Thoughts on One Power strength levels and exhaustion and linking (math intensive)

[Craig Jarvis]

Okay, I have been working on channeling and linking trying to make sense of how the power "adds" in a circle.

From the book and the BBoBA we learn that while there is an additive effect it is not the same as adding their strengths

(i.e. two AS at a power of 10 doen't equal 1 AS at a powerlevel of 20), and I think I have figured it out. You guys let me

know what you think:

The power-rating of a channeler actually represents the Radius of a circle (imagine a pipe-like connection to the One

Power).

Here are the figures for the different powerlevels (pi*r^2, fractions rounded down):

26 = 2123

25 = 1963

24 = 1809

23 = 1661

22 = 1520

21 = 1385

20 = 1256

19 = 1134

18 = 1017

17 = 907

16 = 804

15 = 706

14 = 615

13 = 530

12 = 452

11 = 380

10 = 314

9 = 254

8 = 201

7 = 153

6 = 113

5 = 78

4 = 50

3 = 28

2 = 12

1 = 3

Okay if two 5's link the added power would be 156 which would be a little more powerful than a 6, but twice the power of a 5.

You must be above a 7 to travel, barring a talent (which I would see as a multiplier of your power for specific weaves, also

ineffecient weaves would be a fractional multiplier for that weave). So for 4 Channelers who couldn't travel by themselves

they would need a total power of between 150 and 200 (let's say 175), so three 4's and a 3 could link to accomplish this.

If the Average AS has a Powerlevel of about 9 (*edit*I believe the 13th depository has them at 7), which is 254. So 7*254 =

1778. Rand wouldn't have much to fear from 7 linked if they were all a Powerlevel 9. At 8 Channelers, it becomes a near even

match at 2032. And if one of the 8 were a PL 11 it would be 2158. Rand would be outmatched on Raw power. This is about what

we see in the series.

Now it also says that 6 of the weakest AS (PL of 4) can maintain an unbreakable shield (unless you have to be 6 or 7 times

as strong as the shield on you to break it). I would have to say that is a facet of the linking providing a strengh that is

beyond just power level. Because that math won't add up even for Nyneve. And 13 women linked no matter their strength can place a

shield on anyone (if they are unlinked, I presume). So there is some X-Factor (not the TV show) also involved in linking (making

the weaves more dense, See below for my mixed circle thoughts), but for the rest of it, this works out for the strength.

I have also been looking at the fatigue levels trying to calculate that in as well. There were times after a few minutes of

extreme channeling that Moiraine would be exhausted and unable to stand. Where Rand and Nyneve can channel a mountain to ash

over a few hours and be no more exhausted. I think taking the same number value and applying it to the volume of a sphere to

indicate how much you can channel before fatigue sets in. That formula would be 4/3*pi*r^3. That would kinda match if for

every cubic unit was say 10 seconds/(powerlevel of channeling) before unconciousness sets in. With an overload factor for

burn-out/self-destruct usage levels.

just a few examples:

26 = 73622*10 seconds/26PL/3600 seconds in a hour = 7.8 hours (may be a tad much, but in the battle with Couladin Rand spent

about twice that time channeling off and on at varying powerlevels, and he wasn't at full strength yet. Battle started in the

morning and ran till far after dark 8 am - 10 pm as it was early-mid summer.)

20 = 33510 = 4.6 hours

15 = 14137 = 2.6 hours

10 = 4188 = 1.15 hours

5 = 523*10 seconds/5PL/60 seconds in a minute = 17.5 minutes

1 = 4.18*10 seconds/1pl = 41.88 seconds (Sorry Morgase)

 

Also note I think Angreal add a fixed number of points to your power level, and Sa'angrael multiply your Power level. But as

it seems with the chodenkal there may be PL requirements to use some Sa'Angreal without burn-out/death as a result.

