Moiraine's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[orient]

Like everything else, Merrilor was executed in an extremely sloppy way.  However, I imagine that in Jordan's notes that was indeed the essence of Moiraine's role - to help convince Rand to completely embrace his true destiny in a way that even post VoG he still didn't understand (leave the battle, face the DO immediately, trust in the strength of those who follow you), and to help unite the nations (and Egwene) behind the dragon.  It was written horribly, but had it been written well, I don't see that as a small role.

 

Exactly this. Sadly, what we ended up with was a preachy lady turning up to give the rulers of Randland a lecture on the prophecies.

[Edynol]

Well now were talking about poor writing and such.  I agree that it could have been done better, but the fact is, it was written the way it was, and the way it was written, Moiraine was most definitely the reason everything didn't fall a part and the forces of light not falling.  Saying it should have been written differently to back your arguments is just an opinion and doesn't change the facts.  It was written the way it was written and that's how it happened.  Case closed.

[RelentlessAttack]

If you actually read my post you will see that I 100% agree that that was her role.  My point is that the reason that her arc feels flat to some is not because her role was actually small - it just wasn't presented in a satisfying or convincing way.

[Edynol]

If you actually read my post you will see that I 100% agree that that was her role.  My point is that the reason that her arc feels flat to some is not because her role was actually small - it just wasn't presented in a satisfying or convincing way.

 

Sorry, I was responding to Arrg.  I was still writing when you posted.

[fertileground]

I was disapointed in the cheap way she was used, playing Egwene to Egwene's Elaida with the recitation of prophecy. And then she fades to the background. Meh.

Unlike some others, I really enjoyed AMOL as a whole and a lot of the characters. However, I agree with you on Moiraine-I was dissappointed. Her re-appearance was very anti-climactic, and almost irrelevant to the book, other than being in the Callendor circle. I think there should have been at least a half chapter or more of dialogue between her and the Emonds Fielders.

[Grr Aaargh]

@Edynol: I think it can get very hard to distinguish between things like "poor writing" and "plot". The plot simply falls apart if a scene is so poorly written that I cannot stay immersed in the fiction. In a way, you can count yourself very lucky that this book gave you no trouble, that you could simply accept the plot as it was presented to you. Yes, "the way it was written, Moiraine was most definitely the reason everything didn't fall apart" - but the way it was written contradicted so strongly with the way the previous 10-12 volumes were written (including TGS and ToM) that I cannot combine them into a single narrative in my head. Do you get what I mean? You say it's very simple, "That's how it happened" - but a narrative has to make sense, it has to be plausible within the fictional world, for that to work. 

 

In general, fictional events only "happen" in your head. If a fight is well-written, even if it's relatively minor (like the fight in Ebou Dar where Nalesean got killed), it can have a huge impact on you, it "feels real". If it is not as well-written, events that would be traumatic if you experienced them in real life can have less of an impact (the whole story of Faile's captivity was like that for me). And if an event is really poorly written, like Moiraine at Merrilor, than a lot of people have trouble accepting the fiction as "real", and DM fills up with unhappy readers. Of course, people disagree a lot on what works and what doesn't, like you and me right now. But I think it's helpful to think these issues through carefully, together with all the other people who have also read the book and are either disappointed, or not, as the case may be.

 

EDIT: Wow, that got a bit complicated, sorry. Do you get what I mean though?

[Edynol]

Oh okay.  Yeah I get that.  It definitely could have been done better.  I don't deny that.  I just don't agree that Moiraine's return meant nothing or that her arc was pretty much pointless, as others seem to be saying.  That's what I was getting at.

[Entreri]

What was the point of Moraine?

 

I would like to see a seperate Lan and Tam thread. 

[clu7ch]

The Point of moiraine was simple and easy to see. SHE Helped Rand seal the bore. She helped him ally the leaders of randland. It's rather clear. It's a little unfortunate that she didn't do more, but on the scale of things, what she did was not just huge, but essential. 

[Entreri]

The Point of moiraine was simple and easy to see. SHE Helped Rand seal the bore. She helped him ally the leaders of randland. It's rather clear. It's a little unfortunate that she didn't do more, but on the scale of things, what she did was not just huge, but essential. 

 

The Bore, any AS with a strong mind would have sufficed (e.g. Cadsuane).  Nyaneve was more essentiall at the Bore, due to her herb knowledge.

 

As for the meeting, I suspect without Moraine, Cadusane would have done the same thing. 

[Tsukibana]

Yes, but Cadsuane hadn't killed two Forsaken, found the Dragon Reborn, or returned from the dead.

