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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

Chapter 2 Audio Available on Tor

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I didn't much care for the second chapter, it wasn't as horrible as the stuff we've read from Mat's first POV, but still..

 

First of all, why have two POVs at all? Let us have a full topic about the Black Tower, there are two things of interest there, why not break up the chapter into exploring those issues.

 

First part: Who is Androl, and what will be his relationship with Pevara.

 

This was kinda done, but it was a bit hamfisted. I agree with Luckers, that it reads as if Androl is a contributing member of Dragonmount. He seemingly knows a lot about everything -- even though it appears that he has worked as a leather guy for most of his life (I know nothing about leatherwork, but from what we've read he has some mastery of the trade). Without knowing more about him, it just comes off odd. Do we really need more suspence about who the new characters are? I don't really think so. Having him and Pevara have a honest conversation where they both step out of their comfort zones to agree to work and trust eachother would be much better. It would give the reader some satisfaction as well. That said, the mystery of Androl might be propped a bit up )by us), as we have discussed the released material to death..

 

Second part: Continuing the liberation of the Black Tower plot.

 

The chapter ended with news of Logain possibly having been capture and turned. I don't think that will happen at all. Mostly because really bad things don't happen to characters of his magnitude, but also because we have Mins fortelling. Logain will become some sort of hero. There is one book left. He is only really connected to the Black Tower plotline. What else could it be?

 

Regardless of all that, the chapter would be better if the second part of the chapter focused more on what the now unified Androl-Pevara will do to fix the tower. This could also help with bringing that part of the series up to date with the other storylines. I'm starting to get tired of the different timelines, fixing that should be a priority in my mind (how a casual reader manages to keep it all coherent I'll never understand).

 

Anyway, that was not the way it was written, instead we get half a chapter of Avi sneaking (in skirts and a white blouse??) into Elaynes camp for some crazy reason. Was this just to portray how awesome the Aiel are? We've already had 11 books telling us how these Ninjas in cotton PJs can stand up to Heavy Calvary, and other stories about their badassedness. We really don't need more. Internal monologue that she was going to teach that Warder that spotted her a lesson or whatever? Was she in cadin'sor when she snuck about? I mean, even if it is dark, you will see someone lying on the ground wearing a white algode blouse (like all the Wise Ones wear). She is asking if she has toh for clipping her nails? Elayne doesn't sense her first-sister bond? She's asking Elayne for permission to hook up with Rand? I thought after they hashed that out in Lord of Chaos they were considered equals in that regard? Elayne dismissed the Aiel from Caemlyn, but they're apparently good enough for a (suicide) mission into the city to close the waygate? Rands moronic (yet apparently soo clever) daes dae'mar letter telling her to do the opposite of what he wants in order for her to do what he wants which she already is going to do -- which again totally negates some of the suspense from chapter one -- would she stay or would she go?

 

The last part of chapter two was a complete mess [explicative replaced] both in errors, characterization but most of all, a half chapter of the last book was spent where nothing happened. We didn't have to read any of that, no character growth, no news, no plot movement. Brandon should have had a post-it on his computer screen while writing this book:

 

This is the last book.

There are a gazillion open plots.

Make every word count.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
language

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It's amazing how the AIel weirdness, when written by RJ, is cool. But Aiel weirdness written by Brandon is butt-hurt.

 

Why did Avi sneak into the camp? Because she could. It was established back in tGH that the Aiel sneaked up on their friends to gain ji. Now suddenly it is wrong.

 

No one seems to question how bulky dresses that the wise ones wear into battle has no effect on their ability to keep up with the other Aiel or impair their battle skills or their ability to sneak about.

 

Asking for toh probably is an error or it could be Avi's Wetland thinking seeping through. We have already witnessed how she craved a bath and not the sweattent. Could it be that she had a wetlander moment? *shock*

 

Why didn't Elayne sense her First Sister? Why didn't Suian sense the death of her warder? When you are focused on one thing intently, those sense are dulled.

 

Why did she ask permission to sleep with Rand? Because it would be the polite thing to do in Elayne's eyes. She also wanted to arrange a meeting with Min and Rand if you recall.

 

People who look for problems will find them.

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It's amazing how the AIel weirdness, when written by RJ, is cool. But Aiel weirdness written by Brandon is butt-hurt.