Technically, You could use a Sa'Angreal if too weak, but only briefly and much like a 110 volt bulb with 220 volts going

through it, you would be done... for good, if not dead, which would also be done. Sidenote: Done that... brightest damn

lights I ever saw in a house... for about a second and a half... the previous owner didn't label the circuits very well, and

when I was putting in my tankless water heater... BRIGHTNESS! Whew, alot of stuff got replaced in that incident.

 

Now, in a mixed circle... there isn't really a mention of a power increase but rather strength, as in a porous bone vs a dense

bone. This has been mentioned every time there is a weave of both powers. Though you can see voids in the weave, when you

probe it, there IS something filling in the voids making the weave something very solid and without any chinks. The Callendor

barrier is one such mentioned in tDR when Egs is examining it from T'A'R.

So when they mention strength, I take that as not so much added force to a swing of a bat but rather a blow that doesn't

bend nor deflect when striking. The newtons are the same, but the transference is completely one sided. I am grasping for the

vocab, this english language is failing me... that's sad because it IS my native tongue. Why can't you just see my

thoughts.... Getting hit by a 100 mph pillow vs a cuendillar balloon of the same mass, speed, and size. since the pillow would self

absorb a great deal of the energy, it would be less effective as a weapon, where as the cuillendar ballon (same mass and

speed, mind you) would transfer all the energy that would otherwise be lost into the target. No difference in power but a far

more effective result. Or bailing water from a boat with a leaky bucket vs. a good bucket.

 

Well there are my thoughts... What do you guys and gals think?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Wow....

 

First of all, welcome to the forums.

 

Secondly, epic first post.

 

I have no head for maths, so I can't really comment on the accuracy, but it seems alright.

 

Correct or not, it is a very interesting way to calculate things, and I enjoyed reading it, even if I didn't understand the calculations themselves.

[Craig Jarvis]

Well, I figured most don't have the "joy" I do for math... that is why I gave the formulas, but did the math for most users. The thing is other than the exhaustion levels I think I have it fairly well balanced.. the thing that may not be right is how many seconds per cubic unit, you can channel before exhaustion sets in... I think that number may need to be lower, but we don't get enough accurately timed segments of a person with a known power level channeling unaided (no *'greal, no linking), to gauge the exhaustion point... also recovery is an unknown, exactly how long does it take to recover, plus I think the recovery is a j-curve. The further you run yourself out the harder it is to recover.

 

I may also be wrong about which is a multiplier and whish is purely an additive to the power. But that would explain why you can use an angreal and a sa'angreal together (tSR fatman statue and male CK). I really believe they are different, not just different powered versions. One may give a greater buffer before exhaustion, the other faster consumption, to varying degrees (i.e. a little of one but more of the other)

 

Thanks for the input and comment. I want someone to help flesh this out. Perhaps have Jason aproach Maria with this to see how the notes compare/contradict. It shouldn't trigger any RAFO's. But I will take the RAFO card anyway.

[Whizbang]

So, Rand = 26 and Morgase = 1?

 

I am not sure your adding of the powers is accurate. Two 5's should be able to handle a 6 (but who knows?). Also, as you stated, linking is not the same as the two channelers' strengths added together. It would be (guessing) about 70% of the two added together. Linking also supplies a buffer which prevents the channelers from drawing too much and burning themselves out. So 70%, or even 80% seems reasonable. According to the 70% guess, it would mean 13 9's would be required to overpower Rand. This matches with the custom, except that 13 of even th weakest should be able to pull it off. Obviously 13 1's would not be able to do much. Jump the % to 90%, though, and all 7's would still be too short, but a mix of 7's and 8's should do the trick. If the rule is actually "thirteen of the weakest Aes Sedai" instead of just women channelers, then this would be about right, if 7 is the threshold for Aes Sedai.

 

Where would you place Moraine, Cadsuane and Egwene on this scale?

