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FanoLan

Elayne's Warders as of the end of Chapter 1 (fully spoiled)

  

70 members have voted

  1. 1. Through AMoL CH. 1, how many Warders for Elayne?

    • Two and only two - Birgitte and Rand
      57
    • Threeee - poor Talmanes might rather be dead
      7
    • More than threee - Guybon proved irresistable after all, not to mention ....
      6


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When Aludra's dragons are delivered to the Fields of Merrilor, Guybon insists Talmanes receive Healing first. Elayne kneels beside Talmanes, with Egwene joining her, and then proceeds to Delve Talmanes after hearing him draw a "ragged breath." Guybon mentions Thakan'dar blades, Egwene says it's beyond either of their ability and then hears Nyn's voice above the throng. Rising to go, Egwene instructs Elayne, "“Do what you can for him” before rushing away to induce Nyn's help.

 

We know Elayne is better than the average AS at weaving in general and was already holding saidar in order to Delve. Having spun at least two Warder bonds beforehand, she would not take too long to perform the weave again. Nyn and Eg conversate for only a short stretch, but perhaps long enough for Elayne to resort to her best trick for saving a life, make that her only trick since her Healing is barely enough for a black eye.

 

There have been foreshadowings about a third Warder for Elayne, mostly about Guybon. Also, when Nalesean questions Mat about becoming a Warder in LoC, Mat immediately deflects the question to Talmanes about "being an Aes Sedai." Not only is that our first insight to Mat's appreciation of Talmanes' sense of humor, but I think it foreshadowed Talmanes becoming the next thing to AS and that is a Warder.

 

Similarly to Elayne/Birgitte and Egwene/Gawyn, the author(s) are driving home the benefits of the Warder bond in anticipation of the Dragon Reborn's heavy reliance thereon during TG and most particularly during the "wait for the Light."

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I guess there is other foreshadowing of Talmanes = Warder, though it would be a clumsy one. When Mat made the ridiculous back-stories for everyone going to Trustair in TGS he had Talmanes posing as a Warder using one of Joline's Warder's cloaks. In that terrible, terrible, awful, stupid, vomit-inducing, headdesk section of the text that I wish I could balefire from my memory.

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Please not. If anything, revert the man into what he was pre-Sanderson. He was perfect as he was, there is no need to change him further by adding a Warder bond into the mix.

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what i was thinking is i remeber Min seeing calindor being held in onix color hand. What is chance that Talmanes is one who that hand belong to. After that merdraal blade effect making him turn into half black.

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None. Using one of the strongest sa'angreal ever built as a normal sword is equivalent to using a katana to peel apples. You can do it, but why the hell would you want to?

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I guess there is other foreshadowing of Talmanes = Warder, though it would be a clumsy one. When Mat made the ridiculous back-stories for everyone going to Trustair in TGS he had Talmanes posing as a Warder using one of Joline's Warder's cloaks. In that terrible, terrible, awful, stupid, vomit-inducing, headdesk section of the text that I wish I could balefire from my memory.

 

I must have succesfully purged that backstory from my memory, but yes another foreshadowing. Wouldn't be the worst fate, given Rand Therin and Birgitte would likely bear most of the burden. Given the choice, I think Talmanes would accede to bonding rather than death.

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I guess there is other foreshadowing of Talmanes = Warder, though it would be a clumsy one. When Mat made the ridiculous back-stories for everyone going to Trustair in TGS he had Talmanes posing as a Warder using one of Joline's Warder's cloaks. In that terrible, terrible, awful, stupid, vomit-inducing, headdesk section of the text that I wish I could balefire from my memory.

 

Disagree completely. This chapter may be my favorite POV from Matt in the series. He was actually playing the fool, instead of using his bland, monotone, complaining, voice that he seemed to adopt for the entire middle of the series.

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Hasn't Warder bonds been described as a close connection? That forced bonding is like rape? If so... You just suggested that Elyane just raped Talmanes.

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I guess there is other foreshadowing of Talmanes = Warder, though it would be a clumsy one. When Mat made the ridiculous back-stories for everyone going to Trustair in TGS he had Talmanes posing as a Warder using one of Joline's Warder's cloaks. In that terrible, terrible, awful, stupid, vomit-inducing, headdesk section of the text that I wish I could balefire from my memory.

