Elayne's Warders as of the end of Chapter 1 (fully spoiled)

[hjustinpace]

The warder bond brings the power to compel (a non-channeler). The modern Aes Sedai are right to liken it to rape.

[putts]

Bonding for the heck of bonding ... I suppose ... could be akin to rape. But bonding to save a life is far from it. The end result is not the pleasure of the bonder at the cost of the bondee. The end result is saving the life of the new Warder. Greatly different than rape.

[FanoLan]

Wouldn't Nynaeve have noticed and said something if Elayne had bonded Talmanes? I don't know if there is a way to tell that somebody was bonded, but if it had the effect of healing him, then surely Nynaever would have noticed something when she tried to heal him...

 

Sometimes we see a bonding recognized by a third party, but it's been presented as a compilation of visible signs IIRC. Egwene realizes Siuan has bonded Bryne, but does not think about weaves or residues. Rand recognizes the same bond but was double-thirteen-AS-circle shielded at the time (if i remember that correctly). Maybe someone else knows whether a delving would reveal a Warder bond without a specific search.

 

From the scene with Birgitte, the bonding didn't fully heal her right away like a Healing would. Since Nyn's Healing had already failed on Birgitte, we know the process by which the bonding kept Birgitte alive is functionally different. Unless she was specifically looking for the Bond, and particularly when faced with Talmanes deteriorating body, Nyn might not have noticed. The Bond would have merely strenghened Talmanes a bit, like with Egwene and Gawyn, until Healing was available.

[Yamahako]

Elayne was looking for a way to tie the band to Caemlyn... it would be a good Deas Demar (apologize for the spelling) move.

[pepe Al'thor]

"Mat has always been, in my mind, the village prankster. That, by definition, makes him more joker than rogue."

 

+1, this is how i have alwys viewed Mat. The village prankster, the troublemaker. I believe this is how RJ intended Mat to come off as, he's the one person trying to avoid and ignore everything because hé would rather much be gambling in a tavern with à girl on his knee.To me, this is what makes his character hilarious.

[driedraspberry]

There is always the option of freeing him of the bond afterwards. If that's what he wants anyway. I bet he wouldn't.

[Suttree]

As a big, big fan of Talmanes, I'd be disappointed ... but it'd stick with Elayne's character so I'm not gonna act like it'd be the worst to ever happen. For all the people who cry over what BS does that is not in character with what RJ did and then threaten to stop reading if Elayne acts exactly as you'd imagine her acting with RJ doing the writing ...? Well, I guess we all have our own issues we have to deal with in our own way.

 

To the other thought that popped into this thread, Mat has always been, in my mind, the village prankster. That, by definition, makes him more joker than rogue. Some readers probably want him to be the rogue/crafty fighter ... but I don't feel that's how RJ originally wrote him. Re-read 100 pages into EotW and it's apparent. Whatever he becomes, he is, first and foremost, RJ's comedy relief. That's what makes the "middle" part of EotW so depressing (like good middles should be ... when all hope seems lost) is that the one guy who always found a way to have fun and not lose his youthful exuberance loses both because of the dagger.

 

You could easily make the argument that the joker did turn into a rogue ... but to say that the change totally wiped out who he was in the beginning is to forget who RJ first created him to be. We all change, and yet we all stay the same. I'm sure the same could be said for Mat. If anything, I think BS forgot that Mat was the joker AND the rogue.

 

You're right. The first time you meet him he and some other dude had caught a badger to use in a prank on someone. And, if you read carefully, you'll notice that Perrin and Rand think of each other as being good with women for some time before Mat even comes into the woman picture.

 

Not sure how any of us would be defined by our 14, 15 yo self? Sure there are certain things in regards to your inherent character that might stay but we clearly see Mat grow into his role as a rogue. He is called this by people in world once he becomes secure in himself after seeing life outside the 2Rs. I for one think Setalle Anan is as fine a judge of character as we can find.

 

KoD Ch.9

Mistress Anan laughed at him. a fine rich laugh. “You are a rogue. my Lord. Now. some rogues make fine husbands, once they’ve been tamed a little around the edges-my Jasfer was a rogue when I met him-but you still think you can nibble a pastry here, nibble a pastry there, then dance off to the next.”

 

Also as RJ said...

 

I had a thought about how I wanted those people to grow. The first vision that came to me was the ending of the last book. The next things that came to me was Emond's Field. And I realized the book was going to take these people to turn them into those people you see in the last scene in the last book. So I knew how I was going to change them.

 

Now Mat could have been a joker as a child but Brandon practically has him in motley coming up with absurd back stories just to name one example. We have Brandon by his own admission losing the essence of the character by trying to make him "too funny". It all plays into the lack of subtlety, there could have been a nod to his younger self without the heavy handed, wink wink style of bringing back the badger trick. There are just far too many moments that are flat out cringe worthy where Mat is concerned.

