Chapter 2 Audio Available on Tor

[Shaidar]

Where were you forced to listen to it. Don't like it? Wait until January.

 

I knew someone would make a Captain Obvious comment like this.

[MasterAblar]

Hmm interesting, could you share with us what Lothair's insightful observations on the WT and AS are? You know aside from them all being DF's and evil. Seeing as how they started out as a priesthood dedicated to proselytizing against Darkfriends I'm curious to see where you stumbled across his heretofore unpublished in depth study of AS. Do tell.

 

I'm not sure, but isn't that just how the Children of the Light interpreted his teachings? I thought his original idea was basically "absolute power corrupts absolutely". Which is definitely something that can be attributed to the Aes Sedai. That is I don't think he ever said that Aes Sedai and all others who use the power are darkfriends just that the One Power can lead to corruption and the shadow. At the very least, Galad seems to believe he was a great man, and Galad has been around Aes Sedai too much to believe a blanket accusation that they're all darkfriends.

 

Where were you forced to listen to it. Don't like it? Wait until January.

 

I knew someone would make a Captain Obvious comment like this.

 

Well you sort of set yourself up for it.

 

That said I don't like audiobooks either. I'd much rather have the books in my hands.

[David Selig]

Galad, who grew up with AS and spent time in the WT was fascinated by the original writings of Lothair. I think that the modern CotL are a very zealous corrupt group compared to the original intent - but that does not change that I think Lothair had some interesting observations of the WT and AS as a whole.

 

Hmm interesting, could you share with us what Lothair's insightful observations on the WT and AS are? You know aside from them all being DF's and evil.

That's not what Lothair wrote. Galad explains it:

“Not all women who wield the One Power are evil inherently,” he said. “That is a mistaken tradition of the Children. The Way of the Light doesn’t make that claim; it just says that the temptation to use the One Power can corrupt."

Looking at the percentage of Black Ajah members in the Tower, seems Lothair had a point.

[Entreri]

I really disliked the audiobook. E-books, now those are the best, yes, even better than ancient paper. Alas, for some bizzare reason, Tor has decided to release the e-book many months afterwards. Carrying around massive tombs is not fun.

 

The prologue and chapter 1 were great. I can't think of a single author who does not have some kind of filler, call it an interlude before the action starts. Some pople are just going overboard with the critique of chapter 2.

[Amandera]

It's not a bizarre reason. It's financial. E-books and paperbacks are cheaper than hardcovers and audiobooks, but you have a huge fanbase that will buy the book no matter the price. I, myself, had to pre-order aMoL from Amazon even though I no longer buy hard copies.

 

As for chapter 2, I don't have a problem with fillers so long as they are fun but this was just horrible and pointless not to mention the inconsistencies.

[yoniy0]

It's not a bizarre reason. It's financial. E-books and paperbacks are cheaper than hardcovers and audiobooks

I think you're mistaken on both counts. Firstly, Tor's record with releasing ebooks is such that I'm fairly certain they don't find it detrimental to their bottom line. On the other hand, Jim had a mistrust for the medium, and Harriet hangs to it as well. Even though NYT now displays the combined list on the top, they still do have a separate list for HC (audiobooks are included in it, though), and while that holds, Harriet has her excuse for her inclinations.

 

On the other hand, ever since the agency model put an end to Amazon's selling ebooks at a loss (they made their money out of selling actual Kindles, rather than the ebooks), new releases are priced at ~16USD. Tor's cut is some 12USD out of that, not all that big of a difference from what they get out of HC's (and surly more than they do from paperbacks). I have to admit I've no clue how much they make out of an audiobook sale, but considering Audible sell a single book per month at 14USD, I can't imagine it's more than that.

[Hopefire]

The WT is modeled on the Catholic Church, yes?

 

You don't think that people 1,500 years ago, 1,000 years ago, 500 years ago saw the failings of the Church? Not to say that everything the Church did was wrong, but surely historians or philosophers commented on it...

 

Yep. I'm reminded a bit of part of the Decameron.

 

The Jew took horse, and posted with all possible speed to Rome; where on his arrival he was honourably received by his fellow Jews.