 

Disagree completely. This chapter may be my favorite POV from Matt in the series. He was actually playing the fool, instead of using his bland, monotone, complaining, voice that he seemed to adopt for the entire middle of the series.

 

I think you're going to be very much alone with that opinion. Hinderstrap, the Lord Crimson episode in TOM and chapter 11 in AMOL are why almost everyone who liked the Mat RJ wrote detests the way BS portrays him. They are about as subtle as a piece of brick.

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Hasn't Warder bonds been described as a close connection? That forced bonding is like rape? If so... You just suggested that Elyane just raped Talmanes.

 

Well, if bonding someone in an effort to save their life while they are unable to give or refuse consent is rape, then she already raped Birgitte. Why would she stop at Talmanes?

 

Or, some perspective could highlight the difference between what is being described and rape. Such as intent, and the potential impermanency of effect.

 

"Rape" gets thrown around far too casually, I think. Overuse (and misapplication) dilute the effect of what should be a powerfully repellent idea.

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Hasn't Warder bonds been described as a close connection? That forced bonding is like rape? If so... You just suggested that Elyane just raped Talmanes.

 

You could look at it that way I suppose. But then, at least Elayne hasn't been sexist about it given Birgitte. Compared with death, life as a Warder-without-consent seems an attractive option.

 

ETA: General concurrence with 'phyte's comment and particularly forceful agreement on the last sentence.

Edited by FanoLan

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I guess there is other foreshadowing of Talmanes = Warder, though it would be a clumsy one. When Mat made the ridiculous back-stories for everyone going to Trustair in TGS he had Talmanes posing as a Warder using one of Joline's Warder's cloaks. In that terrible, terrible, awful, stupid, vomit-inducing, headdesk section of the text that I wish I could balefire from my memory.

 

Disagree completely. This chapter may be my favorite POV from Matt in the series. He was actually playing the fool, instead of using his bland, monotone, complaining, voice that he seemed to adopt for the entire middle of the series.

 

I think you're going to be very much alone with that opinion. Hinderstrap, the Lord Crimson episode in TOM and chapter 11 in AMOL are why almost everyone who liked the Mat RJ wrote detests the way BS portrays him. They are about as subtle as a piece of brick.

 

I really enjoy RJ's portrayal of his charecters but I feel like they all sound the same. You can not pick up a random book to a random chapter, and tell who's POV it is within two lines. You should be able to do this. BS actually gave the characters distinctive voices. Matt is a joker, but is seen as simple by those around him. He never said anything funny from like book 2 - 10 and he sure as hell never sounded like he was a country kid speaking to lords(which is what he is).

 

The wonder girls were the worst. Elyane sounded like Egg, who sounded like Avi, who sounded like everyone else. The only one who was distinctive was Nyn, and that is why people either hate her or love her.

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I really enjoy RJ's portrayal of his charecters but I feel like they all sound the same. You can not pick up a random book to a random chapter, and tell who's POV it is within two lines. You should be able to do this. BS actually gave the characters distinctive voices. Matt is a joker, but is seen as simple by those around him. He never said anything funny from like book 2 - 10 and he sure as hell never sounded like he was a country kid speaking to lords(which is what he is).

 

To say you are in the minority with that first bolded part would be an understatement. Further BS himself admitted he was off on Mat and he his a rogue not some jester or joker.

 

BS

I didn't understand Mat. I tried so hard to make him funny, I wrote the HIM out of him".
Edited by Suttree

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I really enjoy RJ's portrayal of his charecters but I feel like they all sound the same. You can not pick up a random book to a random chapter, and tell who's POV it is within two lines.

Sorry, but I find this pretty funny. Some of the people around here might understand.

Matt is a joker, but is seen as simple by those around him. He never said anything funny from like book 2 - 10 and he sure as hell never sounded like he was a country kid speaking to lords(which is what he is).

 

The wonder girls were the worst. Elyane sounded like Egg, who sounded like Avi, who sounded like everyone else. The only one who was distinctive was Nyn, and that is why people either hate her or love her.

You know what? They should have just changed his name to Matt in the last two books, just to underline what's already italicized and bolded.

 

As for the rest, I guess that's just like, your opinion, man.

