A way around the three oaths (a fun type of thread )

[he who comes with a bong]

So with the three oaths we have the main one that i think serioulsy puts the Aes sedi at a huge dissadvantge is the one about not being able to kill ppl with the power.  have never liked that one my self. I just thought of one way around the oath its self. Have them learn the sword.

 

Since they live for such a long time any ways they woul dhave an exrta advantage if they were able to spend a little amount of time after there final test before they leave the tower and go out in to the world. Make them take 20 year sor so to spend on nothing but the sword until they were a blademaster. The they would be able to defend themselves far better than with the power, it would make sense to me. then once they felt in danger they could then go and use the power in tandem with the sword.  Almost liek the equilivant of a women AshaMan.

 

so what can you all think of to get around the three oaths?

[TootThatHorn]

I thought along the same lines as well, or have them learn to shoot a bow or whatever.  I've also wondered, and assumed however, that they probably couldn't wrap someone up in air though then walk up and stab them, probably would still fall under the oath.  However with how times are now, I would probably be a little paranoid and any stranger that throws a dirty look my way I would probably hand out stilling weaves like loaves of bread during the depression; you know, just in case.

[BFG]

they could work on feeling in danger all the time :)  Then they could use the Power (Joline in KoD)

[Kamin_Majere]

screw getting around the 3 oaths, i'd use them to my advantage better.

 

"Cant use the one power as a weapon except against shadowspawn, dark friends, or in defense of own life or warders"

 

I would channel balefire at everyone i meet... if the flow stops then they are a good person, if it goes through then they are shadow sworn :)

 

 

 

(yes overly simplistic, but this is a for fun thread)

[TootThatHorn]

I don't think it works like that though, the one power isn't all knowing.  I think rather your own mind wouldn't allow you to form the weave to begin with unless you genuinely thought them a danger.

[Danjaman]

I recall one of the forsaken pointing out a flaw in the three oaths was that it was bound to what you personally believe (i.e. you can tell a lie insofar that you don't know it's a lie).

Extending that idea, it would theoretically be possible - through intense hypnosis and psychotherapy - to brainwash yourself into believing that everyone is a darkfriend, or that swords are tools, not weapons.

[Kamin_Majere]

I don't think it works like that though, the one power isn't all knowing.  I think rather your own mind wouldn't allow you to form the weave to begin with unless you genuinely thought them a danger.

 

I know i was just poking fun at the whole situation.  The 3 oaths are about the biggest crock in the whole series.  And about as easy to get around as telling someone something then saying "haha had my fingers crossed"

 

I recall one of the forsaken pointing out a flaw in the three oaths was that it was bound to what you personally believe (i.e. you can tell a lie insofar that you don't know it's a lie).

 

Extending that idea, it would theoretically be possible - through intense hypnosis and psychotherapy - to brainwash yourself into believing that everyone is a darkfriend, or that swords are tools, not weapons.

 

Yep, hence the Logain Situation.  I think he was lying through his teeth because of what Suian told him and thus was able to "convince" the other AS that it was truth so they could speak it.

 

 

 

the 3 oaths are just bad ideas all around

[Whizbang]

Instead of the sword, learn the staff.  As per the Mat v Gawyn and Galad, the staff can both be deadly and effective, and is much easier to use to defend from multiple attackers.  Also, the added range lets you keep your enemies farther away, giving you the moment you need to wrap them in air to disable them.  Also, it is not immediately seen as deadly or threatening.  The Three Oaths were put in place because people saw AS as threatening.  Giving them swords would counteract this.  A staff, though, is just a stick, really.  What is so dangerous about that, right?

[Bobwheel]

I recall one of the forsaken pointing out a flaw in the three oaths was that it was bound to what you personally believe (i.e. you can tell a lie insofar that you don't know it's a lie).

 

Extending that idea, it would theoretically be possible - through intense hypnosis and psychotherapy - to brainwash yourself into believing that everyone is a darkfriend, or that swords are tools, not weapons.

 

 

Which is exactly what happened when Elaida declared Egwene to be a Darkfriend. She had no proof, she clearly isn't a darkfriend. She just had the insane belief that if she was able to stand the beatings and defy Elaida then she must be a Darkfriend.

[herid]

I recall one of the forsaken pointing out a flaw in the three oaths was that it was bound to what you personally believe (i.e. you can tell a lie insofar that you don't know it's a lie).

 

Extending that idea, it would theoretically be possible - through intense hypnosis and psychotherapy - to brainwash yourself into believing that everyone is a darkfriend, or that swords are tools, not weapons.

