Battles (Full Spoilers)

[Morden]

 

How many male channelers were with the Sharans? If Demandred recruited as he went along, put a stop to some of the Sharan practices, he could have taught them some weaves, and even set up his own "school" in Shara. He had access to darkfriend men who could channel from the west, no reason he couldn't have used some to help.

The men would have to completely rehabilitated from animals in less than a year. Plus his selection would have been scarce given the ages left alive. That's a small group.

Full blown compulsion could do it, totally strip their minds and then create a new one. Sort of like Graendal does with her pets and servants. So we know it is possible to varying degrees. Whether Demandred is good enough with compulsion is another matter, Graendal was an artist at it.

 

But yeah I think your right about the scarcety. If he had access to 1000 of the right ages to try and force them it would be pretty miraculous, but that would only cover those who come from Natural Sparker Bloodlines, not those which can be taught. With travelling parties he could gather them quickly like the BT did. But it requires a core to begin with.

 

We have too little information about the state of affairs in Shara. I still think the numbers are unnaturally low in comparisson to previous books but what's done is done and we'll never know what happened to those armies and channellers. Though I hope for BS's sake he's more consistent with his own work or has editors which pick up on that sort of thing without dropping the ball, because dropping stupid amounts of people off the map like this is not a good thing, it shows a profound lack of planning and foresight

[MasterAblar]

Then I'm kinda lost about Maradon and the numbers now look worse. The hell are all these Ashaman hiding. LAN only had 5. Wtf is that about.

Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction while reading the book. At least Maradon the Asha'man are shown in action fighting the trollocs. It's just that there are a huge amount of trollocs, too many for them to deal with.

 

But in aMoL they're not even mentioned. Logain shows up with 200 (according to Elayne), which is less than he should have had, but it's like 600-700 Asha'man just fell off the map at some point.

[The Fisher King]

Believe it or not...I thought the battle scenes were *fairly* well done.

 

One thing that MAY have helped quite a bit is that one of the members of Team Jordan was - like RJ - a combat veteran.

 

 

Fish

[Didgya]

I am sure glad I was reading and enjoying the book instead of counting every single person in the fighting.   

[Vardar]

 

Then I'm kinda lost about Maradon and the numbers now look worse. The hell are all these Ashaman hiding. LAN only had 5. Wtf is that about.

Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction while reading the book. At least Maradon the Asha'man are shown in action fighting the trollocs. It's just that there are a huge amount of trollocs, too many for them to deal with.

 

But in aMoL they're not even mentioned. Logain shows up with 200 (according to Elayne), which is less than he should have had, but it's like 600-700 Asha'man just fell off the map at some point.

 

Naw Logain said he had 100. Taim had 100 as well. 

[Vardar]

I am sure glad I was reading and enjoying the book instead of counting every single person in the fighting.   

I still enjoyed the book, but it's kinda hard to notice people missing when THE BATTLE FOR EXISTENCE ITSELF is looming. I mean, what people just said screw existence, I don't feel like going outside today? I don't get it. 

[Suttree]

 

 

 

I am sure glad I was reading and enjoying the book instead of counting every single person in the fighting.

I still enjoyed the book, but it's kinda hard to notice people missing when THE BATTLE FOR EXISTENCE ITSELF is looming. I mean, what people just said screw existence, I don't feel like going outside today? I don't get it.

Stop being silly Vards, why on earth would we hold the author accountable for details and continuity? ;) Edited January 21, 2013 by Suttree

[Owyn]

 

Then I'm kinda lost about Maradon and the numbers now look worse. The hell are all these Ashaman hiding. LAN only had 5. Wtf is that about.

Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction while reading the book. At least Maradon the Asha'man are shown in action fighting the trollocs. It's just that there are a huge amount of trollocs, too many for them to deal with.

 

But in aMoL they're not even mentioned. Logain shows up with 200 (according to Elayne), which is less than he should have had, but it's like 600-700 Asha'man just fell off the map at some point.

per my understanding Rand took a ton of channelers with him from the black tower somepoint around Knife of Dreams, I think.  

