Who *are* you, Nakomi? (Full spoilers)

[clu7ch]

I don't get how so many people are confused about the all caps voice. It's only seen a few times in the series. 

 

It's the dark one.

 

It gets confusing - because rand also 'talks' like that while outside the pattern, but - it's just the dark one.

 

RJ's quotes collaborate and reinforce that. 

Edited April 6, 2013 by clu7ch

[Kahsm]

 

 

Meh. You really are dancing around a number of things to make it fit. Would be an interesting question for Brandon at some point.

 

Honestly, I have seen much worse dancing around in these forums with ideas that seem to be taken seriously.. Where words and quotes are really picked apart to its smallest threads to try to get ideas across. Especially so when it comes to the prophecy-discussions..

You linked a quote where Jordan say the Creator is completly off the chart as far as influencing events goes. I linked one where it was hinted that maybe the Creator is not completly abascent. Then you link a few qoutes about how the Creator will not help Randland win the Last Battle in an attempt by RJ to show that he wont just be using the Creator as a sudden "solve every problem"-thing. I dont see how that is dancing around to make things fit.

 

 

I think he got you there Suttree ;)

 

Wouldn't it be funny if the Ceator were just wandering around checking things out and HAPPENED to bump into Ahvi. And he really doesn't care about the Aiel per say, he was just shooting the shit in the way "The Creator" would. Hilarious. Don't buy it, but hilarious.

[Arran]

I don't get how so many people are confused about the all caps voice. It's only seen a few times in the series. 

 

It's the dark one.

 

It gets confusing - because rand also 'talks' like that while outside the pattern, but - it's just the dark one.

 

RJ's quotes collaborate and reinforce that. 

I don't believe it is the Dark One. In AMOL, the voice speaks before Rand goes into Shayol Ghul, so why would he be surprised that Rand is there when he enters the cave? Although I wouldn't mind seeing these quotes that you speak of :)

[wotfan4472]

Perhaps she is the Caretaker only? If the Light's Champion is always male, then wouldn't it be logical that the Caretaker is always female?

 

Or the vote I made of Nakomi being of the Jenn. It would certainly fit Nakomi being of the Jenn Aiel, since they are pretty much Da 'shain Aiel heirs in the Third Age, or why survive the Breaking to just build Rhuidian and plant the Tree of Life? Always felt there was a bigger purpose to the Jenn than this, even more than the glass columns, important though they are. Nakomi may just be that purpose: to birth a Caretaker.

Edited April 17, 2013 by wotfan4472

[jedman67]

He did say "scene exiting the mountain". And as it is written, the old Aiel woman is not called Nakomi, and can barely be called a character. If he added her to the Aviendha scene, then he's the one who wrote her as a character, gave her a name, and worked in the small clues to who she is, so that her appearance again at the end is not a total surprise.

 

That seems to make sense, to me.

 

i sorta skimmed through that scene, might need to do a selective re-read (i cant reread the whole book now)

1. We know avihenda was fighting with graendal (who looks like an old ugly woman)

2. Aviehanda accidentally Compelled Granny when she broke her gateway (avi could barely channel a spark, she was so exhausted at that point)

3. Her fight with Granny ended just before Rand exited Shayol Gul.

 

My conclusion? The old Aiel woman is Granny in disguise (forced by Avi to look like an Aiel using the spy-mask weaves).

(Either that or she's the spirit of Margeret Thatcher   )

[jedman67]

Perhaps she is the Caretaker only? If the Light's Champion is always male, then wouldn't it be logical that the Caretaker is always female?

 

Or the vote I made of Nakomi being of the Jenn. It would certainly fit Nakomi being of the Jenn Aiel, since they are pretty much Da 'shain Aiel heirs in the Third Age, or why survive the Breaking to just build Rhuidian and plant the Tree of Life? Always felt there was a bigger purpose to the Jenn than this, even more than the glass columns, important though they are. Nakomi may just be that purpose: to birth a Caretaker.

WTH is a Caretaker?

I believe the Jenn all died out; perhaps there are a handful remaining mixed among the modern aiel, but i think thats a far stretch.

[emozilla]

From a conversation I had with Brandon at JordanCon today:

 

Me: At the end of AMoL, that is Nakomi right?

Brandon: Well it certainly sounds like her.

Me (later): Why is the Creator so absent from the series while the Dark One has such a direct presence?

Brandon: Well, we don't think or realize we see him. Robert Jordan was very clear in his notes ... that the Creator wanted to give mankind the tools to help themselves.