 

Dom over at TL had a great call on why this is...

 

Dom,

The other very bad and lazy habit he's developped is that instead of making the effort of studying the thought patterns, the little languages quirks that made each character unique, he seems to go through a personal/cultural catalogue or checklist. The way Brandon writes Aviendha, you'd think she came out of the Waste a few days ago, not to mention that it's like she's going in circles, thinking about the same topics since TGS. He's got few RJ-written POVs to work with, so he keeps using the same Aiel cultural stuff over and over again (mind you, when he invents new ones or picks some from the notes he tries to integrate, it's generally even worse...).
Edited by Suttree

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Sam, I don't think you're taking those points seriously:

  • What young algai'd'siswai do and what WO do are two completely different things. There's also the difference between normal times and emergencies.
  • WO never took part in fights, so running in skirts is the only hardship they would face. And really, that should not bother them any.
  • RJ explained Siuan's not noticing Alric's death, and it was because he wasn't killed straight away (before Elaida entered her office). Either way, he had a chance to claim that occupation of the mind could make one miss that fact, and he opted not to, so I don't think your point has merit.
  • Finally, mixing toh with Wetlander customs is acceptable because Aviendha has learned to enjoy baths? Isn't that a tad weak in your eyes?

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It's amazing how the AIel weirdness, when written by RJ, is cool. But Aiel weirdness written by Brandon is butt-hurt.

 

Dom over at TL had a great call on why this is...

 

Dom,

The other very bad and lazy habit he's developped is that instead of making the effort of studying the thought patterns, the little languages quirks that made each character unique, he seems to go through a personal/cultural catalogue or checklist. The way Brandon writes Aviendha, you'd think she came out of the Waste a few days ago, not to mention that it's like she's going in circles, thinking about the same topics since TGS. He's got few RJ-written POVs to work with, so he keeps using the same Aiel cultural stuff over and over again (mind you, when he invents new ones or picks some from the notes he tries to integrate, it's generally even worse...).

 

Ok, Avi had very little material written by RJ so Brandon had to basically write her from scratch. How do people then hold him as being "lazy" and a poor writing because he had to take over someone else's world and write from scratch one of the most difficult characters in the series? People have the gall to get upset that he didn't send 5 years learning what made Avi tick while the publisher (TOR)and Team Jordan yells in his ear to "FINNISH THE BOOK ASAP!" I think people are taking it way too far and not being reasonable on the issue.

 

What young algai'd'siswai do and what WO do are two completely different things. There's also the difference between normal times and emergencies.

 

And how long exactly has Avi been a Wiseone? This isn't AMys sneakign around here, Avi was just in cadinsor a year and a half ago. ANd at no time was she ever held up as the epitome of WO'ness. She has always been portrayed as young and childish.

 

RJ explained Siuan's not noticing Alric's death, and it was because he wasn't killed straight away (before Elaida entered her office). Either way, he had a chance to claim that occupation of the mind could make one miss that fact, and he opted not to, so I don't think your point has merit.

 

The initial response from RJ was that Siuan did not notice her warder's death because she was so focused in her study and therefore she didn't notice. Whether he changed that explanation later I don't know.

 

Finally, mixing toh with Wetlander customs is acceptable because Aviendha has learned to enjoy baths? Isn't that a tad weak in your eyes?

 

So making Avi actually consider the fact that Elayne, despite benign a First Sister, is not born and raised Aiel and knows nothing of their customs is totally crazy? Just because Elayne accepts the 3-way marriage thing, it doesn't mean she would accept the breech of decorum.

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Avi asking if she had toh towards Elayne was basically her way of asking if she had offended wetlander customs and, in her Aiel mindset, might have to make up for it.

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Yet by her own standards, having to ask means that you do indeed have something to make amends for. That inconsequential, though, it was merely amusing. I don't believe you'll find anyone who'd point to that as the reason chapter 2 made them uncomfortable.

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It's amazing how the AIel weirdness, when written by RJ, is cool. But Aiel weirdness written by Brandon is butt-hurt.

 

Dom over at TL had a great call on why this is...