 

He said nothing to any one of the purpose for which he had come; but began circumspectly to acquaint himself with the ways of the Pope and the cardinals and the other prelates and all the courtiers; and from what he saw for himself, being a man of great intelligence, or learned from others, he discovered that without distinction of rank they were all sunk in the most disgraceful lewdness, sinning not only in the way of nature but after the manner of the men of Sodom, without any restraint of remorse or shame, in such sort that, when any great favour was to be procured, the influence of the courtesans and boys was of no small moment.

 

Moreover he found them one and all gluttonous, wine-bibbers, drunkards, and next after lewdness, most addicted to the shameless service of the belly, like brute beasts.

 

And, as he probed the matter still further, he perceived that they were all so greedy and avaricious that human, nay Christian blood, and things sacred of what kind soever, spiritualities no less than temporalities, they bought and sold for money; which traffic was greater and employed more brokers than the drapery trade and all the other trades of Paris put together; open simony and gluttonous excess being glosed under such specious terms as “ arrangement ” and “ moderate use of creature comforts, ” as if God could not penetrate the thoughts of even the most corrupt hearts, to say nothing of the signification of words, and would suffer Himself to be misled after the manner of men by the names of things.

 

Which matters, with many others which are not to be mentioned, our modest and sober-minded Jew found by no means to his liking, so that, his curiosity being fully satisfied, he was minded to return to Paris; which accordingly he did.

 

-the Decameron, first day, Novel II

 

 

That was from 1353.

 

 

 

 

If you've never read the Decameron, you should. There are some good translations of it that turn it into quite readable modern English, and the book is amazing. I cannot recommend it highly enough. Reading it completely changed the way I thought of medieval society and how I thought that medieval society looked at the world.

[Mulk]

The WT is modeled on the Catholic Church, yes?

 

You don't think that people 1,500 years ago, 1,000 years ago, 500 years ago saw the failings of the Church? Not to say that everything the Church did was wrong, but surely historians or philosophers commented on it...

 

 

As to the 4th wall problem.... Who's to say that Androl doesn't have this knowledge? To assume that it is "reader only material" is a very shallow take on it.

 

These two.

 

The Two Rivers or other backcountry places aren't going to know that. All we know of Androl's past is that he's been around for a while, he's one heck of a leatherworker, he's been nearly everywhere, he was likely involved in a brief rebellion and he probably had male channelers in the family. Probably a couple of other bits I don't recall off the top of my head but you get the picture. All of the major cities have some idea what Aes Sedai are like (some more slanted and/or off base than others), and the only places we see them held in reverence are along the Blight. Ergo, urban centers taken as a whole are not blind to what Aes Sedai are like, or what the White Tower may try to do. A man as traveled as Androl is would have to be blind and deaf to not have some idea about it.

 

He's not a farmer from the far end of forever who has never met Aes Sedai, he's a reasonably intelligent and well-traveled man who sees more than you might think. Viewed in that light, it's more believable to assume he would know or at least have some idea than to assume the opposite.

[Suttree]

Galad, who grew up with AS and spent time in the WT was fascinated by the original writings of Lothair. I think that the modern CotL are a very zealous corrupt group compared to the original intent - but that does not change that I think Lothair had some interesting observations of the WT and AS as a whole.

 

Hmm interesting, could you share with us what Lothair's insightful observations on the WT and AS are? You know aside from them all being DF's and evil.

That's not what Lothair wrote. Galad explains it:

“Not all women who wield the One Power are evil inherently,” he said. “That is a mistaken tradition of the Children. The Way of the Light doesn’t make that claim; it just says that the temptation to use the One Power can corrupt."

 

The discussion with MV was an off shoot of what Androl would know about AS. He put forth that WCs would have unique insight to there issues that we as a reader know which is false. As for the above I made the mistake of just doing a quick search here...

 

BWB

According to Whitecloak definitions, all Aes Sedai are Darkfriends, or at least evil, as are any who support them. Their claim is based on the belief that it was the Aes Sedai and the One Power that destroyed the world during the Breaking. There is no doubt that the Children and their attitudes are responsible for the intolerance of Aes Sedai in Amadicia. Anyone with the ability to channel is outlawed there. By law any channelers are to be imprisoned or exiled, but in actuality most are killed while "resisting arrest."