[David Selig]

Totally different case than Birgitte. Birgitte was bonded only after Healing didn't work. No reason to do it with Talmanes when Nyn was coming in a minute and Healing could work on him.

 

The text does not indicate Elayne knew of Nyn's imminent arrival. Seems specifically tied to Egwene's recognition of Nyn's voice and we see no similar reaction from Elayne. We know Talmanes is in dire straits and after the Delving Elayne certainly knew his time was ending. Given the choice of watching someone die, or effecting the only method she knows to retrieve someone from the brink, I do not think Elayne would hesitate. She is still the same person who tended ailing birds and stray cats while Daughter Heir.

Sumeko, who according to Elayne herself, is a superior Healer than Nynaeve, and the other Kinswomen, who specialize in Healing, were right nearby, Healing the other wounded. And Elayne had already seen that Egwene sent Gawyn to bring Aes Sedai to help with the healing. There was really no reason to bond Talmanes.

[ArveduiEreinion]

Egwene couldn't do anything for Talmanes (beyond her skill in healing) but why couldn't Elayne do something for Talmanes (say, preserve the embers of life) until a more skilled healer showed up? That being said, I hadn't considered the possibility of Elayne bonding Talmanes to save his life. It could be and I like the tie-in to the Band's future role in Andor.

[shortkut]

I enjoyed how people gave their own opinions on the characters and that they liked what BS did with them and they are told that try are wrong. What are we going to do next, ban people who say CoT is their favorite book?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Let's keep this on topic guys. No more about the Pros and Cons of Brandon's characters. There is already a thread about that.

[LoLPoR]

I wouldn't be surprised if she bonded Talmanes but I doubt it. I think it would be rape as the man would be sentenced to madness and death if anything happens to Elayne. Did anyone else think of that horrible side effect. He feels everything she feels, pain, joy, sex, fear. That would be terrible, lets face it fellas who wants to know every urge and thought and desire of a woman they don't even really know.

[FanoLan]

The readers are not privy to Elayne's PoV so it's only speculation as to what she knew about the Healing efforts taking place around her. The text specifies she's conversing with Guybon as Egwene approaches. It's easy to imagine Elayne was primarily focused on getting a report from Guybon; she may or may not have surveyed the situation as calmly as Egwene manages. The distance between the gateways is not clear, but there's no doubt Elayne and Sumeko are not elbow to elbow and no one else is tending to Talmanes.

 

Egwene and Guybon both requested Elayne's help, Talmanes was nearly dead from the Fade-blade and no one else was helping. It's certainly not explicit and there are good arguments against, but I think it's at least possible.

 

 

 

 

It's challenging for me to read all of the haphazard comparisons to rape, on this thread and other threads on this board. I would wager (heavy odds too) that no one making such a casual comparison has ever been the victim of said crime. No one in their family either (at least known). If anyone can make such a comparison and think it's somehow legit, or read the comparison and agree with it, some volunteer time at a vicitim's shelter might do you good.

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if she bonded Talmanes but I doubt it. I think it would be rape as the man would be sentenced to madness and death if anything happens to Elayne. Did anyone else think of that horrible side effect. He feels everything she feels, pain, joy, sex, fear. That would be terrible, lets face it fellas who wants to know every urge and thought and desire of a woman they don't even really know.

 

Are you speaking from experience or just cavalierly parroting what you've read elsewhere in this thread or on this board?

 

 

Bonding for the heck of bonding ... I suppose ... could be akin to rape. But bonding to save a life is far from it. The end result is not the pleasure of the bonder at the cost of the bondee. The end result is saving the life of the new Warder. Greatly different than rape.

 

Don't give in. The two are not comparable, at all. Regardless of the customary thinking in the White Tower. It's not similar, at all. Hold strong.

 

 

The warder bond brings the power to compel (a non-channeler). The modern Aes Sedai are right to liken it to rape.

 

No, no they are not. Not even a little bit. Transferring fantasy world logic to your acutal, personal world-view is dangerous.

[Barid Bel Medar]

watch the multi-posts, you can edit your post or multi-quote in the one post. If you could do that in the future, it makes the thread a lot neater and easier to navigate.

[FanoLan]

watch the multi-posts, you can edit your post or multi-quote in the one post. If you could do that in the future, it makes the thread a lot neater and easier to navigate.

Sorry BBM, I tried to ignore the repeated references but ultimately lost patience and heatedly multi-replied. Appreciate the effort you all put forth. Will do better going forward .... better to never post in frustration/anger, I know .... just lost my cool a bit.