 

Dom,

The other very bad and lazy habit he's developped is that instead of making the effort of studying the thought patterns, the little languages quirks that made each character unique, he seems to go through a personal/cultural catalogue or checklist. The way Brandon writes Aviendha, you'd think she came out of the Waste a few days ago, not to mention that it's like she's going in circles, thinking about the same topics since TGS. He's got few RJ-written POVs to work with, so he keeps using the same Aiel cultural stuff over and over again (mind you, when he invents new ones or picks some from the notes he tries to integrate, it's generally even worse...).

 

I totally agree! Aviendha's "The Ways of Honor" in TGS is a prime example. That chapter burned me out on the word "honor!" Aviendha wasn't that bad when she first appears in TDR or during TSR - LoC with Rand.

Edited by Theodril

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I'm one of those frequent readers/infrequent commenters but I feel the need to weigh-in on so many things here. Let's start with Aviendha:

 

1. She is still young and impetuous, albeit Wise. She wants a private conversation with the Queen of Andor, who is her first-sister, so she takes pride in sneaking through the camp and idly thinks about showing the warder who noticed her a thing or two. That's totally within Aviendha's character. She is a woman of two worlds who likes to remind herself of her own strengths as a spear sister.

 

2. She toys with her knife, like she's always done.

 

3. She asks her FIRST-SISTER, in private, if her actions have caused her an obligation to Elayne based upon a new cultural shift in Elayne's status as Queen and holding a private meeting in a tent. A first-sister asking a question of protocol in private is a far different matter than openly asking strangers if you have Toh. Get over it people. Was it smoothly done? No. But it's not out of the realm of reasonableness either.

 

4. Rand's letter to Elayne IS a smart move provided it is written politically. It can be used to show to her nobles that the Dragon Reborn released her in writing from her obligations at Merrilor, but she chose to stay (smart). It plays off the classic male/female WoT need to do the opposite of what the other sex says - (smart). Again, was it handled on the low-end of the writer imagination, yes....but it was, again, a reasonable thing to happen in my eyes. Elayne and Rand are also awkward with each other in terms of handling their relationship vs. their roles.

 

5. Bair and Amys (IIRC) place bets over whether Melaine will rush off to see Bael or Dorindha first in an earlier book. One bets on the new husband, the other bets on the first-sister. So in Aiel culture, it is a totally reasonable expectation for Aviendha to visit her first-sister first, as this is her last evening with Rand and it will be a full evening at that point :)

 

6. Regarding the waygate in Caemlyn: destroying them is very, very hard and simultaneously dangerous. Rand apparently has very advanced warding capabilities, which have not been widely shown by others by any means - in fact, a few times it is pointed out that his warding capabilities have gone beyond what is known to be possible by Aes Sedai.

 

Elayne removed the leaves and heavily guarded it at a time in which every soldier was needed. She also left 4 weak channelers in Caemlyn. They were overwhelmed by darkfriends - do we really need a scene on that vs. the broader scenes on the sacking of Caemlyn?

 

....I think that takes care of all the major objections With that scene. It was filler, no doubt, and it was low-end to me, but it wasn't god awful either. No worse than things Jordan has written and I slogged through many times in all my re-reads.

 

...

 

Androl...

 

1. Androl is apparently an extremely smart, traveled, well-read, and intelligent man - on the order of Thom Merrilin so far, albeit less of a Game player and more of a straight shooter. His intuitive abilities, the fact he apparently helped lead an unlike-to-succeed-yet-successful murandian rebellion, and his exposure-nigh-on-young-Jain-Farstrider to the world indicates the guy can be expected to come out with really insightful comments very frequently.

 

2. The linking raised my eyebrows, but we don't know enough about male-female linking either. Perhaps because Pevara tried to establish it it was possible. Or perhaps it was a huge mistake that will be corrected.

 

3. I find it a waste that Androl has gotten more character development than Logain since Logain was Healed. Wtf? Nevertheless, I do like the guy. :)

 

4. We don't yet know what Androl channeled. It is possible Pevara couldn't see the weaves for anothe reason. Let's get some more exposure here because the bandwagon gets swamped.

 

...