 

Looking at the percentage of Black Ajah members in the Tower, seems Lothair had a point.

 

That is a rather large over simplification wouldn't you say? Considering how Ishy started it and targeted the WT specifically. It's not as if the BA was an AS started groupd by DFs. The factors going into the present day BA are far more complex than what you state above.

 

The WT is modeled on the Catholic Church, yes?

 

You don't think that people 1,500 years ago, 1,000 years ago, 500 years ago saw the failings of the Church? Not to say that everything the Church did was wrong, but surely historians or philosophers commented on it...

 

 

As to the 4th wall problem.... Who's to say that Androl doesn't have this knowledge? To assume that it is "reader only material" is a very shallow take on it.

 

These two.

 

The Two Rivers or other backcountry places aren't going to know that. All we know of Androl's past is that he's been around for a while, he's one heck of a leatherworker, he's been nearly everywhere, he was likely involved in a brief rebellion and he probably had male channelers in the family. Probably a couple of other bits I don't recall off the top of my head but you get the picture. All of the major cities have some idea what Aes Sedai are like (some more slanted and/or off base than others), and the only places we see them held in reverence are along the Blight. Ergo, urban centers taken as a whole are not blind to what Aes Sedai are like, or what the White Tower may try to do. A man as traveled as Androl is would have to be blind and deaf to not have some idea about it.

 

He's not a farmer from the far end of forever who has never met Aes Sedai, he's a reasonably intelligent and well-traveled man who sees more than you might think. Viewed in that light, it's more believable to assume he would know or at least have some idea than to assume the opposite.

 

Whose to say? Androl himself maybe?

 

AMoL

Pevara laughed. "Oh my, Androl. You really don't know anything about us, do you?"

"Honestly? No. I've avoided your kind for most of my life."

 

Urban centers most certainly do not know what we as readers do about the major issues with the WT. The knowledge he expresses goes fay beyond "what an AS may try to do" btw. It is not reasonable at all to expect that level of insight from anyone who hasn't spent significant "recent" time around AS who have been struggling with how the world is changing.

 

hyperbole much? It was not broken but cracked. Broken would essentially have him talking to us or to the narrator.

 

Lol. On the off chance this wasn't a joke(I'm assuming it was, so well done) breaking the 4th wall is the name for when something like this happens. You don't change it to cracked based on the severity. Chuckle. Cracked indeed.

[Rufae]

If you recall, Thom was a Court Bard/Gleeman and yet had a pretty good handle on Aes Sedai politics. How much more so would a former ranking noble have? Especially one from Cairhienin or Tear.

[MountaineerWV]

I don't think that recognizing stagnation and inflexibility of an ancient and wealthy organization is a huge leap of logic.

 

The WT certainly has unique examples, but the general idea still applies.

 

*123 posts! haha.

[David Selig]

The Aes Sedai bonded by Logain's group spent quite a while in the BT. Androl could've learned a lot about Aes Sedai just by watching them and talking to them.

 

Can someone post what exactly are Androl's observations about Aes Sedai which seem so unbelievable?

[Suttree]

The Aes Sedai bonded by Logain's group spent quite a while in the BT. Androl could've learned a lot about Aes Sedai just by watching them and talking to them.

 

Can someone post what exactly are Androl's observations about Aes Sedai which seem so unbelievable?

 

A failrly comprehensive one was done yesterday...

