Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[Elan Tedronai]

I was sort of hoping that out of the 8 that left the two rivers after winter night; Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Thom, Lan and Moriane that at least half wouldn't be at the end. I kind felt that there just wasn't enough emotion to the end. Egwene was surprising  I thought that Rand, Perrin, Nynaeve and Egwene would most likely be at the end out of the rest. And it did shock me that she died and died for a cause.

 

I guess for my hoped for this ending to occur; Lan's desire to not leave malkier to the blight a second time should have been his 'last stand' and I was kind of disappointed that he was told to retreat again. His only role after that was to kill Demandred which that could have easily passed onto Tam rather then Gawyn, Galad then finally Lan. With Lan perhaps something written in to buy the rest time at merrilor time as his excuse for making the last stand but I felt that he should have been dead there, with Nynaeve knowing it but showing strength to not crack at her warders death. Mat to fall and Tuon showing some sorrow over his death, knowingly with child at the time. Gawyn should have died in the previous book. Faile should have died after saving the horn and Olver, I felt that would have been a great ending for her but I guess after being trapped in the dream world in book 3 then by the Shaido at the of 8. Maybe it was too much?. I guess each of us pictures a different ending to the series. A reunion however would have been more entertaining then Rand riding off into the sunset. 

But I think most of us can agree that the ending left way to much to question, whether a planned JK rowling style 200 page epilogue is to follow, which probably would have happened with Jordan, then only time will tell if Sanderson will be doing one.

 

I for one don't rate MoL the best book in the series and probably would push it down into the middle of the books. The ending just didn't satisfy me. 

the authors certanly missed a trick there. A final reunion between the original 5 of emond's field one last time before battle

[Amandera]

 

Callandor was made during the War of Power; RJ said so.

i remembered when RJ said callandor defect was a manufacturing flaw. nice little lie there by rj.

 

it was delibrately made to flaw as i said in my prediction thread!

I don't understand why you (and other people) think that. Random stuff happens in WoT a lot. I mean what the ta'veren needs, the Pattern provides. It could just be that somebody screwed up pretty bad and by coincidence saved the world three thousands years later.

[CTGryffindor]

I was re-reading The Dragon Reborn, and I found a quote from Thom that recognizes what Rand ultimately accepted as true when he chose not to kill the Dark One:

 

"There's always a balance, you know. Good and evil. Light and Shadow. We would not be human if there wasn't a balance."

 

I know that the idea of balance is all over the series, but this one goes the extra step that Rand followed in A Memory or Light by asserting that man has no humanity absent the existence of the Dark One (a/k/a a force of evil that provides an alternative to the Light and therefore the choice necessary to have free will).

[Cybertrolloc]

How many characters can we plausibly come up with to be Nakomi that'd have more foreshadowing and plausibility than Verin? I'm thinking Dobraine is a good bet, did he appear in ToM at all?

[toss the dice]

I just realized this (I dont know how I missed it) and I was wondering if anyone had come up with an answer or if I missed it in the book. What happened to the Tinkers song??? Did they ever find it???

[nitavonne]

I wish Mr. Jordan's notes and explanations would be added to the Encyclopedia. Or that B.S. would answer our questions.

[Terez]

I just realized this (I dont know how I missed it) and I was wondering if anyone had come up with an answer or if I missed it in the book. What happened to the Tinkers song??? Did they ever find it???

 

No, and they never will.

[Aver]

I assumed that it was implied that they would find it since both since both Rand and the Orgier know it now. Sure you could argue that the Orgier even with their long memories still might not know the historical implications of the song and be able to connect that with the the Tinkers search for their song. Rand knows the historical use of the song from his LTT memories which means that he can confirm that it was the same song that was sung in his Rhuidean memories the same memories in which he saw the Tinkers split from the Aiel in search for the song.  

 

So either Rand hates Tinkers and is going to let them search forever or he dies/gets amnesia before he can let them know.

[John Everyman]

 

I was sort of hoping that out of the 8 that left the two rivers after winter night; Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Thom, Lan and Moriane that at least half wouldn't be at the end. I kind felt that there just wasn't enough emotion to the end. Egwene was surprising  I thought that Rand, Perrin, Nynaeve and Egwene would most likely be at the end out of the rest. And it did shock me that she died and died for a cause.