 

In regards to fan entitlement: I've gotten alot of early content for free or low cost. I expect publishers to set timelines and reasonably stay within them. That didn't happen. Since it didn't happen, I expect the last novel to be a masterpiece in every sense and throughout damn near every chapter. So far, yes, I am concerned. I don't expect Sanderson to master every character - it's simply not possible and I don' tknow why it's an expectation. And since Sanderson can't hit it everytime, I don't expect TJ to be able to either. It was a unique attribute of the original dreamer.

 

I don't blame TJ for not wanting to do a beta read or possibly being resistant to it. As weird as that sounds, the bottom line is that this is NOT the other books. The other books would have big reveals and such risked being leaked via a beta read. This is the last book, the finale, and I can understand being fearful of too many people finding out the ending.

 

TreeJoe

Edited by TreeJoe
off topic and aggravating (express this on another thread)

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The last part of chapter two was a complete mess [explicative replaced] both in errors, characterization but most of all, a half chapter of the last book was spent where nothing happened. We didn't have to read any of that, no character growth, no news, no plot movement. Brandon should have had a post-it on his computer screen while writing this book:

 

This is the last book.

There are a gazillion open plots.

Make every word count.

 

This. There are so many things that could have been written about, but it seems the last few books have focussed on "Blacksmitthing 101" and "How to sneak up on Wetlanders".

 

I appreciate the fact someone is finishing the series for us. It's nice that he seems to be a lovely guy. I just mourn for what COULD have been.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
language in quoted post

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This is god awful.

I was patient through TGS and TOM, taking them for what they were - buildup to the ultimate climax.

 

This is the final book, there's no more room for patience, no more room for filler, no more room for mistakes, or for filling pages with childish scenes like Avi sneaking through the camp, or Rand's ridiculous letter to Elayne, or talking about sleeping with rand, or the immature reactions of Pevara/Androl, or the oversimplification of character's thought processes and ability to reason.

 

This is a book that should have a sense of urgency from page 1 until the finish line - the world is supposed to be ending. Avi's people are on a course to wiped from the earth in a protracted and humiliating way, and she's wasting time sneaking through a camp to talk about Rand?

 

How are there still basic mistakes in the mechanics of the one power/linking/first sister bond that fans can pick up on first site but a team of editors can't pick up over multiple revisions.

 

To say I'm disappointed in the prerelease materials is an understatement of massive proportions. The prologue held some promise but even then, "dreadbane", "dreamshard", Talmanes turning black from the myrdraal taint, worst of all Talmanes miraculously surviving in the nick of time.

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My current section of my reread, TPoD - CoT, makes this chapter look vintage RJ. The first 10 chapters of WH and I am up to chapter 8 in CoT, and the pace is so freaking slow!

 

WH ended with the cleansing, ahead of every other plot line. And so far the first 12 chapters of CoT are calibrating the timeline with the cleansing and establishing that the 3 ta'veren have a "live feed" network. Mat leaves Ebou Dar on the day of the Cleansing. Perrin finds the Shaido on the day of the cleansing. Elayne visited a minor nobles house and collected 11 recruits on the day of the cleansing (Blood and bloody ashes, Elayne's micro details are a grind). She complained about Birgitte's and Aviendha's mothering and goats milk. And she's about to take a bath in two copper tubs with Aviendha, with a description of the "double-walled pails with lids" to keep the water warm!

 

In brief, the style and pace of chapter two of AMoL would fit very well in WH - CoT.

Edited by Theodril

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In brief, the style and pace of chapter two of AMoL would fit very well in WH - CoT.

The pace? Yes, I agree. CoT was very unsatisfying without KoD to read straight after. But style-wise? No way in hell. Through Elayne's thoughts of baths and elderly supporters we've learned what she was doing elsewhere and what her situation was. So even if you don't care for Elayne (which I don't quite get, but nonetheless acknowledge that it's fairly widespread), her PoV wasn't a just about the here-and-now. Then, there are purely thematic elements, like the sheer amount of dialog in the excerpts.

 

So, 'just as bad'? Debatable. The same? Not at all, I don't think so.

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In brief, the style and pace of chapter two of AMoL would fit very well in WH - CoT.

