'angreal stared at it, seeming lost to anything else. "An unpleasant thing to talk of, child," Sheriam said finally, and softly. "Come. One more."

   "Can they?" Egwene insisted.

   "Custom," Sheriam said, "is not to speak of what happens within the ter'angreal. A woman's fears are her own."

   "Can they?"

   Sheriam sighed, glanced at the other Aes Sedai again, then dropped her voice to a whisper and spoke swiftly. "This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever, but I will tell you.

[Knivy]

Oh, i thought it was during the boat trip to the tower, I stand corrected.

[Semirhagesbane]

This strikes me as part of the larger question. We've seen some examples of 'unhealable' ailments (stilling, gentling, rands wounds, taint-induced madness) suddenly being healed throughout the book. Several of these were unhealable even in the AOL. In addition to this, we find countless lost Talents reappearing and even a few new ones among the channelers of the world. My opinion is that this is the work of the pattern. I think suddenly flooding the world with new talents and discoveries was the pattern's way of preparing the forces of the Light for the last battle (to even the playing grounds a bit).

Now the relevant part. Will turning be cured? I think that depends on how the pattern works. For example, if it set up tools (Nyneave for example) to go out in the world and start making discoveries, then it is possible one of these tools will find a cure. However, if the discoveries themselves are willed by the pattern, then I don't really see any reason why a cure for turning would bring balance in any way. 

[mbuehner]

I suspect it could be done, but not as a magic bullet kinda way, more as a long term healing process like treating PTSD.

[esvath]

It might requires intense mental treatment, and the best of mental healer in the future Age is Semirhage reborn :P

[Byzantine279]

The way that RJ states it indicates that it might be possible to bring them back to the light with help, given that he specifies "unaided."

[wRAR]

 

There is no hint in the books that there is a currently known process to reverse the procedure. In fact the way it is discussed seem to be the opposite and it isn't necesarily widespread knowledge. We have a quote from RJ though that says:

 

 

 

Interview: Jul 19th, 2005                                                           

TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)                                                 

Week 15 Question                                                                  

When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

                                                                                       

Robert Jordan                                           

                                            

They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is usefuleven to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

So it does seem possible.

And because of this quote I believe that "he is dead and something else occupied his body" is wrong.

[SueDeNym]

I ultimately had to vote yes because I refuse to believe that in a series where choices are so important that the most fundamental of choices to choose to serve good or evil would be taken completely out of a person's hands.

 

Do I think it is possible to "unturn" someone who has been 13x13?  Yes,

Will it come about easily?  No.  I think that like any kind of severe psychological trauma, there will never be complete healing, but I think that it will be possible to overturn the original turning.  To think that any human being is powerless to choose would be tragic.

[Snowdog1]

Nyneave did what all the Aes Sedai thought was impossible by fixing stilled/gentiled people.  So I can't see why anything is impossible in that world.

[Mats Spare Hat]

The way things panned out, it'd probably work like some sort of anti-turning hijinks, like balefire and the mysteriously makes you hurl a little in your mouth 'flame of tar valon' crapshow.

For instance, need 13 dreadlords/black ajah/asha'man & 13 myrddraal to turn someone to the dark side?

Bam, 13 aes sedai/wise ones/whoever & 13 I don't know...kittens, sure, who doesn't like kittens, to turn you all fuzzy inside.

[fionwe1987]

Definitely possible. That's the whole point of Egwene's last scene, right? Two sides to every coin, and equal and opposite to everything, to ensure balance. I think the turnings can be reversed, though it may be incredibly complex, and just as hard to do as the Turnings themselves.

[Lord D]

The way things panned out, it'd probably work like some sort of anti-turning hijinks, like balefire and the mysteriously makes you hurl a little in your mouth 'flame of tar valon' crapshow.

 

For instance, need 13 dreadlords/black ajah/asha'man & 13 myrddraal to turn someone to the dark side?