 

Well he does say he spent his entire life avoiding Aes Sedai, but in reality that is irrelevent. The point here is the faults of the Aes Sedai, the ones that lead them to be stuck in their ways, are nore readily percievable to the public at large. In fact, due to the extensive degree of their training, Aes Sedai often appear remarkably adaptable and very capable to the all who encountered them prior to the appearence of Rand. I

 

This is because their idiocies all stem to one point--their self-image as Aes Sedai. This is due to the fact that the Aes Sedai only take young impressionable girls already wowwed enough with the image of being Aes Sedai, sequester them for upwards of twenty years reinforcing that impression daily so that all new Aes Sedai are so impressed with the image of being Aes Sedai they dare not question it. This presents problems because this sense of self-worth is based in the ability to channel, and others have that, and thus you begin to get things like their worship of the Oaths as their definning attribute and their wilful ignorence of the negative sides of the Oaths both practical and ideological. You get their disdain for wilders and their utterly baseless ideas about how women put out of the Tower cease channel. You get their need to believe that men who start channeling have permitted some intentional moral sin by choice (which in truth wraps into the fact that they then have to do something to these men that if it happened to themselves they would regard it as their worst nightmare). Even things like their lack of active recruitment and their use of strength in the Power as the basis of their hierarchy in an act of absolute cognetive dissonance with the First Greatest Rudeness all tie back into this desperate, artificial, indoctrinated self-image.

 

And none of it is percievable under normal circumstances. In almost any situation an Aes Sedai could encounter pre-Rand she would have had specific detailed training in how to deal with it--and they are neither unintelligent or unaddaptive. It is only when they encounter something completely outside the strata of their education that they fall to pieces--Wise Ones, bullying Windfinders, Kinswomen numbers, damane, Asha'man and Dragon Reborns who channel saidin but can't be safely gentled (indeed in the White Towers acceptance of Elaida's plan to leash Rand despite the prophecies you see clearly just how deep the indoctrination runs and how unprepared they are for anything outside of it). It's no mistake that the sisters who maintained their capability into modern days were those who for whatever reason had been pushed outside of the Aes Sedai self image and forced to adapt--Verin, recruited into the Black Ajah against her inclination. Cadsuane, taught this lesson by Norla in the Black Hills, Saerin, originally a Daughter of Silence (and at one time, pre-Brandon, I would have added Pevara, a Red with a Green's temprement).

 

Androl had at best Pevara's surprise that the men weren't using strength (which could result from no more than say, an expectation in the barbarism of men who can channel) and the expectation that few men would take up the Dragon's call for men who channel that informed and led to the failure of Toveine's assault--which realistically is in no way a stupid expectation--though of course they probably should have done more research before launching the attack. Either way, the information at hand is not enough to provide Androl with the knowledge to realise despite the Aes Sedai's three thousand year, well earned track record of capability, adaptability and success that they have a deep ideological flaw that expresses itself in a lot of backward thinking and intransigence to change.

 

The reader knows this. Their conversation is precisely the sort of thing I could see readers discussing on the forums. But two in-world characters--no, they shouldn't have had that conversation, not without some sort of specific incident to bring it about--like the Wise Ones had with the kidnapping of Rand, or the Windfinders had with the Bargain with Elayne and Nynaeve, or the Kinswomen had watching the Windfinders treat the Aes Sedai like crap.

 

Ergo, I say the conversation was far too reader-aware. Brandon wrote it not with Pevara and Androl in mind, but with the readers in mind. It is but one of the many incidents in which Brandon uses the characters to speak to the reader, and it is disruptive to the fourth wall, to the integrity of the world, and to the integrity of the characters (in terms of their characterizations).

[MasterAblar]

Looking at the percentage of Black Ajah members in the Tower, seems Lothair had a point.

 

That is a rather large over simplification wouldn't you say? Considering how Ishy started it and targeted the WT specifically. It's not as if the BA was an AS started groupd by DFs. The factors going into the present day BA are far more complex than what you state above.

 

Ishamael may have organised and started the group but the BA kept themselves going. And it's not just the BA. Aes Sedai in general, at least the current crop of them, do a fair amount of jostling for power. Lothair was perfectly right when he said that the One Power could corrupt a person.

[Suttree]

Looking at the percentage of Black Ajah members in the Tower, seems Lothair had a point.

 

That is a rather large over simplification wouldn't you say? Considering how Ishy started it and targeted the WT specifically. It's not as if the BA was an AS started groupd by DFs. The factors going into the present day BA are far more complex than what you state above.