Perhaps something like this will happen. Egwene had a dream in TDR ch 25 about the Seanchan collaring a long line of Aes Sedai and forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower. Tuon also thought in tGS that there might be a way around the oaths based on something Mat said (no idea which remark by Mat she meant though). So it's pretty safe to say that the Seanchan will figure something out.  It could also be something as simple as putting the captive Aes Sedai on the front lines and have other damane next to them blast at the White Tower. As soon as there is any kind of retaliation, the Aes Sedai will feel in danger and be able to use the power as a weapon the way Joline, Teslyn and Edesina did in KoD.

[Ozzie_aiel]

Make a club of Air and smack guys hard between their legs with it. When word gets around the only people bothering you would be masochists.

[Orderofolde]

So with the three oaths we have the main one that i think serioulsy puts the Aes sedi at a huge dissadvantge is the one about not being able to kill ppl with the power.  have never liked that one my self. I just thought of one way around the oath its self. Have them learn the sword.

 

Since they live for such a long time any ways they woul dhave an exrta advantage if they were able to spend a little amount of time after there final test before they leave the tower and go out in to the world. Make them take 20 year sor so to spend on nothing but the sword until they were a blademaster. The they would be able to defend themselves far better than with the power, it would make sense to me. then once they felt in danger they could then go and use the power in tandem with the sword.  Almost liek the equilivant of a women AshaMan.

 

so what can you all think of to get around the three oaths?

There is another simple way that some of the women recently worked out though I don't know if they will notice the implications, having to do with Mat's Ter'angreal medallion.  They can't use the power to kill, but say they hurl a spear or a rock with the power, if they are of a mindset that it isn't breaking the oath, one's perception will allow this if they believe it.  Same reason they can lie, if they repeat a lie someone told them and they believe it.  That is the basis of the failure of the oaths.  I'm waiting to see the part where they realize that the oath of not making a weapon of the power for one man to kill another doesn't hold to Trollocs and Halfmen, and start churning out some neat weapons.

[wotfan4472]

The Aes Sedai will start making weapons once Perrin meets with Egwene and she sees his hammer. She will be upset, until the Wise Ones and Asha' man with Perrin makes her see that she has no jurisdiction over the Wise Ones... DEFINETELY NOT over the Asha' man, while Rand will encourage the Asha' man to make more weapons.... quite fitting really. Only 5 or 6 more weeks to find out!!!!

[Mr Ares]

I wish people would stop saying AS can lie if they believe it. Believing it is what means it isn't a lie. Lies are intentional falsehoods. Saying something which you believe but which turns out to be untrue is you being mistaken, not lying.

[Hagazussa]

I would channel balefire at everyone i meet... if the flow stops then they are a good person, if it goes through then they are shadow sworn :)

 

The way it work is not that the flows stops but that the Aes Sedai will be unable to cast it in the first place. If she is convinced that Joe the plumber is out to kill her she can balefire him all she wants. The oaths have everything to do with personal perception. If an Aes Sedai say, oh yes there are oranges on the table and she have been mistaken they are apples she will not die, as long as she think she is following the oath and is acting in good faith all is well.

 

I had a debate about this a while ago about using the oath rod to deal with male channelers in a far less devastating way then gentling. Just have them swear to never harm anyone with the Power for example and the problem should be solved, even if they go insane they can not harm anyone, except as was pointed out to me, that sweet innocent village over there, it just need to become hotter, that will be better for everyone so it go up in flames, if the man was far enough gone and believed he did not harm anyone he could still do it, it would just be about his perception.

 

The three oaths are bad ideas, but at the time when they where adopted they where the only choice, the world was turning against the White Tower so unless they did something to put the rest of the world at ease they would be taken down at worse or completely isolated at best, so the oaths where a way to placate the rest of the population, not something the Aes Sedai at the time themselves wanted.

[elric]

dont lie:

 

just add "as ppl say" or something like that before EVERY sentence , ppl will say anything so it not a lue :)

 

dont kill:

so go for incapacitating :)

come patient are still alive , right ? :))

 

power weapon:

 

make power tools

2H blacksmith hammer cough PERRIN cough :)))

cycles

SCYTHE -> AS of DEATh :)))))

[Hagazussa]

dont lie:

 

just add "as ppl say" or something like that before EVERY sentence , ppl will say anything so it not a lue :)

 

Don't lie that is a easy one, you can say nearly anything and not technically speak a like by hinting, adding things like in popular opinion or just lead people to make assumptions. Some would say this pen is green, is perfectly legit even if it is blue, some people would say that.