 

Bam, 13 aes sedai/wise ones/whoever & 13 I don't know...kittens, sure, who doesn't like kittens, to turn you all fuzzy inside.

Maybe 13 Tree-Men are needed, by which I mean the Nym we saw in tEotW, and not the Ogier.  Or maybe just 13 Ogier.  Experimentation will be needed.

[JakeBarnes]

I think that it will not be 'Healed', but that placing the Dreadlords in the Stedding is a good way to bring some peace to the ones who were Turned. With the bore sealed and not being able to touch the Source, I see this as something close to how Bilbo went to live with the Elves when he gave up the Ring. Probably not the best comparison, but there it is.

[Edsel]

Nyneave did what all the Aes Sedai thought was impossible by fixing stilled/gentiled people.  So I can't see why anything is impossible in that world.

Nynaeve also healed compulsion, but it left the person a mindless idiot and they died.  She's my favorite, but don't know if all things can be healed.  However, I would think it would be worth trying, because even if it went awry, their souls are lost anyway... so Nyn would have disappointment, but not guilt, if you know what I mean.  Plus, if they immediately died, but died in the Light, at least they could be reborn in the Light.  So either way, it's worth the try, and I'm SURE Nyn will try it.

[OneWhoMustBeLeashed]

 

There is no hint in the books that there is a currently known process to reverse the procedure. In fact the way it is discussed seem to be the opposite and it isn't necesarily widespread knowledge. We have a quote from RJ though that says:

 

 

 

Interview: Jul 19th, 2005                                                           

TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)                                                 

Week 15 Question                                                                  

When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

                                                                                       

Robert Jordan                                           

                                            

They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is usefuleven to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

So it does seem possible.

 

 

The quote implies that it is possible, but very unlikely, that a Turned person could come back to the light on his or her own. It is apparently easier for a Turned person to come back to the Light if he is aided. Otherwise, the word (bolded) word unaided is totally meaningless in the quote. So, yes, it is possible to save a Turned person. 

[Lisa Campbell]

I think from what Lanfear told Perrin at the end that they can be turned back and that he will eventually tell someone (probably Nynaeve) about it. Of course she's going to try - it's in her make up.

 

I suspect it will take a circle and the Ogier to do it, based on the fact that some are being held by the Ogier in a stedding (foreshadowing). The problem is that as soon as they are taken out of the Stedding they could overpower their captors and escape before the job is done.

 

I also think that Logain may be key to the revelation. He is worried that something in him is broken from his attempted turning and knows that Nynaeve is the most accomplished healer at present. He might enlist her aid, especially when she gets around to healing his (and the rest of the affilicted Ashaman's) madness which I imagine would be her next miission in life. Or she will likely discover it while in the process.

[Alexandros]

 

 

 

Nyneave did what all the Aes Sedai thought was impossible by fixing stilled/gentiled people.  So I can't see why anything is impossible in that world.

Nynaeve also healed compulsion, but it left the person a mindless idiot and they died.  She's my favorite, but don't know if all things can be healed.  However, I would think it would be worth trying, because even if it went awry, their souls are lost anyway... so Nyn would have disappointment, but not guilt, if you know what I mean.  Plus, if they immediately died, but died in the Light, at least they could be reborn in the Light.  So either way, it's worth the try, and I'm SURE Nyn will try it.

 

 

 

Did the books refer to what Nynaeve did as healing? I think she just undid the compulsion, which is different to actually healing. Kind of like killing a virus but not being able to do anything to damage already done.

 

It might be possible to eventually heal the damage done by compulsion, I seem to recall in the BWB a reference to "Restorers" fixing the damage Semirhage's tortures did to rescued victims.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I think the problem was that the person she had removed the compulsion from was under such heavy compulsion that undoing it undid his mind, leaving him a vegetable.

[Suttree]

Did the books refer to what Nynaeve did as healing? I think she just undid the compulsion, which is different to actually healing.

That is correct, it was not healing.