The pace? Yes, I agree. CoT was very unsatisfying without KoD to read straight after. But style-wise? No way in hell. Through Elayne's thoughts of baths and elderly supporters we've learned what she was doing elsewhere and what her situation was. So even if you don't care for Elayne (which I don't quite get, but nonetheless acknowledge that it's fairly widespread), her PoV wasn't a just about the here-and-now. Then, there are purely thematic elements, like the sheer amount of dialog in the excerpts.

 

So, 'just as bad'? Debatable. The same? Not at all, I don't think so.

 

RJ zeroed in on the day of the cleansing and gave us so many details in that one day.

 

Mat: Sitting on the rock to ponder over the Great Escape to his 2-mile walk with Egeanin, encounter with Seanchan patrol in the show, meeting with Tuon, and then meeting with Joline

Perrin: waking up, circuit around camp, breakfast with Berelain, Masema's Suroth paper, meeting Masema

Faile: meeting Chiad, about to be raped by Nordic, rescued by Rolan, meets Alliandre and washes silk, meets Aravine and gets her fealty, gets punished for attempted escape, gets warmed by Rolan

Elayne: recruits 11 at minor nobles manor, Aviendha convinces her to leave Rand alone, enters palace and wants a bath, on the way is irritated by Birgitte, meets AS to discuss WF lessons, enters bath and all the boring details, new bargain with Zaida ceding 1 square mile of Andor in perpetuity for WF waygates, Dyelin brings the 4 "children" High Seats, Aviendha's silks, Birgitte's sulks, Hanlon's glare, Talaan's disappearance, Norry and his reports, Halfor and her spy catching, Essande and her apprentices, Monalle and "caressing the child," etc.....

 

And I haven't read the Egwene sections of that day, which will come after an enjoyable chapter of Arymilla, Elenia, Nasin, a Taraboner Questioner, and Elenia's maid getting a new silk dress in their rebel camp.

 

About 20 chapters is just too much detail for one day. And I guess it was to calibrate the timeline.

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About 20 chapters is just too much detail for one day. And I guess it was to calibrate the timeline.

That's a completely subjective argument; you're basically saying "I don't approve of that much happening on a single day" instead of judging the occurrences on their own merits (that is, did we need to see it--or something like it--happen).

 

But what really bothers me is that you neither addressed what I said (as to the difference between style and pace) nor anything at all related to AMoL. Saying "RJ did a bad job", while certainly not devoid of merit, is irrelevant to this discussion.

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Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but here goes - my internet is terribly slow and I had to try several times before I got to listen to the whole chapter at one go. Just to be sure that I did, in fact, listen to the whole thing, anyone mind telling what the last thing in the chapter is? The last thing I heard was Elayne agreeing to meet with Min and Aviendha in between battle reports. Is that where it ended or is there more?

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Not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but here goes - my internet is terribly slow and I had to try several times before I got to listen to the whole chapter at one go. Just to be sure that I did, in fact, listen to the whole thing, anyone mind telling what the last thing in the chapter is? The last thing I heard was Elayne agreeing to meet with Min and Aviendha in between battle reports. Is that where it ended or is there more?

That is where chapter 2 ends. Wish there was more...

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msbee - Thank you. I thought it was a rather abrupt end, hence my confusion. Well, two tortuous more months and more will come...

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About 20 chapters is just too much detail for one day. And I guess it was to calibrate the timeline.

1- That's a completely subjective argument; you're basically saying "I don't approve of that much happening on a single day" instead of judging the occurrences on their own merits (that is, did we need to see it--or something like it--happen).

 

2- But what really bothers me is that you neither addressed what I said (as to the difference between style and pace) nor anything at all related to AMoL. Saying "RJ did a bad job", while certainly not devoid of merit, is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

1- It is not just that there is too much happening on one day. There is also the excessive amounts of fluff material used to describe and butter up those events. Elayne's complaints about the maid at the minor noble's house! Mat and Egeanin walking back to Luca's show and staring at Seanchan villagers and such! There is considerable filler material in those 17 chapters.

 

The same applies to Chapter two of AMoL. My comment was that it could have delivered its intended plot and literary objective with 50% less words.

 

2- I am not just saying that RJ did a bad job with early CoT, I am saying that Brandon's Chapter 2 isn't worse than early CoT. There is a considerable degree of "drag." My recollection is that the pace and style are significantly close. RJ gave us a few pages of Elayne's bath and clothing (pre bath and post bath). And Sanderson gave us the detail's of Aviendha's subterfuge skills when he could have jumped directly to Aviendha - Rand meeting and her telling him that she has just come from Elayne's tent giving him the general atmosphere and what he needed to know.