[Danjaman]

1st of all, I think it's absurd to try and measure power levels and the strength of links (we tried that with Dragon Ball Z and we remember how stupid that got. (Goku starts around 2,000 and is at 2,000,000 in SS1, after that the writers stopped trying to measure it.))

 

2, As absurd as it is, I also think it is awesome! I'm glad I'm not the only person who is ALWAYS trying to measure and calculate this kind of stuff while reading WoT.

 

3. I applaud the effort, but citing your work would really help. I would like to see this PL scale you mentioned on 13th depository. I also really like the idea of the formula for area of a circle, it's amazing how much sense it makes mathematically and practically Although if it is that exponential, it makes me think "gee, why isn't everyone always permanently linked".

 

4. Aside from PL, *angreal strength, *angreal buffer, and link size - you also need to consider what weave the channeler is weaving when calculating exhaustion (or, what (s)he is UNweaving, in the case of Elayne in PoD when she unravels the gateway, possibly the greatest example of exhaustion in the series)

[Sid]

RJ himself had an undergraduate degree in physics from The Citadel, and you need a strong mind for math to get one of those. It's possible that he had a formula somewhere in his notes something like you came up with. It seems to follow with the examples you've stated.

 

However, I've heard several times that two women linking do not give them the same power as if they simply added up their strengths though. Now if that is supposed to mean that an 8 and an 8 linked are weaker than a 16 or an 8 (201) and another 8 (201) is less than (402) combined power, I don't know. Ispan and Falion were linked (both 8's) and Nyneave (18) was able to overcome them, though one escaped.

 

I do applaud your effort in making this.

 

Oh and here's a link the 13th depository's article.

http://13depository....th-ranking.html

[Craig Jarvis]

Whiz,

 

Thanks for posting.

First Rand is a 26 not a 36.

The Chart I used is published on the 13th depository. It is incredibly accurate and detailed, and has been discussed with Team Jordan. All AS who have had their powerlevel assessed by a channeler has been meticulously cross-referenced and added to the list. Here is the link: http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

As to my example Two 5's linked would be about on par with a 6, there is an exponential factor to the increasing powerlevel... Logain was amazed at Rand's power and he is not very much below Rand.

You flat percentage fails in the math. You may be able to find someplaces where it will work but not across the spectrum. And the lowest powerlevel to become an AS is 4 (Diagian)

[Craig Jarvis]

Wow thanks guys for the input.

 

As to the comparative between channelers, lets say you have 2 who are just below Elaida (12). and they think that if they link they will be almost twice as powerful as Elaida, once linked they find out that they are not 11*2 power level(1520), but rather 2 times the powerscore of an 11 (380*2=760), while yes they are more powerful than Elaida (452) and quite handily, they are not nearly twice her power. Now look in the books for examples of channelers who are at different power levels and see not only what they can do but for how long before exhaustion sets in.

 

But, this is not perfect, and may never be perfect. That is why I put it out there... so people can help develop the metric. There may be other metrics involved. I did mention the weave used and talents (barring a talent (which I would see as a multiplier of your power for specific weaves, also

ineffecient weaves would be a fractional multiplier for that weave)-- from original post)

[Craig Jarvis]

Whiz, one more thing... Linking only protects those who are not in control of the link... not the one who is leading. Sort of a sub-concious thing. You can only take what I have to give. I believe the leader can destroy themself. But no specific quote to back that up.

[elric]

there was a d20 table top RPG game for WoT.

 

i believe they explained how channelinmg /angril and circle work in there

[spoke]

I always figured it was more like resistor math rather than radius of circles. RJ had a degree in physics and would know about resistances in electrical circuits:

 

1/R_t = 1/R₁ + 1/R₂ + 1/R₃ + ...

or

R_t = 1/(1/R ₁ + 1/R ₂ + 1/R₃ + ...)