 

I guess for my hoped for this ending to occur; Lan's desire to not leave malkier to the blight a second time should have been his 'last stand' and I was kind of disappointed that he was told to retreat again. His only role after that was to kill Demandred which that could have easily passed onto Tam rather then Gawyn, Galad then finally Lan. With Lan perhaps something written in to buy the rest time at merrilor time as his excuse for making the last stand but I felt that he should have been dead there, with Nynaeve knowing it but showing strength to not crack at her warders death. Mat to fall and Tuon showing some sorrow over his death, knowingly with child at the time. Gawyn should have died in the previous book. Faile should have died after saving the horn and Olver, I felt that would have been a great ending for her but I guess after being trapped in the dream world in book 3 then by the Shaido at the of 8. Maybe it was too much?. I guess each of us pictures a different ending to the series. A reunion however would have been more entertaining then Rand riding off into the sunset. 

But I think most of us can agree that the ending left way to much to question, whether a planned JK rowling style 200 page epilogue is to follow, which probably would have happened with Jordan, then only time will tell if Sanderson will be doing one.

 

I for one don't rate MoL the best book in the series and probably would push it down into the middle of the books. The ending just didn't satisfy me. 

the authors certanly missed a trick there. A final reunion between the original 5 of emond's field one last time before battle

 

Completely agreed.  I would have loved for Rand to have called a meeting with all of characters who left Emond Fields in the beginning.  Mat's plot might have made it impossible, but I'm sure it could have been worked around. 

 

At the very least I wanted Rand to have some words with Nynaeve and Moiraine before they entered Shayol Ghul.  Something acknowledging their efforts as his teachers and friends.  Come on, that would have been easy...

[Valley of Death]

I cannot read 56 pages of DM forums after just reading 900 pages, so sorry if i repeat anyone.

 

I found this book to be great. Yes there were some parts where I just laughed and said to myself, come on Brandon that is a ridiculous like (Avienda your a gem!!! for example). But this book ended this series great for me. I thought Brandon did a great job, just wanted a better Perrin story arc because i didnt think he was that awesome in aMoL.

 

Padan Fain = waste of paper.

Moraine = great beginning, but her and nyn just did nothing for the whole book and I was a little disappointed

Ogier = some of my favorite parts in the whole series. These guys just got my adrenaline going in that battle

All 4 great captains getting compulsed was awesome. Great twists all around

 

People will always complain about writing, timelines, plausibility, etc. And I understand where the criticism is coming from, but it does not ruin the book for me because so much in the book stands out that makes those things seem not a big deal(just my personal preference). So I might be lucky, but to me I just loved the plot, characters, battles, and everything. Great book and Great end to the best series of all time.

 

I know no other series will impact me or entertain me as much as this series did

 

 

RJ thanks for everything, Brandon thanks for finishing, and Team Jordan great work as well

 

And I hope for some outtrigger novels because although the series is over i'll always love getting back into Randland

[goldenking]

I read the book and found it to be absolutely awesome!

There were some things here and there, but overall it just was a good story.

 

One small thing that kept bugging me..

 

Where were those dreadlord Asha'man all the time? There were more than a hundred. We only saw 6 or so together with Taim and 3 at the closure of the river with the Hinderstap guyz :)

 

I hope that more comes out as time goes forth.

[TreeJoe]

So here's my assessment and commentary after spending 16 years reading this series:

 

1. One of the best things I did prior to starting this book was avoid the D.M. forums for ~3 weeks. So much less obsessed about writing quality, so much more enjoyment of the book.

 

2. I don't think Rand was burned out, I think he supercedes channeling. Channeling is an act of tapping a specific power stream and becoming a conduit. Rand stepped out of the pattern and acted as the creator. He manipulated the pattern itself. I think he reached a stage where he no longer hs to act as a conduit, no longer has to tap into the source, he can simply will it. This was very well foreshadowed with his children in Aviendha's dream.

 

3. The vision of the Dark One is spot on in terms of what killing the Dark One would mean. The Garden of Eden always had Evil present. The whole point, in Christian philosophy at least, of having an all powerful God who works alongside the Devil and allows the Devil to exist is that humans are influenced, but have their own free choice. Removing one side altogether is bad news. You can argue this in the WoT verse, as the Age of Legends seems to be quite a happy time pre-Bore. I'm just speaking philosophically I thought it was spot on.