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For those of you having trouble with the linking (myself included) I offer the following theory.

 

Linking and channeling are separate. A woman opens herself to the other person, the link is initiated and then that person, male or female, can pull the power through her. She can also after creating the link pull the power though the other person, male or female.

 

This works when Nynaeve, holding the power, links with Rand. It work with the wise ones linking with Neald when he is holding the power, in the forging of Perrin's hammer. And it also explains the Pevara - Androl linking problem.

 

Yes I know it goes against what the AS say about linking, but hey, they are AS, they have always done it their way.

 

And after all this is only a theory.

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Gosh, this was... pretty bad. Like wow. I do not like audiobooks to begin with, and the female who was reading it did a terrible voice job. to be honest I dont care at all about elayne and aviendah catching up. I want some answers. I want some fights. Come on! This was terrible! Talemanes, really? couldnt you just die??? I read a game of thrones this week. One thing that was great about it? People DIED. It was WONDERFUL. Sad yes. But real! This is rediculous!

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This is god awful.

I was patient through TGS and TOM, taking them for what they were - buildup to the ultimate climax.

 

This is the final book, there's no more room for patience, no more room for filler, no more room for mistakes, or for filling pages with childish scenes like Avi sneaking through the camp, or Rand's ridiculous letter to Elayne, or talking about sleeping with rand, or the immature reactions of Pevara/Androl, or the oversimplification of character's thought processes and ability to reason.

 

This is a book that should have a sense of urgency from page 1 until the finish line - the world is supposed to be ending. Avi's people are on a course to wiped from the earth in a protracted and humiliating way, and she's wasting time sneaking through a camp to talk about Rand?

 

How are there still basic mistakes in the mechanics of the one power/linking/first sister bond that fans can pick up on first site but a team of editors can't pick up over multiple revisions.

 

To say I'm disappointed in the prerelease materials is an understatement of massive proportions. The prologue held some promise but even then, "dreadbane", "dreamshard", Talmanes turning black from the myrdraal taint, worst of all Talmanes miraculously surviving in the nick of time.

 

brandon, marie harriet and co. filler after filler. and boring at that. countless pages of wasted ink and this close to the end.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
let's be tactful at least when expressing discontent

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I am droning about CoT in this thread! But I cannot help it. I just read 3 chapters in the book with the sole purpose of Perrin buying food for his soldiers and horses! When to Wear Jewels (had a Seanchan chapter icon) where Perrin and Berelain prepare to go to So Harbor; Into So Harbor here the stuff is purchased; and Doing what must be done (or whatever the title) where the grain is sifted and Perrin's refusal to help the town is quasi-explained. And prior to that, Loial's months-long mission to the steddings is covered in one page (or maybe two). And Logain's chat with Rand about the problems of the BT is a couple of pages only. Maybe oats and barley are more important than the BT!

 

How is that related to chapter two? Useless filler material is not something Brandon introduced to WoT.

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I am droning about CoT in this thread! But I cannot help it. I just read 3 chapters in the book with the sole purpose of Perrin buying food for his soldiers and horses! When to Wear Jewels (had a Seanchan chapter icon) where Perrin and Berelain prepare to go to So Harbor; Into So Harbor here the stuff is purchased; and Doing what must be done (or whatever the title) where the grain is sifted and Perrin's refusal to help the town is quasi-explained. And prior to that, Loial's months-long mission to the steddings is covered in one page (or maybe two). And Logain's chat with Rand about the problems of the BT is a couple of pages only. Maybe oats and barley are more important than the BT!

 

How is that related to chapter two? Useless filler material is not something Brandon introduced to WoT.

 

1. People complained just as much with CoT as the are doing now.

 

2. CoT was a "middle of the story" book. It was complained about alot, you can be sure. However, THIS IS THE FINAL BOOK. Most likely the last piece of the Wheel of Time we will ever read. There is a great difference between filler in the middle of a series and filler in the final book, when there is so much that still needs to be done and explained.

 

Your logic doesn't hold in this case.

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