 

but since the series often revers to the channeler as a conduit or a source for the one POWER and Power(P) = Current(I) times Voltage(V) and Current(I) = Voltage(V) divided by Resistance® we get the following formulas

P=IV

I = V/R

and deriving these

P = V²/R

with the "Resistance" of the group combined with the equations of above you get a power for each person as P_i = V²/R

adding the Powers together you get the following:

P_t = V²/(1/R₁ + 1/R₂ + 1/R₃ + ...)

So with each person adding their powers together you get the same results as described in the books, where their added powers are increased, but not a 1+1 ratio.

 

Now with Angreal's and Sa'angreal's it becomes a little more simple. They modify the 'V' of the equation. Hence when Elayne described the turtle Angreal it's description was simply it was a weak Angreal that would double or triple a woman's power. This also aligns perfectly fine with these equations as well.

 

This is why when they used the bowl of the winds, the angreals were given to the women who were strongest.

[BFG]

I like the post above about resistor levels - but addressing the OP, I have a question and a suggestion.

 

I've only read this very quickly instead of a coffee break at work, so it may have been explained and I missed it, but - In your equation above pi*r^2 does r = the number of channelers or the strength of the channeler.

 

I think the point of the extra channelers is that it adds precision to the weave, so if you say that (and these are completely random numbers!) to create a gateway you need a 10, part of that can come from the precision of the weave and some from the power involved. So in teh case of Androl, who has a power of say 2, he has a precision level of say 8 for gateways in particular. Whereas the kinswoman, 4 linked may have a combined power of 6, and their linking increases to a 4 which allows them to reach the 10 level required. For 13 of the weakest aes sedai ever, there power level may still only be a 2, but their precision level goes up to a 8.

 

Maybe the circle theory needs a second term (and the resistor one as well)

 

I'll hopefully be able to come back to this topic later, but thanks it's fun :)

[Wandering Channeler]

Very well done. I like both the circle area and volume power calculations and the resistor calculations. Obviously the circle equations are simpler but also probably make more sense, mostly because the resistor equations have the extra variable. @ Spoke - what would the V be in regards to one power output?

 

OP - I've always liked the 13th depository article on this and am pretty familiar with it. Your examples are very good, would be nice to have some more timing examples from the book but does seems to depend on what the time variable is supposed to be. My addition comes from your point about angreal and sa'angreal. I think it makes perfect sense for them to function differently. I actually always wondered why they had different names yet supposedly had the same function. It is possible the names originially meant different functions and that has been forgotten through time. Multiplication vs addition would be a great explanation and goes well with the power surge of a weak channeler using the choden kal and how sa'angreal would seem so much more powerful than angreal. After reading your post the first thing that came to my mind is Moiraine and her new angreal braclet which she thinks is almost a sa'angreal. Her new power level is 2 where as she was a 12, but with the braclet she is about as strong as she used to be. It makes sense that if she is correct and it is an angreal and not a sa'angreal it is adding to her power level 452-12 = 440 power. If you are correct then she is very fortunate it is an angreal compared to a sa'angreal because it would have to be a gigantic multiplier to get her from 12 to 452: 452/12 = 37.7, which would be insane if given to a strong channeler such as Nynaeve who at a starting level of 18 (1017) making her 1017 * 37.7 = 38340.9, compared to if it just added to Nynaeve the 440 that it is adding to Moiraine making her a much more possible 1017 + 440 = 1457.

 

So my point is here is some more backup for the angreal/sa'angreal - addition/multiplication theory. There is almost no way Moiraine could have gotten a sa'angreal that would have a mulitpling power of 37.7, but does seem possible she got one of adding power 440. Of course it could always be a completely unthought of formula that has nothing to do with basic math.

[Craig Jarvis]

@Spoke

 

The voltage is very also a very interesting alalogy with parrallels. Perhaps that is because much is similar between Plumbing and electricity. However, you example doesn't give a metric for the increasing endurance of the channeler, based on the same number. Any ideas to help put that in line? I'm curious and want to hear more. Perhaps the parrallels can be resolved into the "Unified Theory of Channeling"?

