Why hasn't the Dark One Retaint Saidin?

[Bobwheel]

I've been trying to figure out why the Dark One hasn't just Retainted Saidin. It's not like there is another Shadar Logoth lying around to cleanse it again, or for that matter another working Chodan Kal.

 

 

My only possible theory for this could be that it requires a Ta'veren channeling at him. Just as there are certain things you can only do to channeler's like turn them evil or certain things you can only do in Shayol Ghoul.

 

This theory would also explain why in 2000 years the Dark One hasn't tried tainting Saidar.

 

 

Anyone else have a better theory or has RJ\BS ever explained this?

[BFG]

My understanding is - although I have no quotes to back it up - is that when LTT used saidin to seal away the DO saidin had to touch the DO and this provided the connection that the DO needed in order to taint it again.

 

I'm not sure why he hasn't ordered/compelled another male channeler to do the same again, but I guess it's because the seal's still holding enough to prevent this.

 

EDIT: Wahoo, first ninja :)

[lolguy26]

the DO tainted saidan when LTT and his 100 companions tried sealing the bore using saidan and they had to touch or use something so that they could place the seal, and the DO tainted it as a backlash.

 

since no one has channel at the DO yet he cant taint it

 

(i hope that answered your question)

[lolguy26]

and ninjad by BFG

[Bobwheel]

I know how he tainted it the first time. But it seems trivial to me for the Dark One to order a male Forsaken/Dark Friend Channeler to go to Shayol Ghoul and touch him with Saidin so he can taint it again.

 

For that matter why doesn't he do the same with Saidar and have a female channeler touch him with Saidar so he can taint that too. He seems to be able to affect the pattern pretty strongly right now. We've seen people just disintegrate, food spoil, palaces and places rearranging, and the dead walking.

 

I would think channeling at him would be pretty trivial, again unless he needs a Ta'veren channeling at him to taint Saidin.

[Barid Bel Medar]

INTERVIEW: Dec 9th, 2002

Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A

QUESTION

 

Is there a reason the Dark One could not or would not re-taint saidin?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

The conditions would have to be exactly right. Those conditions were set up while the seals were being placed on the Bore. The chances that exactly those conditions would occur again are fairly small. And that is saying that it was a volitional act rather than a side-effect of trying to stop the seals from being placed. After all, if the Dark One couldtaint saidin at will, why could he not taint saidar as well, and why would he not have done so?

 

 

[Whizbang]

I am not sure I'd want to be the one to channel directly at the DO. The 100 companions went mad instantly. The rest of the male AS went mad over time, but the 100 went bonkers as soon as the backlash occurred. I don't imagine the protection that the male forsaken enjoy would protect from the full brunt of the backlash event. At least I, as a Forsaken, would not want to risk it.

[Ozzie_aiel]

I think I read somewhere channelling near the Pit of Doom was hazardous to your health anyway. And I'm not sure tainting saidin was a conscious act or a side effect from hitting the DO with that much of the One Power.

[Tsukibana]

If we think of the seals not as locks on a prison door, but rather as shackles around the DO's essence, like vessels containing the DO's influence,

stopping it from seeping into this world, then the backlash that tainted the 100 instantly would be like the mouthful of gasoline you get (if you are not careful)

when trying to siphon said gasoline. I think the 100 had to reach out and PULL on the dark one with Saidin in order to make the "vessels" (Seals). It was that massive

containment of DO essence that weakens the seals. rember, in the AoL, it took YEARS for the DO's influence to be felt, but around each time a seal broke, the world got

screwed up (winter, summer, miasma) awfully quick, almost like a flood gate broke, releasing a surge in the DOs influence. As for why the Forsaken haven't tried

again, its simple: they are strong, but as strong as 100 other channelers operating in unison?? Rand needed the chodan kal, Nynaeve, the female key, and 12+ hours of work to do it...

[Ozzie_aiel]

Or hes busy playing solitaire...:-P

[Bobwheel]

If we think of the seals not as locks on a prison door, but rather as shackles around the DO's essence, like vessels containing the DO's influence,

stopping it from seeping into this world, then the backlash that tainted the 100 instantly would be like the mouthful of gasoline you get (if you are not careful)

when trying to siphon said gasoline. I think the 100 had to reach out and PULL on the dark one with Saidin in order to make the "vessels" (Seals). It was that massive

containment of DO essence that weakens the seals. rember, in the AoL, it took YEARS for the DO's influence to be felt, but around each time a seal broke, the world got

screwed up (winter, summer, miasma) awfully quick, almost like a flood gate broke, releasing a surge in the DOs influence. As for why the Forsaken haven't tried

again, its simple: they are strong, but as strong as 100 other channelers operating in unison?? Rand needed the chodan kal, Nynaeve, the female key, and 12+ hours of work to do it...

 

Well we don't actually know what the 100 companions did. They could have all just been his homies guarding Lews Therin's back while he did all the channeling. Heck some of them must have been fighting the forsaken unless they where all just standing there while the prison was being sealed.