[Vardar]

 

 

 

 

I am sure glad I was reading and enjoying the book instead of counting every single person in the fighting.

I still enjoyed the book, but it's kinda hard to notice people missing when THE BATTLE FOR EXISTENCE ITSELF is looming. I mean, what people just said screw existence, I don't feel like going outside today? I don't get it.

Stop being silly Vards, why on earth would we hold the author accountable for details and continuity? ;)

 

 

Touche sir, touche. 

 

 

 

 

 

Then I'm kinda lost about Maradon and the numbers now look worse. The hell are all these Ashaman hiding. LAN only had 5. Wtf is that about.

Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction while reading the book. At least Maradon the Asha'man are shown in action fighting the trollocs. It's just that there are a huge amount of trollocs, too many for them to deal with.

 

But in aMoL they're not even mentioned. Logain shows up with 200 (according to Elayne), which is less than he should have had, but it's like 600-700 Asha'man just fell off the map at some point.

per my understanding Rand took a ton of channelers with him from the black tower somepoint around Knife of Dreams, I think.  

 

That's been the understanding, I assumed they came back, however it now begs the question, how did Maradon fall with 100 Ashaman? and why did Lan have 5 with him. 5? Really? The WT army had none (Except maybe the bonded ones, but I thought they were with Rand), Elayne's had none, Lan had 5, so Rand's army have 395 Ashaman with him? Really? I mean, if he was trying to remain hidden, why take that many. 

 

It's just a lot of stuff that does add up. I mean, I understand why it was done, as discussed a few pages back, the channeler numbers were out of control, they had to be taken in some, so that's how they did it. 

 

 

But Sutts, I'm going to a book signing next month, you best believe I intend on asking about the Sharan men. I just can't let that one pass me by. I can stand for making random people disappear, I mean maybe they were hiding, because they lost their will to live and survive, but I can't abide by introducing people who don't bloody exist! 

[Lord Melkor]

 

 

 

 

 

But Sutts, I'm going to a book signing next month, you best believe I intend on asking about the Sharan men. I just can't let that one pass me by. I can stand for making random people disappear, I mean maybe they were hiding, because they lost their will to live and survive, but I can't abide by introducing people who don't bloody exist! 

Well, Sharan male channelers were likely trained to channel by Demandred. 

[megalomax]

 

 

 

Numbers/descriptions off, battle plans ridiculous, excuses made to weaken channelers and a huge example of the "tell don't show" style in these last three books in relation the plans themselves. You can't just tell the readers they are brilliant plans when the flaws are so readily apparent.

I recall doing a vague tally just after ToM and finding there should be roughly 4 million (on the low-side) total troops present at Tarmon Gai'don, though I don't know where I came up with my Trolloc numbers. There were not even half that in aMoL if I read it correctly.

there was one about Lan mentioning his force of (below) 10 thousand versus 150 thousand at tarwin gap

 

And may I add, I loved the part where Androl went full on PORTALS in the war.

Edited January 21, 2013 by megalomax

[megalomax]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But Sutts, I'm going to a book signing next month, you best believe I intend on asking about the Sharan men. I just can't let that one pass me by. I can stand for making random people disappear, I mean maybe they were hiding, because they lost their will to live and survive, but I can't abide by introducing people who don't bloody exist!

Sharan male channelers were likely trained to channel by Demandred.

 

 

Not sure if this had been mentioned already (I'm new)

 

Edit a bit. Greandal knew of the Sharans and showed a pair to Sammael hoping that he'd investigate and encounter Demandred. She mentioned that the Sharans ruled 1 male channeler and 1 female channeler for six years then commits suicide. I think there was going to be a book about this before RJ died.

Noal/Jain was written in and he traveled to shara, in previous books Domon allegedly traded with them and some Sea Folk talking about breaking Sharan trade customs somewhere along the books dealing with weather. Even Aiel and Tinkers encountered them. (needs some citation I know but the last time I read books 1 to 10 was 7 years ago)

 

RJ must have painted such a vast world that I think future battles would have pitted the beings in the tower of Ghenjie against Rand, not mentioning Machin Shin and other nations across the ocean not just Seanchan (portal stones)

 

I'm going to read the series again but I'm really amazed at how stuff RJ wrote in older books clicked into place. It's a shame that they had to end the book for the sanity of the readers lol

Edited January 21, 2013 by megalomax

[Agitel]

That's been the understanding, I assumed they came back, however it now begs the question, how did Maradon fall with 100 Ashaman? 