Moiraine is my favorite Aes Sedai, although, like Mat, I missed when she and Thom fell in love.

 

This thread covers Thom, too, right? what in the LIGHT did he/is he going to do with the names of those

who gentled Owyn? Did I miss something?

[Suttree]

Yes, but Cadsuane hadn't killed two Forsaken, found the Dragon Reborn, or returned from the dead.

 

Yeah she only saved his live twice over, planned a defense that spanked all the forsaken allowing the taint to be cleansed, rescued Rand from being shipped back to Elaida, and swore to do what was best for Rand(not herself or the WT) and was the catalyst for his epiphany on DM. She had Rands back as hard as anyone.

[Tsukibana]

@Tree

Agreed, Grumpy Grandma was appropriately bad-ass, but she wasn't as well known as Moiraine to the rulers.

Note: Previous post to explain why Cads couldn't have convinced rulers to join at FoM, not why Moiraine had to 

enter Pit with Rand. Should have been more specific.

[Entreri]

 

Yes, but Cadsuane hadn't killed two Forsaken, found the Dragon Reborn, or returned from the dead.

Yeah she only saved his live twice over, planned a defense that spanked all the forsaken allowing the taint to be cleansed, rescued Rand from being shipped back to Elaida, and swore to do what was best for Rand(not herself or the WT) and was the catalyst for his epiphany on DM. She had Rands back as hard as anyone.

 

Exactly. 

 

Most of the fans may not like Cadsuane, but she is one for the Ages, similar to Moraine, Egwene and Nynaeve. 

[jjstraka34]

Moiraine had no arc in this book. She was brought in to bring excitement to a listless meeting of world leaders at Merrilor, and she felt off from the start. She had no interaction with Lan, who was side by side with her in a 20 year quest to bring about this moment, and her tea party with Rand was cringe-worthy. Her and Nynaeve's job in the Pit of Doom was to stand ready for when Rand needed them. I'm fine with that even if it was underplayed. Those two were meant to be with him. But she was one of the most disappointing parts of the book. The only part that rang true was when Nynaeve hugged her when she entered the tent at Merrilor. That rang true to their relationship all the way back to the first few 100 pages of the series, and was one of the most poignant parts of the book.

[AndyB]

Unlike some others, I really enjoyed AMOL as a whole and a lot of the characters. However, I agree with you on Moiraine-I was dissappointed. Her re-appearance was very anti-climactic, and almost irrelevant to the book, other than being in the Callendor circle. I think there should have been at least a half chapter or more of dialogue between her and the Emonds Fielders.

 

THIS.  The band (less Red Hand and more Led Zeppelin) managed to get back together for one brief moment, it would have been nice to see them reminisce a little.  I've always liked the original set of characters and found their relationships interesting, I would have enjoyed seeing them catch up.  

 

This wasn't just the end of a book, it was the end of an institution.  I'm pretty sure most people approached it with mixed feelings of anticipation and trepidation, knowing that this was the last that they'd see of characters they had grown to know and love over the course of decades.  It would have been a perfect opportunity for the characters in the book to mirror that feeling, knowing that it was going to be the last time they'd see each other.  Pity it didn't turn out that way.

[Luckers]

In Brandon's defence (though why I bother given the attitude he's taken), Moiraine was always going to be the most difficult thing to handle--short of her rocking up and single handedly defeating the Dark One, having a plot based satisfaction from Moiraine's return was always going to be next to impossible--she's been gone too long, been built up too much, and come back too late.

 

Perhaps if she had come back earlier in TofM (there does seem to be a sense of saving everything for the last book, and in a way that didn't work out), but ultimately I think the drive her of return should have been done through smaller, less impacting scenes--interaction moments and the like. Yes Min's viewing needed to be answered, but perhaps it shouldn't have been the point of her role, just an effect of it, if that makes sense.

 

Additionally, I do feel that comparative to the way some other things were handled, she was handled well. But that's marking on a curve.

[Drakkon]

I have to agree with what others have said here.  Moraine was a missed opportunity for some great story telling and some truly heart wrenching reunions.  Her return and the anticipation for some of those meetings was one of the main reasons I was excited to read this book.  

[Tsukibana]

 

 

Yes, but Cadsuane hadn't killed two Forsaken, found the Dragon Reborn, or returned from the dead.

Yeah she only saved his live twice over, planned a defense that spanked all the forsaken allowing the taint to be cleansed, rescued Rand from being shipped back to Elaida, and swore to do what was best for Rand(not herself or the WT) and was the catalyst for his epiphany on DM. She had Rands back as hard as anyone.

 

Exactly. 