 

Or hes busy playing solitaire...:-P

 

That would truly be evil. Perhapse the Dark One is so confident in his final victory that he has broken out the card deck?

A thought that just occurred to me. If the Dark One has had thousands upon thousands of tries to win and seen thousands upon thousands of possible ways to beat him you would think he would have planned for every possibility and won by now? I mean presumably there is only 1 way to seal up his prison and 1 way to put a hole in it.

[Tsukibana]

you are right, about the Companions. Most of them were fighting most assuredly, due to the male limit on circle size with no women, however, didn't Strike on SG say there were SOME women? otherwise, no circles. and no circles means no bad-ass amount of One Power being wielded... forgot about that limit. Im off to muse.

[Whizbang]

I am pretty sure there were no women, just the 100 men. This always puzzled me. I seem to remember that LTT insisted that more power was not the answer (hence not using the CK to close the Bore, as was planned by some). So, either LTT forged the seals all by himself, or him plus 6 others did it while the rest dealt with the Forsaken (remember that at this time, there were more than just 13. I don't remember the number, but I do know most of them were killed, with only a handful being trapped).

 

 

Interview: Apr 5th, 1996

 

Balticon XXX - Bill Garrett (Paraphrased)

Bill Garrett

 

 

The Strike at Shayol Ghul

Many people have asked about a short piece of writing called "The Strike at Shayol Ghul". Most people want to know: "Is it actually real, and if so, what does it say?"

Robert Jordan

 

 

First, it is real. Robert Jordan wrote it and it was included in the BaltiCon printed program. It's about four pages long in printed form, and is now available on the Web courtesy of Tor Books. Copies of the convention program, which includes the story, may still be available. See Colette Schleifer's announcement for information.

The free availability of The Strike at Shayol Ghul on the eeb makes this summary rather superfluous (I wrote it when Strike was only available in printed form, in very limited quantity) but I'm keeping it here for completeness. Now on with my summary.

In "The Strike at Shayol Ghul", Jordan describes the events leading up to the Sealing of the Bore from the perspective of a Third Age historian (at about the time of the story) who discovered some fragmented manuscripts that were written shortly after the Breaking. The single biggest fact revealed is that the during the War of the Shadow, the Aes Sedai were considering two alternate plans for defeating the Dark One.

Lews Therin proposed that the Dark One be resealed in his prison by plugging the Bore. The plug would be inserted by thirteen linked male and female channelers and would be held in place by the seven seals, which were focus points of the weaving. 20,000 soldiers would accompany them to Shayol Ghul, where the Bore could most be sensed. Lews Therin's plan had supporters and opponents. Opponents argued that the Seals required precise positioning, and that any slight error would tear the Bore open wider.

The alternate plan, which also had its share of supporters and detractors, was to build two large sa'angreal (one for saidin, one for saidar) and use them to build a new prison around the old one for the Dark One. The sa'angreal were so powerful that special "key" ter'angreal had to be constructed for channelers to use them safely. Opponents of this plan expressed concern that the sa'angreal could fall into the control of channelers following the Shadow or be misused accidentally by channelers serving the Light. Either way, the sa'angreal were expected to be powerful enough to destroy the world and beyond. Opponents also worried that while the sa'angreal might enable the building of a wall strong enough to contain the Dark One's strength right then, the Dark One was gradually chipping away at the Bore and gaining more power in the world. At some point, he might become powerful enough to tear down the new wall.

Supporters of each plan began preparation, even though the Aes Sedai as a whole failed to reach a consensus.

Latra Posae, an outspoken female Aes Sedai, considered Lews Therin's plan so dangerous that she organized support amongst the female Aes Sedai against it. In fact, she obtained the unanimous agreement of every female AS of significant power—in other words, every female Aes Sedai who could possibly be asked to assist in the force that would place the seven seals into the Bore to seal it shut. They believed this effectively halted Lews Therin's plan, as the men who supported him could not link without any cooperating women. (It was believed that correct placement of the seals required a linked group of the most powerful male and female channelers.)

While the Aes Sedai were fighting over which plan should be used, the Shadow advanced rapidly. Lews Therin decided that something had to be done right away, so he covertly organized 113 male channelers who supported his plan (they were later called the Hundred Companions, a slight miscount) and over 10,000 soldiers who were also loyal to him. The force stormed Shayol Ghul, when all thirteen Forsaken were there, and put the Seals into place.

At the moment of the resealing, the Dark One drove all of the surviving Hundred Companions (about 68, at that point) instantly insane. The Dark One also tainted saidin, although this wasn't discovered until after hundreds of other male channelers had been driven mad from it.

Reads the introduction of the manuscript: "Whoever reads this, if any remain to read it, weep for us who have no more tears. Pray for us who are damned alive."

Footnote

 

A version of The Strike at Shayol Ghul appears in The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time (aka the BWB).

[Whizbang]

Also, it was only men that made the Seal, because otherwise the female half of the source would have been tainted too.