 

@BFG

Two of the equations I listed above (pi*r^2 and 3/4pi*r^3) are for the area of a circle and the volume of a sphere respectively. The other formula to make sense of the endurance factor is to take the volume in cubic units and multiply it by 10 seconds (I think this may need to be lower, but perhaps not) then divide that result by the intensity of the channeling being done (the powerlevel being channeled at) then divide that by the number of seconds in a minute or hour, which ever makes the most sense. That would be their maximum channeling for a set time period. I think the 10 second value needs to be less probably. At Maradon, Rand throws down for an hour or so and destroys ~ 100,000 shadowspawn. He was tired, but not exhausted, I also do not know how rested he was to begin with (the boy has been busy). Morgase was able to keep the scarf fluttering for about an hour when they were buried in the rubble, but she may be strong in air (as weak as she is) and created a persistant flow of air she only needed to sustain or refresh every now and then (as weather is portrayed like that in the series). Using one of the five powers you are stronger in will, of course, have to come into it.

 

When Elayne mentions an agreal that will allow a woman to channel 2 to 3 times as much, this implies that angreal may be a multiplier, but the fact that she is vague about the amount, and she uses an indefinate "an Aes Sedai", this means it may be twice as much for some AS and three times as much for another... which would imply that the the Angreal adds a fixed amount.

This brings us to another discussion. She refers it to being weak, and mentions that it is only about 2 or 3 times the amount that can be channeled. Which is either my calculated score for channeling, which would only move a PL7 (153) up to a PL12+ (459 vs 453), or the power ranking, which would move a PL7 channeler up to old school Lanfear level of 21, which I do not think would be insignificant or a weak angreal at all. But a higher level AS (Bode Cauthon or Cadsuane level (14) it would only double them if it add 14 PLs. However if it only adds about 300 to my calculated score then a typical AS (7@153+300) would be tripled and a stronger AS (10@314+300) would feel doubled.

 

This would make angreal more valuable to the weaker channelers, and Sa'Angreal more valuable to more powerful channelers.

 

You see what I am saying. There is no way with a linear equation you can triple someone and it not be a significant Angreal. But she seems to be talking about the amount you can channel not the PL (which increases the amount you can channel on an exponential scale). The linking may be a different effect, much like the voltage formulas listed above by Spoke, I will have to do the math at several points in the chart and see. This is the only formula that I have found that works at multiple powerlevels. Alot of poeple have presented a formula that does not scale in a manner that matches the book series. I'm not saying that this one is perfect but it is close, and may ne as close as we can get with or without the Jordan notes.

[Craig Jarvis]

@Wandering Channeler

Thanks for the input and support. I think the voltage equation may help with the linking portion, I still have some math to do on that, comparing it to the examples in the books, etc. But few of those are "naked" circles (using no *greal).

 

I believe Moirane stated that she WOULD be as powerful as she was , if not more. That was what actually got me started on this. how could a multiplier of that degree not have allowed Lanfear to destroy ALL of Cairehen (sp, clearly, lol). But if it was a 450-500ish additive. then Lanfear would only be moved up to about PL24. Which would have matched or over-powered Rand as he still had not filled his potential, he had only just recently distinguished the individual flows and been able to grasp the source when he wanted.

 

If it had multiplied Lanfear ~40X the power then she would have had ~52,000ish power compared to Rand's 2,000. The CK would probably have put her about that high. But not the Angreal.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Impressive all around. Like watching an episode of the Big Rand Theory.

[BFG]

I didn't mean to imply that the power outputs were added linearly - I think their are 2 terms that may be added linearly (although in thinking further I changed my mind, see below).

 

The first of those terms is power (which is some sort of power (in the mathematical sense) term - or the one that you've come up with. You also need to include a scalar factor (if I understand your working above you've added the 2 level 5s together that results in about the power of a level 6 - but power is lost in a circle,) so there needs to be another term. The more people you add the more power you lose, so maybe multiply by a 0.95^n where n=the number of channelers in the circle.