 

Take it as you will, but Brandon saying "we don't think we see him" makes me believe the Creator appears innocuously -- and Naomi is certainly a good candidate.

[jedman67]

From a conversation I had with Brandon at JordanCon today:

 

Me (later): Why is the Creator so absent from the series while the Dark One has such a direct presence?

Brandon: Well, we don't think or realize we see him. Robert Jordan was very clear in his notes ... that the Creator wanted to give mankind the tools to help themselves.

i would suggest that the three Ta'veren  - who basically united the civilized world against the forces of Shadow, between them - and some of the special abilities granted to Rand towards the end, as well as the Pattern 'encouraging' things to move in the right direction, are all examples of the creator acting behind the scenes to help mankind. Twice you hear the creators voice - once, in the beginning at the Eye of the World, and second, when Rand enters Shayol Gul. 

[Suttree]

1. We don't know that was the Creator's voice.

 

2. RJ was very clear(a number of times) that the Creator takes no part to help mankind.

Edited April 22, 2013 by Suttree

[shortkut]

It wasn't the dark ones voice.

[Suttree]

It wasn't the dark ones voice.

Do we have a quote on that that I'm unaware of? 

[Arran]

 

It wasn't the dark ones voice.

Do we have a quote on that that I'm unaware of? 

 

 

I don't think it is, either. The Dark One is surprised by Rand's appearance due to the ter'angreal he was carrying. And this is AFTER the voice says "IT IS TIME. LET THE TASK BE UNDERTAKEN." I'd just find it a little odd if he was surprised even though he'd just spoken to Rand directly.

[Suttree]

It's just something that has been hotly debated in the fandom for years. Was wondering if we got any clarification?

[shortkut]

I should have clarified: the SECOND time we hear it is not the dark one unless the dark one has a severe case of dementia

[jedman67]

2. RJ was very clear(a number of times) that the Creator takes no part to help mankind.

directly.

Announcing to the world that the last battle has begun and the Light's Champion needs to begin his task is not 'helping' per se, its allowing his Ineffable Plan to take place as designed.

I always saw it as the creator helps those who help themselves; indirectly, through normal mundane means or happenstance, but he's there, albeit passively. 

[mbuehner]

I should have clarified: the SECOND time we hear it is not the dark one unless the dark one has a severe case of dementia

 

Mmm, I think you could read it that the DO was essentially calling Rand out (not necessarily knowing he was SO close) and Rand pops right up a few moments later.  He was on a time frame, after all, with his eclipse and all.  The way the voice was described and its effect on the 3 seemed Dark to me.

[BFG]

 

I should have clarified: the SECOND time we hear it is not the dark one unless the dark one has a severe case of dementia

 

Mmm, I think you could read it that the DO was essentially calling Rand out (not necessarily knowing he was SO close) and Rand pops right up a few moments later.  He was on a time frame, after all, with his eclipse and all.  The way the voice was described and its effect on the 3 seemed Dark to me.

 

 

But could the Dark One speak to Rand if he didn't know where he was? 

[mbuehner]

 

 

I should have clarified: the SECOND time we hear it is not the dark one unless the dark one has a severe case of dementia

 

Mmm, I think you could read it that the DO was essentially calling Rand out (not necessarily knowing he was SO close) and Rand pops right up a few moments later.  He was on a time frame, after all, with his eclipse and all.  The way the voice was described and its effect on the 3 seemed Dark to me.

 

 

But could the Dark One speak to Rand if he didn't know where he was? 

 

 

In Shayol Ghul? Perhaps.

 

PS- I dont know if I buy it, but i like it better than the Creator making a 'Let's Get Ready to Rumble' flyby.

Edited April 23, 2013 by mbuehner

[BFG]

 

 

 

I should have clarified: the SECOND time we hear it is not the dark one unless the dark one has a severe case of dementia

 

Mmm, I think you could read it that the DO was essentially calling Rand out (not necessarily knowing he was SO close) and Rand pops right up a few moments later.  He was on a time frame, after all, with his eclipse and all.  The way the voice was described and its effect on the 3 seemed Dark to me.

 

 

But could the Dark One speak to Rand if he didn't know where he was? 

 

 

In Shayol Ghul? Perhaps.

 

PS- I dont know if I buy it, but i like it better than the Creator making a 'Let's Get Ready to Rumble' flyby.

 

 

Fair enough, I'm happy to agree to a negative for both the Creator and DO, but I can't think of any other reasonable alternative.  The in book evidence against the DO for me outweighs the author quote from RJ, but if anyone could come up with a credible alternative I'd jump at it.  I guess the simplest explanation would be that the dagger didn't work, so the DO could find Rand...