 

I think exhaustion is the only explanation. Dumai's Well was an all out assault to free Rand, not a prolonged defense. Channelers are highly effective, especially in the short term, but if you need them for a prolonged defense you're going to have to be rotating them, facing exhaustion, and attrition.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

That's been the understanding, I assumed they came back, however it now begs the question, how did Maradon fall with 100 Ashaman? 

 

I think exhaustion is the only explanation. Dumai's Well was an all out assault to free Rand, not a prolonged defense. Channelers are highly effective, especially in the short term, but if you need them for a prolonged defense you're going to have to be rotating them, facing exhaustion, and attrition.

 

And not all Asha'man are as strong and talented as Rand or the named Asha'man. They can only do so much. I think Rand and the prominent Asha'man paint a distorted picture of how good they are in a fight. 

 

They are better than most at killing, but the Power of your average channeler, male or female, is not that great that 100 Asha'man would be able to hold back that amount of Shadowspawn. 

 

As Agitel said, Dumai's Wells was a unique situation, they only needed to kill with all their strength for a short amount of time against a fleeing foe with a fraction of the number. They didn't have to worry about anything but rescuing Rand. 

 

At Maradon, they weren't used just for killing. They were used for Healing, Travelling, scouting, relaying messages (via the beacons etc.) They were up against a force that outnumbered them vastly and were forced into a prolonged battle where they were on the defensive. The Shadowspawn were attacking, not fleeing like the Shaido, thus they had to protect themselves not just kill, which drains strength. 

 

I would say that I could agree that the Asha'man at Maradon didn't put up as much of a fight as you would expect, however, even if they had been written as good as realistically possible - without becoming totally overpowered - they still would have lost Maradon. 

[mbuehner]

That's well and good, and it would make more sense if the quantities of Trollocs hadn't been nerfed as well. Point being- we know channelers can wipe out an army of 100,000 shadowspawn in basically an hour or so given open terrain etc. However the LB trolloc armies ended up being about the same size (certainly not an order of magnitude larger as it probably should have been) as the armies Rand personally wiped out on two separate occasions (well, with some help in one). We also know trollocs can't travel (although i agree they seem to move magically quickly off screen), hence your best bet is to let them march for a while into the wilderness (of which there is a ton in Randland), pop in, decimate the trolloc army, pop out, and then rest until they send the next army marching down. This idea of actually fighting them sword to sword while a huge chunk of your channelers bothers with moving and tending the wounded and bringing supplies forward to do so is insanely circular in logic. If you dont send armies to fight them, you dont need channelers catering to the armies logistics and healing, and hence you have plenty of channelers to do the fighting, rest in between, and form a ready reserve to pop in and nuke dreadlords when they show. There really wasn't any good reason to actually defend anyplace... IE- why fight at Tarwin's Gap and across Shienar if you are willing to burn Fal Dura and Fal Muran? It would take days and weeks for trolloc armies to get to the next population center. Let the Dreadlords waste their strength moving food and weapons via gateways. Then pick your moment and pop in and drop the hammer. Rinse repeat. That should be obvious. The only way this war makes sense is if you posit the Shadow having essentially limitless trolloc hordes, and for some dumb reason their numbers got nerfed along with the great channeler nerfing. Somebody can chime in on this but it seems to me the shadowspawn numbers in the Last Battle must have been significantly smaller than they were at the height of the Trolloc Wars, given the strength of the Light nations back then compared to now.

[mbuehner]

Btw, its 600 miles between Caemlyn and Cairhein, and it looks about the same between Tarwin's Gap and TV (the next big population center after Shienar). Lets say the trollocs can march 50 miles a day (which is ridiculous but seems to be about what they were doing in TGH being driven hard by Fain, although a much smaller group). Thats still 12 days of brutal marching.