 

Ishamael may have organised and started the group but the BA kept themselves going. And it's not just the BA. Aes Sedai in general, at least the current crop of them, do a fair amount of jostling for power. Lothair was perfectly right when he said that the One Power could corrupt a person.

 

Oh there is no doubt that it can. Regardless that does nothing to dispute the fact that its a very complex issue. Far more so than what David alluded to. Make no mistake as well that the WT was and continues to be targeted. There is a rather significant difference, and the issue would be much more cut and dry if it was a DF started organization. Ishy takes about making the AS dance to his tune and saying the OP can corrupt is not the whole if it in the slightest.

[yoniy0]

If you recall, Thom was a Court Bard/Gleeman and yet had a pretty good handle on Aes Sedai politics. How much more so would a former ranking noble have? Especially one from Cairhienin or Tear.

Are you joking? Thom was and is a world-level player in the Game of Houses. His official position as Bard isn't much more than a cover (although he's a terrific Bard). And he was the chief advisor to the Queen of Andor, arguably the Tower's greatest ally in current times. Are we to assume most nobles would enjoy his access to AS politics, or have his ability to decipher what they see?

 

I'm not sure I see the point in this argument. Is anyone challenging the observation that it's Brandon's practice to speak to the reader vicariously through the characters? Did you not notice how many times Kate said "said" in that chapter? Is there any argument that we've been directly told what's happening and what it should mean a great deal more than is needed or savory?

[Agitel]

Whose to say? Androl himself maybe?

 

AMoL

Pevara laughed. "Oh my, Androl. You really don't know anything about us, do you?"

"Honestly? No. I've avoided your kind for most of my life."

 

Deflection? A bit of an Aes Sedai answer?

 

Instead of assuming the worst, why don't we keep an open mind until after we've finished the book and probably find out more about Androl in the process? I don't know about you, Suttree, but Luckers often says that his problem isn't that Brandon's a bad writer, but that he thinks Brandon isn't writing to the best of his ability. Yet any time there is a plausible explanation to a fan's questions in the writing itself, I see that dismissed, and people just default to blaming Brandon for bad writing, as if the plausible explanation and bit of 'potential' subtlety is nothing more than coincidence and a place where Brandon somehow lucked out and stumbled onto something.

 

Let's see the whole book first before we start making conclusions.

[Suttree]

If you recall, Thom was a Court Bard/Gleeman and yet had a pretty good handle on Aes Sedai politics. How much more so would a former ranking noble have? Especially one from Cairhienin or Tear.

Are you joking? Thom was and is a world-level player in the Game of Houses. His official position as Bard isn't much more than a cover (although he's a terrific Bard). And he was the chief advisor to the Queen of Andor, arguably the Tower's greatest ally in current times. Are we to assume most nobles would enjoy his access to AS politics, or have his ability to decipher what they see?

 

I'm not sure I see the point in this argument. Is anyone challenging the observation that it's Brandon's practice to speak to the reader vicariously through the characters? Did you not notice how many times Kate said "said" in that chapter? Is there any argument that we've been directly told what's happening and what it should mean a great deal more than is needed or savory?

 

No, of course there is no question. It happens very frequently in his work and quibbling over this one passage doesn't change that in the slightest.

 

[ I don't know about you, Suttree, but Luckers often says that his problem isn't that Brandon's a bad writer, but that he thinks Brandon isn't writing to the best of his ability. conclusions.

 

Is this sarcasm? I have constantly said that very thing as anyone here can attest. The problem being Luckers and I referring to the fact that we aren't getting his best work in the WoT period. It has never been that he's not doing as good as RJ, it's that he's not doing as good as Brandon. Regardless we have got what got in TGS and ToM and the advance materials are much of the same. I dont think there is anyone who disputes Yoniy0's point above.

[thom_merrilin]

What is really annoying is that Team Jordan are also missing things. They asked for extra time so there are no mistakes, yet so far the three chapters are littered with them. If this is any sign the last book is going to be an absolute nightmare of errors.

[Agitel]

Is this sarcasm? I have constantly said that very thing. The problem being not Luckers and I referring to the fact that we aren't getting his bet work in the WoT period. It has never been that he's not doing as good as RJ, it's that he's not doing as good as Brandon. Regardless we have got what gor in TGS and ToN and the advance materials are much od teaame. I sit think theee is anyone who disputes Yoniy0's point above.

