Taim's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

Discuss Taim. Do it now!!!

[dark_hound]

I don't know if this falls more under Taim or Demandred, but that scene where Demandred shields Taim from the True Power and then draws True Power from Taim was pretty awesome. I'm not sure if it was supposed to foreshadow Rand and Moridin at the end, but it was an awesome visual (especially with the glowing red ball or whatever hanging above Taim). 

[Christina Gleason]

So when did Demandred actually recruit him for Team Darkfriend? Did he pick him out before the whole False Dragon thing and then abandon him for lusher pickings in Shara? Or was it a more recent thing after he figured out that he was trying to overthrow Rand's control of the Black Tower? Let's not forget that Demandred did not recognize Damer Flinn in his black Asha'man coat as a threat during the Cleansing of the Taint.

[esvath]

How many are the number of Taim's dreadlords (DF or Turned)? Where were they and what did they do?

 

Oh yeah, Taim masking Androl as Androl is quite funny, but Androl pickpocketing the seals is ... anti-climatic, imho.

[Dakota]

My question, is when was it known to the 'general cast' that Taim was evil? I don't remember seeing him coming out as a Darkfriend in ToM.

 

By the end of ToM, all that was known to those at the Black Tower was "Those taking private lessons from him are coming back all weird." From what I remember, Rand was still more or less trusting Taim to do his thing long as they were ready for the last battle, a sort of 'I'll need to go straighten him out but for now he's fine without me.' sort of thing.

 

First time he's seen outside of the Black Tower in MoL, Rand's all "Time for me to kill you like I should have!" and the rest of the cast knows he's a darkfriend and leading the male dreadlords.

 

At what point did the cast realize he was less "A shady guy but on our side" and more "He's the enemy"?

[pmtang]

Remember, it was actually Taim that initiated the conflict against Rand at Tarwin's Gap.  That might actually be the first Rand knew of Taim's treachery.  In chapter 18 when he was discussing with Cadsuane about The Black Tower he says,

 

How many had been lost?  Could he have saved them, if he'd gone?  He'd known for days now of [the Asha'man's in the Black Tower] predicament, and yet he'd left them, obeying Moiraine's insistent counsel that this was a trap he could not afford to spring.

[Aver]

Taim really fizzled out for me. I really didn't mind that he died at Egwene's hand but it just didn't seem likes there was much depth to his character at that point. The black tower plot line was a bust for me too. Also, wished he fought Logain.

 

Did like the anger in his eyes when Demandred sets him straight.

[Mr. Micawber]

Taim's character was a nothing burger, but then so was Logain's thanks to utterly unnecessary Superhero Andhrol

[Aver]

Yeah we really didn't need Androl. I mean I didn't mind him but I would have much rather read about Logain.

[Mr. Micawber]

Literally every single thing that was done by Androl could have been done by Logain, leading to the confrontation we've been waiting for since like Book 6, and certainly 8 or 9

[Aver]

I totally agree. I read somewhere(don't remember where) that Androl was Sanderson's creation. Feels like another Sleete.

[Mr. Micawber]

If Androl is Sanderson's creation, I will chainsaw my copy and post pictures here. He's an incredibly annoying Marty Stu

[Amandera]

My question, is when was it known to the 'general cast' that Taim was evil? I don't remember seeing him coming out as a Darkfriend in ToM. By the end of ToM, all that was known to those at the Black Tower was "Those taking private lessons from him are coming back all weird." From what I remember, Rand was still more or less trusting Taim to do his thing long as they were ready for the last battle, a sort of 'I'll need to go straighten him out but for now he's fine without me.' sort of thing. First time he's seen outside of the Black Tower in MoL, Rand's all "Time for me to kill you like I should have!" and the rest of the cast knows he's a darkfriend and leading the male dreadlords. At what point did the cast realize he was less "A shady guy but on our side" and more "He's the enemy"?

It was obvious he was up to no good from the very start but the first conclusive evidence I remember about him being of the Shadow is in WH. We have one of the renegade Asha'man's PoV there.

[Aver]

If Androl is Sanderson's creation, I will chainsaw my copy and post pictures here. He's an incredibly annoying Marty Stu

 

Q: Is there a character you took in a different direction from what Jordan had intended?

A: In terms of a character, and what would happen to them ultimately, no, not really. However, there were times when some things had to be adjusted, specifically some plot points, in order to make the narrative as a whole flow better. Brandon did mention that he wanted a character that he felt like was his own, which he got to do the most development on. That character became Androl. A lot of what Androl did were things which RJ said had to happen. Brandon picked Androl to do them, and gave the character his own touch more than any other.

 

better go get your chainsaw...