 

The problem with looking at power alone is that no-one has been able to come up with a system where the 13 lowest level channelers can shield anybody else, yet this has been stated as being possible several times, although never attempted. Possible verification from LTT and Forsaken who have all said they'd be nervous around 13AS.

 

So I think their's a second term, precision and this may be where talents come into play. Let's say that a perfectly precise weave will always succeed and let's put it on a scale between 1 and 13, with 13 being a perfect weave. The max score any individual can have is a 12, but this is something we rarely see, say Androl and gateways are a 10. So although power and precision aren't necessarily linked, there is some correlation more powerful weaves require more precision, so a weaker channeler generally won't be able to practise the harder weaves. But add all those ones together and you reach a 13, perfect weave :)

 

[The only evidence I can think of that circles increase precision off hand is that LTT was worried before he sealed the bore the first time because he didn't think they would be able to place the seals accurately enough without the girls leading a circle.]

 

So in the shield scenario - 13 of the weakest channelers power output isn't enough to overcome Rand, but the fact that they reach perfect precision means they win.

 

 

Now in writing this post I've changed my mind. I don't think the two terms can be added, so for each weave their are two conditions that must be met - the power needed to create the weave (and have it sustain) and a precision level. I think so long as the precision level is met then it doesn't matter how much above it you go - until you hit 13, at this point it's game over.

 

 

For this idea there are certain things that are assumed - generally that the power required for most weaves are less than that of a circle of 13 1s combined - this means that on OP calculations 3s should be able to have the power to do each weave.

 

Secondly is that most channelers have a precision level that's geneally lower than their power level.

 

This could make sense - let's say that a gateway is a skilled weave and we know that 4 low-levelled kin can open one in a circle - this gives them a minimum precision of 4 for a gate weave. I don't think their are many weaves that are 'harder' so their's no reason for most channelers to progress beyond this (not to say that for some weaves they won't). I'm assuming that individual weavers generally don't have a skill level above 6, although talents may change this in specific areas, so Eg and El combined wouldn't reach the 13 required to shield Rand on their own, but throw in another channeler and maybe they could, even though their combined power levels are nowhere near Rands.

 

I suspect that in reality it's even more complicated in that there would be some interaction between the two - where increased precision actually needs less power to complete then someone with less precision but more power (best I can do is suggest thinking of Naruto and Sakura learning to walk up trees however far back that was).

 

And now my head's spinning, so I'll throw it open to more informed people.

 

EDIT to add, I think you're right about the difference between angreal and sa'angreal.

[BFG]

Impressive all around. Like watching an episode of the Big Rand Theory.

LOL

[jsbrads]

noticed Rand describing callandor, 10-100 times, very vague.

on Choen dal equally vague and never really describes little man?

Elayne with new angreal from Ebou Dar very specific women with hair less than 2, turtle more than 2 also note turtle not a strong angreal, so craig jarvis?

 

also remember Nynaeve watching circle of Aes Sedai with sa'angreal, thinks she is equally stong???

 

I don't believe there is a real formula, and I'm not calling RJ lazy, writing a story with incredible complexity and natural laws kept him busy enough

[Craig Jarvis]

@jsbrads

 

(edited for WTF order was I typing this in?!??!)

 

Callandor, is Flawed. It has no buffer against drawing too much and your control swings wildly while using it. A poor example due to its unique and flawed nature.

 

Perhaps how much it increases your ability to channel (how fast you can spend) and how big your reserves before exchaustion (how deep your wallet) are two seperate and controllable features during creation of an angreal. Perhaps they are of channelers as well, but no examples of that with people.