[mbuehner]

 

 

 

 

I should have clarified: the SECOND time we hear it is not the dark one unless the dark one has a severe case of dementia

 

Mmm, I think you could read it that the DO was essentially calling Rand out (not necessarily knowing he was SO close) and Rand pops right up a few moments later.  He was on a time frame, after all, with his eclipse and all.  The way the voice was described and its effect on the 3 seemed Dark to me.

 

 

But could the Dark One speak to Rand if he didn't know where he was? 

 

 

In Shayol Ghul? Perhaps.

 

PS- I dont know if I buy it, but i like it better than the Creator making a 'Let's Get Ready to Rumble' flyby.

 

 

Fair enough, I'm happy to agree to a negative for both the Creator and DO, but I can't think of any other reasonable alternative.  The in book evidence against the DO for me outweighs the author quote from RJ, but if anyone could come up with a credible alternative I'd jump at it.  I guess the simplest explanation would be that the dagger didn't work, so the DO could find Rand...

 

 

I dont think the fact that Rand could hear him means that the DO found him. If I yell to my wife from my bedroom it doesn't mean I can see her in the family room.  And yes, I assume my voice sounds like the DO.

Edited April 23, 2013 by mbuehner

[BFG]

 

 

 

 

 

I should have clarified: the SECOND time we hear it is not the dark one unless the dark one has a severe case of dementia

 

Mmm, I think you could read it that the DO was essentially calling Rand out (not necessarily knowing he was SO close) and Rand pops right up a few moments later.  He was on a time frame, after all, with his eclipse and all.  The way the voice was described and its effect on the 3 seemed Dark to me.

 

 

But could the Dark One speak to Rand if he didn't know where he was? 

 

 

In Shayol Ghul? Perhaps.

 

PS- I dont know if I buy it, but i like it better than the Creator making a 'Let's Get Ready to Rumble' flyby.

 

 

Fair enough, I'm happy to agree to a negative for both the Creator and DO, but I can't think of any other reasonable alternative.  The in book evidence against the DO for me outweighs the author quote from RJ, but if anyone could come up with a credible alternative I'd jump at it.  I guess the simplest explanation would be that the dagger didn't work, so the DO could find Rand...

 

 

I dont think the fact that Rand could hear him means that the DO found him. If I yell to my wife from my bedroom it doesn't mean I can see her in the family room.  And yes, I assume my voice sounds like the DO.

 

 

lol

 

My understanding is that the dagger shields the bearer from the DO, as such he couldn't have spoken to Rand privately.  We have no indication from anyone else that the DO was broadcasting more generally... 

 

I guess it's possible that Avi mis-interpreted what could happen, or that I'm inferring more than was meant, but I'm happy with an insolvable puzzle at the end.

[mbuehner]

I'll check tonight but i'm almost positive Moraine and Nynaeve heard the voice.

[BFG]

Cheers, book's out on loan

[mbuehner]

So, unsurprisingly, mixed evidence...

 

Moiraine definitely heard the voice (her eyes went wide), but Rand considered that he had heard the voice once before (EotW) and was 'hoping' to hear it again. He also said 'Thank you' as a response. So. Unless Rand was being astonishingly sarcastic or polite, I don't see him saying thank you to the DO. Yet the voice wasn't meant for only him to hear. So I don't know what to make of all that. I hate the idea of an undisclosed 3rd party super power (my entire problem with Nakomi), but I dislike the idea of the Creator's only visible interaction being as a ring announcer (better just to remain entirely silent than to prove you can actually interact but you choose not to).

[Finally]

I think the simplest answer is the best.

 

Nakomi is Harriet. Nakomi helped Rand do the body swap. Harriet helped Brandon take over for RJ. Body swap = Author change.

 

RJ knew that there was a possibility that he couldn't finish the series, and gave his approval to have the series finished by another author. Maybe it was during this time that he conceived of the body swap ending and altered the original ending. This might also explain the viewing of Rand's 3 girls and the boat. It got lost in the shuffle.

 

The reason that Brandon isn't commenting on this is that it's a bit personal, being between RJ and Harriet.

 

This was also my initial understanding of the Nakomi character.

 

Additionally, this sort of makes sense when you consider the scene with Aviendha when they share a meal & a cuppa together and discuss the future of the Aiel. Perhaps a RL conversation between Harriet and Sanderson inserted into the narative.