Taim's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[esvath]

The Black Tower arc was behind all the rest. Naeff came back and told Rand about what was going on pretty early in Rand's arc, from there, word would have spread. 

No, that's not true. Naeff got retconned. In ToM Rand sent him to BT but in AMoL he is at Merrilor with Rand. Instead, he is sent later after they free themselves to deliver Rand's last order about the Seals.

 

Perrin told Rand about the dreamspike off-screen. Rand probably figured it out from that and Logain's talk from CoT and KoD.

 

No, Naeff did go to BT. See this quote, from the end of ch. 21:

 

“She (Pevara) felt Androl’s uncertainty. The Asha’man Naeff had come to them, bearing news and instructions—and with them, some implications. The Dragon Reborn had known all was not well at the Black Tower.”

[Amandera]

Well, yeah. I didn't say Naeff didn't go to BT. I said he didn't go when he should have.

 

Okay, let me clarify. Rand's meeting with Borderlanders happens a day before FoM. Before that meeting he sent Naeff to the BT, to help Logain.

 

But when we get to AMoL, we see Naeff in FoM meeting. He is one of the three that steps behind Roedran.

Some time passes and Perrin removes the dreamspike. Androl and co. secure the BT.

Cadsuane tells Rand that the Asha'man freed themselves.

Naeff goes to BT.

 

Meaning retcon.

[Sabio]

 

My question, is when was it known to the 'general cast' that Taim was evil? I don't remember seeing him coming out as a Darkfriend in ToM. By the end of ToM, all that was known to those at the Black Tower was "Those taking private lessons from him are coming back all weird." From what I remember, Rand was still more or less trusting Taim to do his thing long as they were ready for the last battle, a sort of 'I'll need to go straighten him out but for now he's fine without me.' sort of thing. First time he's seen outside of the Black Tower in MoL, Rand's all "Time for me to kill you like I should have!" and the rest of the cast knows he's a darkfriend and leading the male dreadlords. At what point did the cast realize he was less "A shady guy but on our side" and more "He's the enemy"?

It was obvious he was up to no good from the very start but the first conclusive evidence I remember about him being of the Shadow is in WH. We have one of the renegade Asha'man's PoV there.

The first evidence was all of Taim's favorites trying to kill Rand but that wasn't proof Taim turned to the darkside he just might of thought he could do a better job then Rand.  Also there was a renagde asha'man pov but I think the point of no doubt Taim has gone bad was when Taim said "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" to the Aes Sedai who came to bond them.  I think he came to Rand for safety, and becuase of his jealousy of Rand was easy to turn to the darkside.  All we know for sure was Demandred recruited him and Mordiin was training him.  I still think after running the Black Tower is when he joined the bad guys, I don't think he could stand being in Rands shadow so jumped at the chance when offered. 

[Suttree]

When we as readers knew and when Rand and the "general cast" would know are two separate questions.

[Sabio]

I must admit I felt the BT battle to be severly lacking.  Sort of like POOF its over Taim was driven out.

[fyodor]

So when did Demandred actually recruit him for Team Darkfriend? Did he pick him out before the whole False Dragon thing and then abandon him for lusher pickings in Shara? Or was it a more recent thing after he figured out that he was trying to overthrow Rand's control of the Black Tower? Let's not forget that Demandred did not recognize Damer Flinn in his black Asha'man coat as a threat during the Cleansing of the Taint.

 

The lack of revelation on this really cheesed me off. We never got any clarification regarding a lot of Taim's suspicious behavior. Why did he use AOL language ( calling Rand's Aiel "so-called Aiel" and "renegade Aiel") if he was recruited by Demandred, someone who was buried in the Bore until TGH? He started talking like a Forsaken in six months?  Was he a "real" false dragon or was he serving the shadow from the start? Was he actually freed by his followers or did the Forsaken free him?

[Axon]

I remain convinced that Taim began life as Demandred's alter ego but was changed because too many people sniffed it out.    Nonetheless, he was yet another victim of running out of things to do.  

[Sabio]

I wouldn'tt say alter ego, I think Taim really suffered from the same things Dem and Samm did, hating being in someone elses shadow.  So I see a lot of Dem in Taim.

[Dakota]

I remain convinced that Taim began life as Demandred's alter ego but was changed because too many people sniffed it out.    Nonetheless, he was yet another victim of running out of things to do.  

I still believe this as well, that originally Taimandred was the intention, but RJ made it a bit too obvious and changed his plans as a result.

[Suttree]

I remain convinced that Taim began life as Demandred's alter ego but was changed because too many people sniffed it out. Nonetheless, he was yet another victim of running out of things to do.

RJ stated flat out that he never intended Taim to be Demy and was surprised when people linked them so strongly.

[MauricXe]

 

I remain convinced that Taim began life as Demandred's alter ego but was changed because too many people sniffed it out. Nonetheless, he was yet another victim of running out of things to do.

RJ stated flat out that he never intended Taim to be Demy and was surprised when people linked them so strongly.

 

his surprise is rather surprising. does he read his own writing lol

[Dakota]

 

 

I remain convinced that Taim began life as Demandred's alter ego but was changed because too many people sniffed it out. Nonetheless, he was yet another victim of running out of things to do.