 

There may be no formula, true enough, it could all be literary prose, but I believe Jordan has notes that he used to keep himself in line.. But for the sake of future video games et.al. we need a formula that is both visual and functional. Nyn and the healing ceremony. I forgot about that one... lets look at the power of the AS involved, plus Vera's rod as the Sa'Angreal. I will dig up the info and post in a bit. That was book three and Nyneve had only been accepted and never a novice for a few months. Siuan may not have turned the dial up to "11" yet when nyneve made that statement, as the added endurance was more important than the added power. Alot of factors could be involved for nyneve's misconception. The only list I can find is that there were 10 AS in the Circle and one was Siuan who led with the Sa'Angreal. This could have been an over statement on nyneve's part... probably the closest she could compare herself to. There is a discrepency there as Siuan led the circle, but she isn't a skilled healer. Perhaps she did the heavy lifting and passed the lead to the best healer during part of it then got the lead back to finish up, but that is doubtful. There are several discrepencies in that scene.

 

 

Remember: Weak channelers do not get access to angreal and sa'angreal in the White tower... they get to make tea. Kinda like a Colonel at the Pentagon.

 

@BFG

I understand what you are saying but the math has too many variables... How am I to work out a list of the 26 powerlevels when I have to make up a variable in the equation?

 

As to the LTT and circles thing... it was not LTT that was worried, it was LPD the Amyrlin. LTT did it anyway as he KNEW he could place the webs accurately.

However there is an X-Factor in linking, But other than an adding of the powers, we don't have a great deal of info. In Mixed-gender circles there is a more solid, dense-ness described to the weaves. I could see a greater density (not really adding force to an act, but making the act harder to resist, think same damage, but with an armor piercing effect), and a greater strength (by strength, I mean where a weave might distort under resistance normally it would hold shape better, think Nyneve attempting to sever Moggy in tSR. Her weave blunted in the attempt and she merely shielded her).

 

Prescision level.. there have been a few channelers that has been described as nimble weavers. But that has yet to bear any fruit in the story... Other than that most of those who are listed as Nible in weaving flows typically are good at doing complicated things more effeciently or at lesser powerlevels than is otherwise needed. LTT\Rand has few channeling talents other than being well balanced in the powers, max power, he can block gateways, and is a nimble weaver for a man. LTT can do any weave that is not talent driven otherwise. and other than blocking a gateway, any sufficiently powerful male channeler can do any weave he can. I guess he can also read residues, which is a rare talent among women, men unknown.

[Craig Jarvis]

@spoke

 

If you don't want to do the math maybe get me started the way you want the figures to run with an example or two worked out and I will take it from there and post the results... I just am not following until I get real (or fictional case as it is) number in teh formulas.

[jsbrads]

I thought about that also, I don't think what they did with mat was healing or a yellow would have led, the channeling was seperating the darkness in dagger from mat so... anyone may have been a good fit because it didn't fit under talent, so someone strong, deft, intelligent...

[Craig Jarvis]

I directed others from the re-read and spoiler thread on tor.com to join us over here.

There are some who have offered insight and input that I don't wish to leave out.

[Darksmoon]

I like the flow of the power being similar to a pipe. Each character has a larger or smaller conduit to tap into the one power.

[BFG]

@BFG

I understand what you are saying but the math has too many variables... How am I to work out a list of the 26 powerlevels when I have to make up a variable in the equation?

 

As to the LTT and circles thing... it was not LTT that was worried, it was LPD the Amyrlin. LTT did it anyway as he KNEW he could place the webs accurately.

However there is an X-Factor in linking, But other than an adding of the powers, we don't have a great deal of info. In Mixed-gender circles there is a more solid, dense-ness described to the weaves. I could see a greater density (not really adding force to an act, but making the act harder to resist, think same damage, but with an armor piercing effect), and a greater strength (by strength, I mean where a weave might distort under resistance normally it would hold shape better, think Nyneve attempting to sever Moggy in tSR. Her weave blunted in the attempt and she merely shielded her).