[Barid Bel Medar]

watch the multi-posts, you can edit your post or multi-quote in the one post. If you could do that in the future, it makes the thread a lot neater and easier to navigate.

Sorry BBM, I tried to ignore the repeated references but ultimately lost patience and heatedly multi-replied. Appreciate the effort you all put forth. Will do better going forward .... better to never post in frustration/anger, I know .... just lost my cool a bit.

 

No problem, your not getting reprimanded here. Your posts are fine, they break no conduct rules, just remember for the future to make it easy for everyone.

 

Edit: I have merged the posts into one for you.

[TristanWebb]

Why would Elayne bond him? Either he would be healed in a few minutes which makes it close to useless, or he dies and she has to go through the mourning. It isn't as though her solution to every problem is bonding, she only did it as an extreme last resort to save a HotH. Talmanes is a nobody to her, she might feel bad about him dying, but she has watched many people die around her.

[shortkut]

Oh no! He stubbed his toe! Time to bond him!!!!

[FanoLan]

Why would Elayne bond him? Either he would be healed in a few minutes which makes it close to useless, or he dies and she has to go through the mourning. It isn't as though her solution to every problem is bonding, she only did it as an extreme last resort to save a HotH. Talmanes is a nobody to her, she might feel bad about him dying, but she has watched many people die around her.

 

Did you read the initial post? Your question was already answered. And what's up with the lame straw-man argument? Nowhere did I even intimate it's her "solution to every problem."

 

Apparently, one of us has misread the texts as far as Elayne is concerned. Your conclusion regarding her response to essentially holding a dying man in her arms does not gibe with the character as she has been presented. I don't see Elayne in a circumstance where she would be able prevent the death of someone she knows but instead of helping, she chooses to just let them die. Elayne's compassion has been well established through the books and if she was unaware of imminent Healing, I contend she would do something rather than merely sit there and let Talmanes die.

[jmniles]

Honestly this seems like a bit of a stretch. With Birgitte, Elayne had been talking to her quite a bit. For her to Bond a friend that was on the verge of dying after healing by one of the most skillful people she knew is much more understandable than her bonding a person she barely knows. And for her to do it for the possible advantage it gives her with a tie to the Band would be horrendous.

[FanoLan]

Honestly this seems like a bit of a stretch. With Birgitte, Elayne had been talking to her quite a bit. For her to Bond a friend that was on the verge of dying after healing by one of the most skillful people she knew is much more understandable than her bonding a person she barely knows. And for her to do it for the possible advantage it gives her with a tie to the Band would be horrendous.

 

I agree the circumstances are quite different and do not mean to imply any more of a similarity than a last-resort action to save a life. Egwene thought Talmanes dead. He was twice wounded by a fade blade and suffering the repurcussions for a while. Undoubtedly, death was imminent. If Elayne was aware of Nyn's approach, or surmised Sumeko was at hand, I agree she would probably just wait.

 

The political tie-in to the Band would be purely an unintended consequence IMO. As much of a stretch as this theory may be, assigning an ulterior motive to Elayne would stretch the possibility beyond my concurrence.

[TristanWebb]

She bonded Birgitte because Healing was done and failed, there was nothing wrong with her except that she wasn't bonded to the world. With Talmanes, the bonding would do next to nothing to help his condition, maybe give him an extra minute or two to live. The only time she -would- bond him is if she know Nyn ect was 5 minutes away and he only had 2 minutes to live, other than that there is absolutely no reason to bond him and many not to.

[yoniy0]

I agree. Bonding is a deeply personal thing. You don't just go around bonding anyone who might benefit from it, even if there's a chance it would save their lives. You might do it if it were the last measure to save their lives, but that's a horse of a different color.

[FanoLan]

She bonded Birgitte because Healing was done and failed, there was nothing wrong with her except that she wasn't bonded to the world. With Talmanes, the bonding would do next to nothing to help his condition, maybe give him an extra minute or two to live. The only time she -would- bond him is if she know Nyn ect was 5 minutes away and he only had 2 minutes to live, other than that there is absolutely no reason to bond him and many not to.

I agree. Bonding is a deeply personal thing. You don't just go around bonding anyone who might benefit from it, even if there's a chance it would save their lives. You might do it if it were the last measure to save their lives, but that's a horse of a different color.

 

Seems to me the bolded are accurate representations of the very scenario under discussion. Not the specific timeline suggested by BenevolentCow necessarily, but the same framework. Faced with no other tool sufficient for the task, Elayne did the only thing she knew to do with any chance of succesfully extending Talmanes' life until a more proficient healer took over; she bonded him.

[yoniy0]

See, now, I disagree that it could be considered a last measure when they are surrounded by talented healers, even though time was short.