 

Interview: Apr, 2003

 

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

Question

 

Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

Robert Jordan

 

 

Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something...I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul...there was a great division at the time—I don’t know if all of you have read it...or have none of you read it?

QUESTION

 

Yes, yes.

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the...and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord”], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

[Bobwheel]

Also, it was only men that made the Seal, because otherwise the female half of the source would have been tainted too.

 

Interview: Apr, 2003

 

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

Question

 

Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?

Robert Jordan

 

 

Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something...I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul...there was a great division at the time—I don’t know if all of you have read it...or have none of you read it?

QUESTION

 

Yes, yes.

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the...and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [it was actually the “Fateful Concord”], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

 

Ya and since Men cannot make a circle I go back to it was probably just Lews Therin who made the seals, Or yes possibly him and 6 others if it required 1 person per seal. Also if the art cover is any indication Rand is only bringing 2 others. Nynaeve and Moiraine.

[Cybertrolloc]

Strike at Shayol Ghul: "One of the plans for ending the war quickly, proposed by Lews Therin, centered around a direct attack on the Bore itself. Seven "focus points" (there seems no better translation from the old tongue, although they are obviously the Seals of Legend) were constructed of cuendillar."

 

Never got why we can't just take this at face value...(yes, it ruins a couple theories).

[rand4747]

You can do with individuals what a circle can do but not as easy because it requires absolute precision to get the flows working together. its mentioned in one of the later books somewhere I think. One person in a circle of a man and woman for the easiest example, can weave the saidin and saidar seperate to each other, but because its done by 1 person it can be very precise. Now it is likely also possible to do it that way with just woman in a circle.bu theres no evidence of it that I know of.

[Tsukibana]

Nice info. It does kind of damnpen my theory, doesn't it? I always thought that the taint on Saidin was unintentional, from it having to touch the DO. Maybe the seals still absorbed the DOs influence, and that is why they weakened. But if it didnt require the immense amount of the OP that I thought it did, we could ask, forget the re-taint of Saidin, why not have Semirhage taint Saidar????

[Tsukibana]

Strike at Shayol Ghul: "One of the plans for ending the war quickly, proposed by Lews Therin, centered around a direct attack on the Bore itself. Seven "focus points" (there seems no better translation from the old tongue, although they are obviously the Seals of Legend) were constructed of cuendillar."

 

Never got why we can't just take this at face value...(yes, it ruins a couple theories).

Never take a historian's words at face value, especially when the events are pre-Breaking :)

[Tsukibana]

an add-on: Even if the backlash instanly kills/drives the one to make the seals, DO could just reach out and bring them back. Yeah. re-incarnation is only for his favorites, but Im sure doing this would earn some BROWNIE (hehe) points.

[Whizbang]

Maybe the OP does actually cause the DO discomfort or pain?  That would explain why he doesn't order his female minions to taint Saidar, or the males to re-taint Saidin.  Aside from the quote from RJ saying the conditions have to be exactly right, maybe the DO does not like the OP touching him.  He is opposite the Creator, right?  The OP is from the Creator.  It would be logical the DO is allergic to the OP in some way.

[fosterrl]

My theory about why the DO can't retaint Saidin or taint Saidar is that it would have to be done the same way it was done the first time and that would imprison him again.  I would imagine that the Creator would have made it so that the DO couldn't taint the One Power so easily as just someone channeling at him.  

[KrisAnton]

He can't taint it because there is nothing touching him in his prison. Once Saidin or saidar touch it during the reselling, he will have a chance to strike back.

[Sightblinder'sMinder]

As has been mentioned, the taint on saidin was a side-effect of touching the DO with it. 

 

But, the way I see it, the DO isn't going to "unmake" the world. Why not? Because the Dark One is the Wheel of Time. He is the Lord of the Grave; weaver of the Pattern. 

 

The threat of unmaking the world is simply a means by which to turn the Wheel. The "Last Battle" is a part of the Pattern. It's fought the exact same way in every cycle (i.e. the Dragon's birth and rebirth). That's where Moridin's logic failed him, i.e. "The Light has to win every time, but the Dark One has to win only once". The catch is, the Light does win every time. Nothing ever changes.  

 

Point being, the Dark One only makes Tarmon Gai'don a Last Battle rather than the Last Battle. In order for Tarmon Gai'don to be the Last Battle, there must be some kind of extraneous threat apart from the DO. Enter Padan Fain. The Dark One is only playing his role in the Pattern (i.e. the aggressor), but Padan Fain's thread is out of whack. That is the real threat. Rand & the DO have does this a thousand times before. Padan Fain has not. And the power he has garnered from Mordeth (an evil outside the Pattern) threatens to overwhelm both the Dragon & the Dark One together (convenient that mashadar takes the form of fog and can fill up a battlefield like Tarmon Gai'don... wouldn't you say?). 

 

At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to you... until Sanderson upends me. 

[Suttree]

At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to you... until Sanderson upends me. 

RJ's quotes already do that. We know for certain the DO's goals, we know it's possible for him to win and we know that he is not the "weaver of the pattern".