 

Prescision level.. there have been a few channelers that has been described as nimble weavers. But that has yet to bear any fruit in the story... Other than that most of those who are listed as Nible in weaving flows typically are good at doing complicated things more effeciently or at lesser powerlevels than is otherwise needed. LTT\Rand has few channeling talents other than being well balanced in the powers, max power, he can block gateways, and is a nimble weaver for a man. LTT can do any weave that is not talent driven otherwise. and other than blocking a gateway, any sufficiently powerful male channeler can do any weave he can. I guess he can also read residues, which is a rare talent among women, men unknown.

 

Except the power loss is a real thing:

 

During the healing of Mat the circle includes 10 AS and the wand of destiny (can't remember name, but very powerful), so in the following table I've worked through your initial method and the power loss method, assuming that they're all at the same level (I've used several power levels because I'm not sure where the channelers fall in your table). So first column states power level, second column is added levels, third is including the wand of destiny (can't remember actual name), it's a very powerful sa'angreal, but I've limited it to *3 else it gets really silly. Nyn says during the healing something like 'I couldn't channel half that' the implication was that she'd come close. So even if the AS channelers were only level 8, Nyn's power would still be off the charts, including a crude power loss and she would be close to a 19.

 

I think some more work would need to be done, but in terms of power levels, I don't think you can use your original formula and ignore the power loss factor.

 

 

I know that LPD was against it, but LTT would have preferred for a woman to create a circle, because he was worried that if they channeled seperately that they wouldn't be able to place the seals accurately enough and thus risked blowing apart all of creation. He did it anyway, because after the access keys to the Choedan Kal were lost in lands taken over by the Shadow there was no other choice. It was just meant as an example of circles increasing the precision of a weave - reason being that that is the only explanation I can come up with to explain how 13 of the weakest channelers can overpower anyone, no matter how much stronger and even if that person is already holding the source.

 

 

If you want to keep the precision level simple, for gaming purposes, I'd just say that all AS are level 1, a circle of 13, or a circle that also includes a man reaches level 2, and decide on the weaves that this effects. So for a shield - once you reach a level 2, strength becomes immaterial and the weave trumps the defence of the other channeler. Other than that, increases in circles just increases level of Power.

 

Equally well, the shield thing has never been tested in the books, so it could just be one of those things that AS say because they believe it's true. Equally well LTT does get nervous around multiple female AS, despite the fact that even linked he can overpower most of them.

 

One of the plans for ending the war quickly, proposed by Lews Therin, centered around a direct attack on the Bore itself. Seven "focus points" (there seems no better translation from the old tongue, although they are obviously the Seals of Legend) were constructed of cuendillar. A raiding force -- so they called it, though even in the light of recent past events it must still seem a large army to most people of this day -- a raiding force consisting of some twenty thousand soldiers to provide security and a circle of seven female Aes Sedai and six male (the minimum number believed necessary, and all the strongest who could be found) would Travel to Shayol Ghul , the one place on earth where what has been called "a thinness in the Pattern" makes the Bore detectable, and there to implant seals held by the focus points which would close up the Bore and shut the Dark One from the world once more.

 

Worse, several experts claimed that if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it open, freeing the Dark One completely.

 

Lews Therin's plan was too rash, too dangerous, and no woman who agreed to the Concord would take part in it. As precise placement of the seals was widely thought to require a circle, that apparently killed the plan, since men cannot create a circle, but can only be brought into one created by women.

 

With Latra Posae's opposition continuing in the face of these events (4), and the female Aes Sedai holding to their pledge and thus making use of a circle impossible (the lines of division had hardened to a point where many female Aes Sedai refused to speak to male Aes Sedai, and the reverse as well), Lews Therin resolved to carry out his plan without the approval of, or even approaching, the Hall. Plainly it was going to be impossible to hold the huge sa'angreal long enough for the access ter'angreal to be smuggled out. In Lews Therin's view, there was no longer any choice.

 

Above from the Strike at Shayol Ghul