 

It wasn't intended to be sarcasm, though I see how it reads that way. I honestly couldn't remember your exact opinion on the subject. What I can remember is you being very critical of Brandon's 'lack of evolution' as an author, and I wasn't sure whether this extended to you thinking that tGS and ToM are Brandon's best efforts (and failures) or whether you thought it was within Brandon's abilities to have done much better.

 

I still stand by the rest of my post. We really don't know enough about Androl to make an informed judgment. If we learn more and can see that his character can't know this, then of course I'll come down on the critical side. I've read all of Brandon's novel-length works, though. He is capable of that type of subtlety even if sometimes he comes off as blunt and can be perceived as incapable of it.

 

What is really annoying is that Team Jordan are also missing things. They asked for extra time so there are no mistakes, yet so far the three chapters are littered with them. If this is any sign the last book is going to be an absolute nightmare of errors.

 

I agree. The same goes for the alpha and beta readers, some of whom must have carefully read the series many times. However, I think it goes to show how incredible the task is. The scale of it seems unappreciated.

[Suttree]

Is this sarcasm? I have constantly said that very thing. The problem being not Luckers and I referring to the fact that we aren't getting his bet work in the WoT period. It has never been that he's not doing as good as RJ, it's that he's not doing as good as Brandon. Regardless we have got what gor in TGS and ToN and the advance materials are much od teaame. I sit think theee is anyone who disputes Yoniy0's point above.

 

It wasn't intended to be sarcasm, though I see how it reads that way. I honestly couldn't remember your exact opinion on the subject. What I can remember is you being very critical of Brandon's lack of evolution as an author, and I wasn't sure whether this extended to you thinking that tGS and ToM are Brandon's best efforts (and failures) or whether you thought it was within Brandon's abilities to have done much better.

 

I still stand by the rest of my post. We really don't know enough about Androl to make an informed judgment. If we learn more and can see that his character can't know this, then of course I'll come down on the critical side. I've read all of Brandon's works though. He is capable of that type of subtlety even if sometimes he comes off incredibly blunt and can be perceived incapable of it.

 

What is really annoying is that Team Jordan are also missing things. They asked for extra time so there are no mistakes, yet so far the three chapters are littered with them. If this is any sign the last book is going to be an absolute nightmare of errors.

 

I agree. The same goes for the alpha and beta readers, some of whom must have carefully read the series many times. However, I think it goes to show how incredible the task is. The scale of it seems unappreciated.

 

TJ is to blame as well for certain but after hearing from some in the know on the process they were asked to do far more than is their job. Recall Brandon washed his hands of things before any beta readers had even seen the book. That is not normal.

[shortkut]

Sutt, I said it was hyperbole not because you said the fourth wAll was broken but because you said it was TOTALLY broken

[Agitel]

Is this sarcasm? I have constantly said that very thing. The problem being not Luckers and I referring to the fact that we aren't getting his bet work in the WoT period. It has never been that he's not doing as good as RJ, it's that he's not doing as good as Brandon. Regardless we have got what gor in TGS and ToN and the advance materials are much od teaame. I sit think theee is anyone who disputes Yoniy0's point above.

 

It wasn't intended to be sarcasm, though I see how it reads that way. I honestly couldn't remember your exact opinion on the subject. What I can remember is you being very critical of Brandon's lack of evolution as an author, and I wasn't sure whether this extended to you thinking that tGS and ToM are Brandon's best efforts (and failures) or whether you thought it was within Brandon's abilities to have done much better.

 

I still stand by the rest of my post. We really don't know enough about Androl to make an informed judgment. If we learn more and can see that his character can't know this, then of course I'll come down on the critical side. I've read all of Brandon's works though. He is capable of that type of subtlety even if sometimes he comes off incredibly blunt and can be perceived incapable of it.

 

What is really annoying is that Team Jordan are also missing things. They asked for extra time so there are no mistakes, yet so far the three chapters are littered with them. If this is any sign the last book is going to be an absolute nightmare of errors.