 

Most of the fans may not like Cadsuane, but she is one for the Ages, similar to Moraine, Egwene and Nynaeve. 

 

*sighs*

I am NOT dogging Cadsuane, I liked her quite a bit, in fact.

but she is a legendary AES SEDAI, not a legend. Non-AS wouldn't care who in the Light she is, and would need reasons for Cads'

badassery explained. Moiraine=No explanation needed. Even bloody Tairens knew her and showed her respect, way back in DR/tSR.

Cairheinin noble-woman, Uncrowned King's Bondholder, Finder of Ta'veren and the Dragon, Only one (we know of) to meet the Green Man twice,

Killer of Lanfear and Be'lal, Pillow friend to the Amyrlin (*hoots*), Only Aes Sedai to enter Rhuidiean and Accepted by the Wise Ones almost off-

rip, discoverer of the first Seal the WT had their hands on in centuries (at least), Discoverer of the Horn (in part, but the rest of the farmboy's wouldn't

even have know how to open the chest), Laman's niece, ... *snorts* yeah, Cads TOTALLY  could have done what she did.

My girl got screwed by BS/TJ, and it saddens me.

[BFG]

@Sutt - regardless of personal feelings of Cads (or at least as impartially as I can manage).  Cads didn't have the trust of Eg, so couldn't have taken the role of Moiraine at the FoM.  I agree that the entire scene was a mess, but her role in it made perfect sense.

[Agitel]

I would have loved to see a Moiraine POV, either when she gives her speech at Merrilor or when she's talking with Rand and he tries the "I'm 400 years old" thing on her. It was important to get the Rand POVs, too, but we could have used Moiraine's. Also, a scene with Lan would have been nice, nearly immediately after their rescue. Unnecessary to the overall plot, but it would have brought a little more resolution to her arc. I agree with Luckers that he extremely long absence may have built up unreasonable expectations, or that she'd at least be difficult to handle.

[nikios2099]

 

The Point of moiraine was simple and easy to see. SHE Helped Rand seal the bore. She helped him ally the leaders of randland. It's rather clear. It's a little unfortunate that she didn't do more, but on the scale of things, what she did was not just huge, but essential. 

 

The Bore, any AS with a strong mind would have sufficed (e.g. Cadsuane).  Nyaneve was more essentiall at the Bore, due to her herb knowledge.

 

As for the meeting, I suspect without Moraine, Cadusane would have done the same thing. 

 

it's perhaps not Moiraine that was needed at the bore but Thom that was needed at the door ...

 

without Mat's sacrifice , Thom would have been killed in trying to save Moiraine and without Thom to recognize and kill her , the false cadsuane could have enter the DO's repair and kill Rand ...

[The Fisher King]

Ive been eager as a spring hare all week to share my FIVE FAVORITE Moiraine Moments that Ive looked forward to for YEARS that were in AMOL!!!

 

1 Moiraine's Reunion With Lan - ... ummm... ....

 

2 Moiraine's Reunion With Rand From Moiraine's POV!!! ...UMMM...

 

3 Moiraine's Reunion With Rand From RAND'S POV...UMMMMMMMM......

 

4 Moirain'es Reunion With Suian ...................................

 

5 Moiraine's Wishes To The 'Finns.......

 

...Believe it or not, I actually really liked the writing of Moiraine in this book...what we saw of her.

 

I'll never forgive Brandon for shifting to PERRIN's pov instead of Rand's when Moiraine walked in the first time.

 

 

Criminal.

 

 

Fish

[jack of shadows]

i got the impression that brandon sanderson had no idea what to do with moiraine.

she was absent for far too long,and too many things have changed since the fires of heaven.

robert jordan gave moiraine's old job to cadsuane,siuan sanche is no longer the amyrlin,so

moiraine is also without her former political clout.

egwene,mat and perrin are all bona fide leaders now(for better or for worse)not to mention

that her former protege and first priority rand,is halfway to full godhood.

the once all important and essential character who used to advise and fight side by side the

dragon reborn,is now just another aes sedai.

instead of fixing some of those problems by reintegrating moiraine a lot sooner,bs opted

to work around them and threw moiraine  into the fire.

the problem with the awful field of merrilor scene is not moiraine nor rand,but egwene.

so yes,moiraine saved the day,and she got her sixty seconds of glory,but it was..lame.

after that,she was just a bystander.

[The Fisher King]

Great post. He didn't know what to do with Cadsuane either, so he childishly just destroyed her.

 

I actually liked the way Moiraine was written in AMOL. There was just, obviously, far too little of her.

 

 

Fish