[Mr. Micawber]

When I am next upstate, I will chainsaw and burn this. I'm utterly furious right now

[Barid Bel Medar]

Not all of Androl was a Brandon creation, Androl existed before RJ died, if that matters any. So it's not a completely made up character, although he certainly took him in a different direction than what RJ intended probably. 

[Mr. Micawber]

You can't possibly be trolling, so I assume you're extremely British and therefore skilled in the art of severe understatement

[Ozzie_aiel]

Androl makes a better hero than Logain. Doing all that stuff while being so weak in the Power. But onto Taim.

 

Don't think he should've become one of the chosen, no matter how many channellers he turned to the dark side. Didn't do a good job as a chosen, his first major mission in the Last Battle (ambushing Rand), didn't work, then lost in a fight with a teenaged girl while he was holding an an awesome sa'angreal.

 

The first time we have some idea Taim is bad is PoD when the rogue ashaman attqck the sun palace

[Barid Bel Medar]

Taim is and always has been a coward and worthless. Typical bully archetype, runs at any sign of trouble and beats his subordinates for failing to do what he is tasked with. Glad that Demandred smacked him down well and insulted him by giving him Sakarnen. By giving him it so freely basically shows how worthless he thinks Taim is. 

 

The only point in favour of Taim is that he is extremely powerful and is intelligent. But really, he lacked any backbone to be of any use. 

 

I love when (I forget who it is) asks him if his legs are tired from running. (Did this even happen? I need to go through a re-read to look) 

[garryturk]

The question of when Dem recruited Taim is going to be a key one.  Because after what we got in AMOL it looks like the theories about him being under a second-ager's wing for years being the reasons for his statements like "so called Aiel" back in LOC aren't possible.  I never believed the ideas that RJ was intentionally misleading with the Taim is Dem hints and thought we'd get some major "aha!" reveal in AMOL that explained all the oddities just as we did with Verin in TGS.

But no, it seems he was no more than a very powerful DF channeler and all the hints in LOC  were at best red herrings.  I hope I missed something.

And as mentioned on another thread, he pulls off the ultimate heist of swapping out the Seals then keeps pulling them out to admire (my precious) and hangs them on a bag at his belt?  I know there's a fine line between pride  and stupidity but I thought he was so much smarter than that.

[sleepinghour]

I totally agree. I read somewhere(don't remember where) that Androl was Sanderson's creation. Feels like another Sleete.

 

I mentally dubbed him "Brandrol" because he felt too much like the author's mouthpiece.

[Dakota]

 

 

My question, is when was it known to the 'general cast' that Taim was evil? I don't remember seeing him coming out as a Darkfriend in ToM. By the end of ToM, all that was known to those at the Black Tower was "Those taking private lessons from him are coming back all weird." From what I remember, Rand was still more or less trusting Taim to do his thing long as they were ready for the last battle, a sort of 'I'll need to go straighten him out but for now he's fine without me.' sort of thing. First time he's seen outside of the Black Tower in MoL, Rand's all "Time for me to kill you like I should have!" and the rest of the cast knows he's a darkfriend and leading the male dreadlords. At what point did the cast realize he was less "A shady guy but on our side" and more "He's the enemy"?

It was obvious he was up to no good from the very start but the first conclusive evidence I remember about him being of the Shadow is in WH. We have one of the renegade Asha'man's PoV there.

I know we the readers have known for a while he was on the dark side. My question is, when did Rand, Rand's personally following of Ashaman and Aes Sedai, Mat and Elayne and the generals of the light, all them, at what point did -they- find out he was on the dark side? The first time Taim shows his true colors is at Tarwin's Gap in the trap that he set for Rand. Rand somehow knows it's Taim, and when Rand escapes the trap and returns, everyone seems to know that Taim was waiting for him. It just feels to me like there was a chapter cut somewhere.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The Black Tower arc was behind all the rest. Naeff came back and told Rand about what was going on pretty early in Rand's arc, from there, word would have spread. 

[Dakota]

The Black Tower arc was behind all the rest. Naeff came back and told Rand about what was going on pretty early in Rand's arc, from there, word would have spread. 

I know that's probably what happened, I just think it was a hell of an important plot point to happen 'off camera'.

[Amandera]

The Black Tower arc was behind all the rest. Naeff came back and told Rand about what was going on pretty early in Rand's arc, from there, word would have spread. 

No, that's not true. Naeff got retconned. In ToM Rand sent him to BT but in AMoL he is at Merrilor with Rand. Instead, he is sent later after they free themselves to deliver Rand's last order about the Seals.

 

Perrin told Rand about the dreamspike off-screen. Rand probably figured it out from that and Logain's talk from CoT and KoD.