RJ stated flat out that he never intended Taim to be Demy.

RJ never held the oath rod.

[Duskfire]

Like alot of others, I didnt like the lack of detail regarding Taim. His weird references, his knowledge of weaves, the occasional displays of sympathy he had for Rand, how much of the Shadow plots throughout the series he knew about, etc etc. He truly seemed like an interesting fellow, but in this book he was relegated to Demandred henchman. I didnt mind that so much, since the confrontation between them showed why Demandred was so feared, but still.

[John Everyman]

Gotta say, I was not expecting Taim to fall to Egwene (had my money on Logain), but it felt right to me.  The leader of the White Tower vs the leader of the Black Tower and all. 

[Mr. Micawber]

I remain convinced that Taim began life as Demandred's alter ego but was changed because too many people sniffed it out. Nonetheless, he was yet another victim of running out of things to do.

RJ stated flat out that he never intended Taim to be Demy.

 

RJ never held the oath rod.

 

Dakota, you are my new favorite person

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I remain convinced that Taim began life as Demandred's alter ego but was changed because too many people sniffed it out. Nonetheless, he was yet another victim of running out of things to do.

RJ stated flat out that he never intended Taim to be Demy.

RJ never held the oath rod.

Shrug. Just me but I prefer not to call the man a liar.

[Treebeard]

I think he was handled nice , fittingly ( to much so ?) killed by his opposite

[jjstraka34]

I also thought Taim was handled great, it played perfectly with Demandred finally being let out of the box. These two have been working together since "Lord of Chaos" and I don't think this could have been handled any better. 

[Sabio]

I think a lot of the disgust with Taim is the very weak BT battle.  When the Amirlyn had the vison of the BT in flames and such I think most of use pictured an epic fight.  Taim seemed to give up the tower pretty quickly.

[flinn]

Like alot of others, I didnt like the lack of detail regarding Taim. His weird references, his knowledge of weaves, the occasional displays of sympathy he had for Rand, how much of the Shadow plots throughout the series he knew about, etc etc. He truly seemed like an interesting fellow, but in this book he was relegated to Demandred henchman. I didnt mind that so much, since the confrontation between them showed why Demandred was so feared, but still.

 

 I was always under the impression that Taim's rescue was conducted by the BA, just like they had planned. That is when Demandred started working on him and with him. He has been tutored by one of the most prominent Forsaken and of course would have knowledge of old weaves (more so than new weaves isolated at the BT) and refer to Aiel as "so-called" since that is how his teacher refered to them.

[Axon]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I remain convinced that Taim began life as Demandred's alter ego but was changed because too many people sniffed it out. Nonetheless, he was yet another victim of running out of things to do.

RJ stated flat out that he never intended Taim to be Demy.

RJ never held the oath rod.

Shrug. Just me but I prefer not to call the man a liar.

I don't think it's trampling on his grave to say that he probably changed it up.  But hey, who knows.  It was entertaining the way it went down.  

[Beer Rot]

I guess even now everyone discounts the captured BA sister from the Stone that says she overheard talks of BA going to break Taim free from the AS escorting him to TV?

 

Seems obvious to me, they break him free.. explain he can turn of his own free will, learn the dark arts from Dem himself, and be a key leader after the shadow wins TG, or they can just 13x13 his ass any way.

 

 

 

I remain convinced that Taim began life as Demandred's alter ego but was changed because too many people sniffed it out. Nonetheless, he was yet another victim of running out of things to do.

RJ stated flat out that he never intended Taim to be Demy.

RJ never held the oath rod.

 

p.s. I also remain firmly in team taimandred

[gregweum]

 

I remain convinced that Taim began life as Demandred's alter ego but was changed because too many people sniffed it out. Nonetheless, he was yet another victim of running out of things to do.

RJ stated flat out that he never intended Taim to be Demy and was surprised when people linked them so strongly.

 

Methinketh RJ didth protest too much.

 

+1 for Taimandred camp.

 

I think the change ruined lots of RJ's plans as well.  Taimandred was going to bring an awesome force to the LB....  instead, Taim brought tatters from the Black Tower and Demandred scooped up a nation we knew little about.

[pmtang]

Well the Sharan's were referenced several times earlier in the book so it made sense that they would be in the Last Battle.  Somebody from the Shadow had to lead them.  Unless they were originally supposed to fight for the light.............

[gregweum]

Well the Sharan's were referenced several times earlier in the book so it made sense that they would be in the Last Battle.  Somebody from the Shadow had to lead them.  Unless they were originally supposed to fight for the light.............

 

Seanchan only made a partial appearance (at a minimum the empire has to be 5 times the size currently in Randland), despite tons of on camera time.  The Seafolk did next to nothing....   a few channelers worked on the Bowl of the Winds -- no other contribution of channelers or fighters, again despite tons of camera time.  The Finns were completely out of the fight.  The Isle of Madmen wasn't used.  The ghosts that popped up all over the world were absent.  The Shaido stayed in the Waste.

 

I don't see that there was any real need to include Shara in the Last Battle, simply because it was mentioned a couple of times.