 

4. I got teary-eyed when Mellar was about to cut out Elayne's babes, when Noal came for Olver. Other than that - just excited to read through everything.

 

5. Demandred was awesome and after all the foreshadowing, I am so glad he was taken down the way he was. I loved the duels. I was a little skeptical at the idea that gawyn "bloodknife" blademaster could barely make him sweat, Galad - no bloodknife - was significantly better, and Lan - exhausted - was the best of all by far. But, Lan's mindset played into the same thing that we saw with Tam, Perrin, and even Rand ("Let go").  So that elemental set played well for me.

 

6. Fain was stupid. He gets introduced as Shaisam (stupid), can now anchor his essence somewhere (ok....), but Mashadar can "spear Mat causing him to spasm" but then be perfectly fine.

 

7. Doomseer - worst title in the whole book. Ok, I thought it was brilliant that Min winds up as the new truthspeaker given her ability to see Omens and Tuon's obsession with them. Got it. Nice tie-in. But now she's "Doomseer" and Seanchan's are so superstitious that a deathwatch guard throws off his gauntlet after touching her? Boooo...

 

8. The Aiel's new purpose was....weird to me....they are becoming the equivalent of the U.N.'s peacekeeper force? This is supposed to hold together their purpose? ...

 

9. I actually enjoyed how little purpose moridin actually served. He came down to a man wanting not just death, but the promise of no re-birth. True suicide. This made him surprisingly weak and, frankly, elevated Rand to the level he needed to be at to take on the Dark One.

 

10. Loved Mat the entire book....except the ending. He asks if Tuon ever dices? After spending months with her in the Menagerie? Arggg--ugghhh.

 

.....

 

Few complaints in there, but overall it was brilliant. Rushed, but the last book was always going to be rushed unless it was going to 17 books.

[Cheetaiean]

A... bug, you could call it.

 

So Caemlyn is taken by Trollocs through Waygate, but their forces are always estimated at 'tens of thousands', compared to possibly millions on other fronts.

 

The generals decide to put the most force into that blow, to send the bulk of their forces to take out that force. Why does it take so long, when the Kandor front and the Malkier front have at least 100 000 fighting men each? This means that he Caemlyn front should have like one fifty thousand, since the bulk of the armies were sent there. Instead, the Trollocs (the tens of thousands) in Caemlyn seem to outnumber Elayne's force (of hundreds of thousands). 

 

Anyways, I really enjoyed the book and appreciate the effort put into finishing the series after the death of Robert Jordan.

 

Bela dying was tragic.

 

Lanfear was kind of a misfear, she turns her attention to Perrin!?!?! and wants to take over the world than like disappears...

[dreadlord]

8. The Aiel's new purpose was....weird to me....they are becoming the equivalent of the U.N.'s peacekeeper force? This is supposed to hold together their purpose? ...

Think of it as the Aiel taking the first step to becoming Dashain Aiel again and it might make more sense.

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Who is cadin'sor clad white hair woman who helps Rand when he gets out of the cave?? Did BS answer this in any Q&As? I know it could be Alivia or it could be Nakomi or someone else entirely.. I was hoping BS would clear this though..

[pmtang]

I was re-reading The Dragon Reborn, and I found a quote from Thom that recognizes what Rand ultimately accepted as true when he chose not to kill the Dark One:

 

"There's always a balance, you know. Good and evil. Light and Shadow. We would not be human if there wasn't a balance."

 

I know that the idea of balance is all over the series, but this one goes the extra step that Rand followed in A Memory or Light by asserting that man has no humanity absent the existence of the Dark One (a/k/a a force of evil that provides an alternative to the Light and therefore the choice necessary to have free will).

I would just like to thank you for not using any abbreviations like tDR, DO, aMoL.  It's annoying when you have to stop to think what these abbreviations mean when reading.

[Treebeard]

Felt like you in the beginning but then after a while it becomes second nature

[Arundevanathan]

A couple of thoughts/questions

 

1. Shaidar haran was indeed the dark one, or rather a skin adopted by the dark one to walk the world. I thought is becomes clear when rand looks at the essence of the dark one, Moridin standing there and a "discarded skin" on the ground. Is this obvious to all or am I speculating here?

 

2. The hinderstap situation: wouldn't using the hinderstap people in the battle ensure that everyone they kill including Trollocs, sharans etc. all become part of the hinderstarp loop? Imagine hinderstap every morning with the townspeople, the redarms, trollocs and channellers all waking up. Sounds a bit comical. Is this an oversight from the author or is there is a logical explanation for this?