 

dont kill:

so go for incapacitating :)

come patient are still alive , right ? :))

 

This do not work, the oath is not do not kill it is not to use the Power as a weapon, the line however about what an Aes Sedai can do here is a bit fuzzy, tying someone up with air is not using the Power as a weapon but I suspect knocking them over the head with a club on Air Taim style would be.

 

 

make power tools

2H blacksmith hammer cough PERRIN cough :)))

cycles

SCYTHE -> AS of DEATh :)))))

 

Here I think intent comes into the picture. If you are making a tool then all is well, but if you are making a tool so that it can be used as a weapon then that will not work for then you are making a weapon you are just shaping it as a tool.

[Kamin_Majere]

Actually the weapon one is easy enough to get around.

 

"Make no weapon for one man to kill another" The oath specifically mentions man killing man.

 

Just make the weapons for a woman.  And it fits quite well with them basically lying through their teeth by skirting truth just enough to get around it. I mean they raised Egwene to the big seat the same way.  I mean they took the law as written and said "screw it we can do anything we want because it doesn't say we cant"  So make a ton of weapons for women, they dont know who will end up getting them.

[Tyler Glembo]

I'm not a fan of AS learning weapons, but couldn't you get around the three oaths in the same way AS get around Mat's medallion? In other words, use the power to fling a sword at someone's head. Then ask yourself, what killed them, the sword, or the power? Well, the sword obviously. It doesn't take much to believe it because it is a slippery slope argument.

[Hagazussa]

Actually the weapon one is easy enough to get around.

 

"Make no weapon for one man to kill another" The oath specifically mentions man killing man.

 

Just make the weapons for a woman.  And it fits quite well with them basically lying through their teeth by skirting truth just enough to get around it. I mean they raised Egwene to the big seat the same way.  I mean they took the law as written and said "screw it we can do anything we want because it doesn't say we cant"  So make a ton of weapons for women, they dont know who will end up getting them.

 

No it do not work that way. Raising Egwene is a bit different situation that exploited legal loopholes, to be able to find a loophole in the three oaths they have to believe in it, it is not enough to just do political maneuvering or throwing out the law, they are bound by magick to not do the things the oaths forbid that is a bit more different to get around. Now most of the time when someone say man, they mean man as in mankind as in a human, but yes sure perhaps they could get around it by making a weapon for a woman but then they had to be sure that only women used it. Just making a weapon intended for women would not prevent a man from picking it up and using it to kill another and so it would be prevented by the oath.

 

I'm not a fan of AS learning weapons, but couldn't you get around the three oaths in the same way AS get around Mat's medallion? In other words, use the power to fling a sword at someone's head. Then ask yourself, what killed them, the sword, or the power? Well, the sword obviously. It doesn't take much to believe it because it is a slippery slope argument.

 

I do not think that will work either, if someone shoots someone with their gun would you argue that the gun is not a weapon as it is the bullet that kills? Using the Power to throw something at someone but not touching that person with the Power directly is still using the Power as a weapon just like a gun is the weapon even if it is the bullet that kills.

[Kamin_Majere]

 

No it do not work that way. Raising Egwene is a bit different situation that exploited legal loopholes, to be able to find a loophole in the three oaths they have to believe in it, it is not enough to just do political maneuvering or throwing out the law, they are bound by magick to not do the things the oaths forbid that is a bit more different to get around. Now most of the time when someone say man, they mean man as in mankind as in a human, but yes sure perhaps they could get around it by making a weapon for a woman but then they had to be sure that only women used it. Just making a weapon intended for women would not prevent a man from picking it up and using it to kill another and so it would be prevented by the oath

 

To AS the 3 oaths work exactly like that.  If they cared one thing about them they wouldn't take every possible chance to get as close to ignoring them as they do.  The 3 oaths only work so far as the AS let them, and they seem to take a perverse pleasure in warping them as far as they can.

 

The only reason they don't make weapons for women to kill women or women to kill men is because its ingrained in them as a taboo.

 

The way AS treat the 3 oaths make them less than meaningless.  I mean following the 3 oaths perfectly and just stretching them out you have this sort of insane situation

AS to noble "I speak as truth, I will never kill you"

AS then creates spear for serving maid and using the power beats her half to death and sticking her in a box until she breaks mentally (not used as a weapon just punishing the poor girl for not doing what she is told) until she is ready to kill the noble for the AS.