[megalomax]

 

Btw, its 600 miles between Caemlyn and Cairhein, and it looks about the same between Tarwin's Gap and TV (the next big population center after Shienar). Lets say the trollocs can march 50 miles a day (which is ridiculous but seems to be about what they were doing in TGH being driven hard by Fain, although a much smaller group). Thats still 12 days of brutal marching.

dreadlord gates?

[jwillis7]

 

 

Btw, its 600 miles between Caemlyn and Cairhein, and it looks about the same between Tarwin's Gap and TV (the next big population center after Shienar). Lets say the trollocs can march 50 miles a day (which is ridiculous but seems to be about what they were doing in TGH being driven hard by Fain, although a much smaller group). Thats still 12 days of brutal marching.

dreadlord gates?

shadowspawn cannot go through gateways.  they just come out dead

[megalomax]

 

 

 

 

Btw, its 600 miles between Caemlyn and Cairhein, and it looks about the same between Tarwin's Gap and TV (the next big population center after Shienar). Lets say the trollocs can march 50 miles a day (which is ridiculous but seems to be about what they were doing in TGH being driven hard by Fain, although a much smaller group). Thats still 12 days of brutal marching.

dreadlord gates?

shadowspawn cannot go through gateways. they just come out dead

Oh yeah one of the limitations. I guess way gates and marching are the only ways.

 

pretty clever of RJ/BS to make the TP traveling look like it's only one person at a time.

[Simplman28]

It seemed like creating a gateway took only a fair amount of the aes sedai and Asha'man strength, I mean their were people creating gateways throughout the battle, so why weren't they being used as weapons more often? I mean a few well placed gates in the ground and tie them off. All of those Trollocs stumbling forward into them would die. Seems like an obvious battle stretgy that wasn't used once!

[Simplman28]

I am sure glad I was reading and enjoying the book instead of counting every single person in the fighting.   

I agree with didgya. Plus, there is the implication at numerous points throughout the series that these books were the writings of loial, so maybe he got some of the details wrong while trying to recount them.

[tokkk]

I posted this on Mats Arc thread as well but didnt get much feedback.

 

With respect to the Hinderstrap group that came to defend and retake the damming of the river, there were 100 redarms with the townspeople along with Delarn who Mat had saved when they first went into Hinderstrap.  When Mat originally went to Hinderstrap, he only went with a handful of redarms (including Delarn) and the aeis sedai.  Does this mean that he sent the 100 that is now with the townspeople on a suicide mission to initially get the town onboard?

[shortkut]

Few points that other people have mentioned that I want to comment on

 

1. Tied off gateways: didn't RJ retconn them and pretend like it wasn't possible?

 

2. Sharan male channelers: men who can learn are not treated like animals. If most people from the BT are learners, why can the sharan men not be learners trained by demandred and westerners?

 

3. Numbers being off: I place more blame on team Jordan for letting this happen. It is not just RJ's legacy, but it is something they have worked on for so long that they should have cared more and noticed these things.

3a. It is better if you pretend that the missing people wiped each other out early on. It also explains how the seanchan took over in Avi's vision; everyone paid the butcher's bill except them

[Suttree]

1. Tied off gateways: didn't RJ retconn them and pretend like it wasn't possible?

Indeed, that started before BS took over.

[Finnssss22]

I posted this on Mats Arc thread as well but didnt get much feedback.

 

With respect to the Hinderstrap group that came to defend and retake the damming of the river, there were 100 redarms with the townspeople along with Delarn who Mat had saved when they first went into Hinderstrap.  When Mat originally went to Hinderstrap, he only went with a handful of redarms (including Delarn) and the aeis sedai.  Does this mean that he sent the 100 that is now with the townspeople on a suicide mission to initially get the town onboard?

 

Yes. It was stated by Mat in the scene where he mentions Delarn, that it was a volunteer mission and Mat was disappointed that Delarn was one of them because he saved him from that fate in the first place. A fate Delarn himself felt was his destiny.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Finnssss