[Arundevanathan]

I just realized this (I dont know how I missed it) and I was wondering if anyone had come up with an answer or if I missed it in the book. What happened to the Tinkers song??? Did they ever find it???

 

I thought it was clear that Loial rediscovered it during his battle scene when he made even the polearms sprout to life. It is assumed that at some point of time in the future, knowledge of the song would spread and tinkers would find it.

[Cheetaiean]

A couple of thoughts/questions

 

 

2. The hinderstap situation: wouldn't using the hinderstap people in the battle ensure that everyone they kill including Trollocs, sharans etc. all become part of the hinderstarp loop? Imagine hinderstap every morning with the townspeople, the redarms, trollocs and channellers all waking up. Sounds a bit comical. Is this an oversight from the author or is there is a logical explanation for this?

 

To answer your question: I believe only if the certain creatures are killed on the territory of Hinderstap does the 'rebirth' occur.

However it also cracks me up to think of Trollocs and villagers respawning over and over and killing each other.

[MauricXe]

I would think the Hinderstrap business is done since the pattern isn't falling apart (caused by the DO's influence)

 

I'm starting to think Nakomi is Verin. Her comments at the end, if that was Nakomi [edit for clarity] and I see no reason to think it wasn't, don't seem to mesh with a random hero of the horn. She seemed a bit too knowledgeable to be a random HoH.  Verin as a HoH fits...and a long shot being Verin having bodyswapped herself. She seemed to understand the nature of the last battle in her conversation with Egwene and I suspect she knows more about what Rand had to do....somehow.

[Apoc81]

I just realized this (I dont know how I missed it) and I was wondering if anyone had come up with an answer or if I missed it in the book. What happened to the Tinkers song??? Did they ever find it???
I thought it was clear that Loial rediscovered it during his battle scene when he made even the polearms sprout to life. It is assumed that at some point of time in the future, knowledge of the song would spread and tinkers would find it.

I dont believe the Tinker song has anything to do with Ogier Treesinging.

[Graendal probably did it]

A couple of thoughts/questions

 

1. Shaidar haran was indeed the dark one, or rather a skin adopted by the dark one to walk the world. I thought is becomes clear when rand looks at the essence of the dark one, Moridin standing there and a "discarded skin" on the ground. Is this obvious to all or am I speculating here?

 

2. The hinderstap situation: wouldn't using the hinderstap people in the battle ensure that everyone they kill including Trollocs, sharans etc. all become part of the hinderstarp loop? Imagine hinderstap every morning with the townspeople, the redarms, trollocs and channellers all waking up. Sounds a bit comical. Is this an oversight from the author or is there is a logical explanation for this?

 

I thought the dead people in Hinderstap only come back, if they die when they actually in the village? As the battle took place outside of the village the Ones killed will not be added to the walking dead. I might be wrong on this however.

[masaru]

I decided to ask BS the Nakomi question in a slightly different way on twitter.

 

 

Me:

did RJ say that Nakomi should be included? You said she was "deep in RJ's notes" but wondering if it was up in the air?

 

 

BS:

 I said something deep in the notes made me include her. I have not said if she herself was in the notes or not.

 

So that sounds like BS basically invented the character based on the notes. Obviously this raises the follow-up question of what part of the notes, but I know he won't answer that one. Still... it frames the Nakomi question a little better. FWIW I don't subscribe to the Verin theory. 

 

It definitely pays to ask about stuff from different angles, though.

[Wolf505]

 

 

 

I just realized this (I dont know how I missed it) and I was wondering if anyone had come up with an answer or if I missed it in the book. What happened to the Tinkers song??? Did they ever find it???

I thought it was clear that Loial rediscovered it during his battle scene when he made even the polearms sprout to life. It is assumed that at some point of time in the future, knowledge of the song would spread and tinkers would find it.

 

I dont believe the Tinker song has anything to do with Ogier Treesinging.

I posted this earlier, but I'll post it again.  I think we get a hint of it when Rand visits Tuon in Ebou Dar and makes the garden bloom.  Mat hears him singing under his breath and asks him about it to which Rand basically responds "not now."  I'm guessing that one of the things Rand will do in his wanderings is visit the Tinkers and pass along the Song.