AS standing over dead noble "told you i would never kill you"

 

Out of all the things the AS did that have screwed them as an institution the 3 oaths are among the top bad ideas they have ever had.

[Hagazussa]

To AS the 3 oaths work exactly like that.  If they cared one thing about them they wouldn't take every possible chance to get as close to ignoring them as they do.  The 3 oaths only work so far as the AS let them, and they seem to take a perverse pleasure in warping them as far as they can.

 

I am not saying that they do not want to find a way around the oaths, I am saying that the oaths can not be ignored the way a law can since they magickally bind them to follow them and a law can just be ignored if one either is in a situation where no one find out or you just do not give a shit about the consequences. And Aes Sedai is incapable of going directly against the thee oaths, and if she is somehow put in a position where she break one she will die, to get around them she have to find a loophole, they can not just be ignored.

 

The only reason they don't make weapons for women to kill women or women to kill men is because its ingrained in them as a taboo.

 

No it is because they are not able to since a man can just as easily pick up that weapon.

 

The way AS treat the 3 oaths make them less than meaningless.  I mean following the 3 oaths perfectly and just stretching them out you have this sort of insane situation

AS to noble "I speak as truth, I will never kill you"

AS then creates spear for serving maid and using the power beats her half to death and sticking her in a box until she breaks mentally (not used as a weapon just punishing the poor girl for not doing what she is told) until she is ready to kill the noble for the AS.

AS standing over dead noble "told you i would never kill you"

 

Well she can not make that spear but everything else in your example she can do yes, and that makes perfect sense. The Aes Sedai did not create the three oaths to be noble they did so because they had no choice, their Amyrlin had left them in a bind and no one trusted them anymore so they had to find a way to placate the rest of the world, and they off course wanted to do so in a way that limited themselves as little as possible.

 

Out of all the things the AS did that have screwed them as an institution the 3 oaths are among the top bad ideas they have ever had

 

And what should they have done when most of the nobles and nations of the world stood ready to lynch them? It is not like the Aes Sedai wanted the oaths, they wanted the trust of the rest of the world back and it was the only way they found to do just that.

[Kamin_Majere]

I still think they can make the weapons.  If the other two oaths are as flexible and worthless as they are i'm pretty sure that one is as well.  In much the same way they can tell a lie if they believe it the truth, they can make a weapon they want to give it to a woman.  I fail to believe somehow the weapon oath magically works in all situations where the other two are next to worthless.

 

As to what they should have done?  Gave it some time and then slowly work themselves back into the world.  Women that live for 400-600 years have more than enough time to spend waiting patiently for things like that to die down.  Eventually people would see having advisors that have 300+ years of experience would be worth while to have.

 

The problem is they started thinking themselves above the world instead of a part of it, and in a failed attempt to "prove" themselves better than common people they said 3 oaths on a magic stick (that could have been anything because its not like the common people could prove the oath rod was anything but a stick) and then INSTANTLY started to figure out ways around the very oaths they spoke and boast about.  

 

This lead to no one believing anything that AS said or did because if you twist the truth enough times no one expects anything but that from you.

If someone punches you and only a magic oath keeps you from killing them with the power then obviously you would strike at them with it otherwise.

and

If an oath keeps you from making weapons then with out surely you would be a horrible tyrant or arms dealer.

 

But instead they act holier than thou with their "most sacred oaths" yet take EVERY chance they can get to disregard them as far as possible.  So instead of working to regain trust (which again 400-600 years is PLENTY of time for that) they give up half their lives for what they think amounts to an easy button into every ones good graces... and imagine that it failed

 

 

hrm... this got way more serious than i had wanted it to.  Please ignore anything that seems antagonistic, i dont mean for it to sound that way I'm just failing at putting it forth in a way that doesnt 

[Whizbang]

Once we found out that the Oat Rod cuts the expected life span in half, I have been wondering what happened to some of the elderly AS who took it for the first time.  Here we are, a tower full of AS, some of them quite old.  Then Artur Hawkwing comes along, shit goes sour and so the AS decide to use the Oath Rod.  BAM! Dozens, if not hundreds, of AS who are in the latter half of their lives start dropping.  Since it take a few years for the ageless look to appear, you can assume it takes equally long for the aged AS to wither and die, but wouldn't that be suspicious at the time?  Everyone is happily living to 600+ years, and suddenly no one is able to go past 300?

[Knivy]

It could be that they were being killed quickly enough to keep their attention elsewhere..