 

I agree. The same goes for the alpha and beta readers, some of whom must have carefully read the series many times. However, I think it goes to show how incredible the task is. The scale of it seems unappreciated.

 

TJ is to blame as well for certain but after hearing from some in the know on the process they were asked to do far more than is their job. Recall Brandon washed his hands of things before any beta readers had even seen the book. That is not normal.

 

I haven't been privy to knowledge of the relationships and agreements between Brandon, Harriet and TJ. I don't know whether it was tense or cordial (though I'm sure there were moments of both regardless of the overall relationship), or what agreements or disagreements led to what decisions. I do know that Harriet contributed to the editing on The Way of Kings, so on some level they must have had a healthy enough relationship to collaborate on non-WoT projects.

[Suttree]

Sutt, I said it was hyperbole not because you said the fourth wAll was broken but because you said it was TOTALLY broken

 

Not sure why you would feel the need to split hairs but no worries. All good.

 

I haven't been privy to knowledge of the relationships and agreements between Brandon, Harriet and TJ. I don't know whether it was tense or cordial (though I'm sure there were moments of both regardless of the overall relationship), or what agreements or disagreements led to what decisions. I do know that Harriet contributed to the editing on The Way of Kings, so on some level they must have had a healthy enough relationship to collaborate on non-WoT projects.

 

Frankly you don't even need to be privy to things I've heard to understand there are issues. Recall months ago Brandon was very clear in that HE was done but Harriet and TJ needed extra time. Well now we still see very unpolished prose, lazy writing in the excerpts and various mistakes. Fingers crosses this is his best work in the WoT. We have seen him be a capable author elsewhere. He has it in him. Like Dom said over at TL that I posted yesterday...

 

Dom

The other very bad and lazy habit he's developped is that instead of making the effort of studying the thought patterns, the little languages quirks that made each character unique, he seems to go through a personal/cultural catalogue or checklist. The way Brandon writes Aviendha, you'd think she came out of the Waste a few days ago, not to mention that it's like she's going in circles, thinking about the same topics since TGS. He's got few RJ-written POVs to work with, so he keeps using the same Aiel cultural stuff over and over again (mind you, when he invents new ones or picks some from the notes he tries to integrate, it's generally even worse...). It's astounding the space Brandon loses giving us information and observations that not only don't fit well, but that so late in the series we don't need all the while not making the efforts of including the stuff we would need. Those inner thoughts are vital, they each followed a unique pattern and they played a large part in making the characters feel like who they were. And the number of extraneous scenes, and extraneous action during scenes (must we "see" each and every messenger a character sends or receives? What happened to character noticing the other left an unopened letter on the table?)) is simply astounding, it's like Brandon never heard about ellipses (except, in his own books he's perfectly able to do that it's rather like he's never really managed to get a proper level of control over the WOT project, it continues to overwhelm him)

[MasterAblar]

I still stand by the rest of my post. We really don't know enough about Androl to make an informed judgment. If we learn more and can see that his character can't know this, then of course I'll come down on the critical side. I've read all of Brandon's novel-length works, though. He is capable of that type of subtlety even if sometimes he comes off incredibly blunt and can be perceived as incapable of it.

 

I agree with this. The prologue already shows us that Androl has quite an intersting and mysterious past. He apparently played the Game of House, a period of his life he did not wish to explain, and took part in the Knocks rebellion in Murandy. He also mentions that "he hated talking with Aes Seda, with them twisting everything about", so it sounds to me like he's had experience with them. And in ToM we learn he's been amongst the Sea Folk as well, something once again mentioned in chapter 2. Do we even know how old Androl is? Even Emarin was impressed with Androl's past, becoming more curious the more he learned. And Androl was able to unmask Emarin easely enough. At this point it seems premature to claim that there is no way Androl would be able point out flaws in the Aes Sedai. It's not like he made a huge speech or wrote an essay either. It's just a couple lines. Is it likely that someone would be able see the flaws in the Aes Sedai? No, but it's not impossible, and definitely not for Androl considering the suprising revelations about him.