 

 

 

(Sorry to derail the thread)

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what i was thinking is i remeber Min seeing calindor being held in onix color hand. What is chance that Talmanes is one who that hand belong to. After that merdraal blade effect making him turn into half black.

 

I think he turned back into pale once Ny healed him.

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Totally different case than Birgitte. Birgitte was bonded only after Healing didn't work. No reason to do it with Talmanes when Nyn was coming in a minute and Healing could work on him.

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Totally different case than Birgitte. Birgitte was bonded only after Healing didn't work. No reason to do it with Talmanes when Nyn was coming in a minute and Healing could work on him.

 

I started to take a position defending Elayne here - then I realized that I was defending an absurd hypothetical. Because you are correct - Elayne hasn't bonded Talmanes, and I don't think she would ever misinterpret Egwene's instructions that way.

 

But if, hypothetically, she had bonded him with the explicit intent of saving his life, then equating it to rape is simply wrong. That was my only point.

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There is some foreshadowing in LOC when Talmanes asks Mat if he has ever wondered what it might be like to be a Warder.

 

That said, I will be physically ill if they make Talmanes a Warder.

 

It will be the final straw. The wacky adventures of Queen Moron and Warder Talmanes with their zany crew of Lord Golden and Master Crimson!!!

 

Id be out of options. Id have to shoot myself.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King

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Totally different case than Birgitte. Birgitte was bonded only after Healing didn't work. No reason to do it with Talmanes when Nyn was coming in a minute and Healing could work on him.

 

The text does not indicate Elayne knew of Nyn's imminent arrival. Seems specifically tied to Egwene's recognition of Nyn's voice and we see no similar reaction from Elayne. We know Talmanes is in dire straits and after the Delving Elayne certainly knew his time was ending. Given the choice of watching someone die, or effecting the only method she knows to retrieve someone from the brink, I do not think Elayne would hesitate. She is still the same person who tended ailing birds and stray cats while Daughter Heir.

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There is some foreshadowing in LOC when Talmanes asks Mat if he has ever wondered what it might be like to be a Warder.

 

That said, I will be physically ill if they make Talmanes a Warder.

 

It will be the final straw. The wacky adventures of Queen Moron and Warder Talmanes with their zany crew of Lord Golden and Master Crimson!!!

 

Id be out of options. Id have to shoot myself.

 

 

Fish

 

Wow, dramatic much? Yeah, I know hyperbole and all, but for anyone who may have had to deal with that issue in their real life experience, well, casual references to self-induced gunshot wounds just come across as callous and juvenile. For future reference and all, when the fate of a fictional character again provokes you to contemplate said statement.

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It's totally ok to be dramatic FanoLan. This is a series that, for the past decade or so, has tied so many of us up in it. Hence, all of us comtemplating someone else's THEORY on a forum. That said though, if this was the case with Talmanes becoming Elayne's warder I'd think strongly of a short drop and a sudden stop.

 

Fred

Edited by Fred Cauthon

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Wouldn't Nynaeve have noticed and said something if Elayne had bonded Talmanes? I don't know if there is a way to tell that somebody was bonded, but if it had the effect of healing him, then surely Nynaever would have noticed something when she tried to heal him...

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As a big, big fan of Talmanes, I'd be disappointed ... but it'd stick with Elayne's character so I'm not gonna act like it'd be the worst to ever happen. For all the people who cry over what BS does that is not in character with what RJ did and then threaten to stop reading if Elayne acts exactly as you'd imagine her acting with RJ doing the writing ...? Well, I guess we all have our own issues we have to deal with in our own way.

 

To the other thought that popped into this thread, Mat has always been, in my mind, the village prankster. That, by definition, makes him more joker than rogue. Some readers probably want him to be the rogue/crafty fighter ... but I don't feel that's how RJ originally wrote him. Re-read 100 pages into EotW and it's apparent. Whatever he becomes, he is, first and foremost, RJ's comedy relief. That's what makes the "middle" part of EotW so depressing (like good middles should be ... when all hope seems lost) is that the one guy who always found a way to have fun and not lose his youthful exuberance loses both because of the dagger.

 

You could easily make the argument that the joker did turn into a rogue ... but to say that the change totally wiped out who he was in the beginning is to forget who RJ first created him to be. We all change, and yet we all stay the same. I'm sure the same could be said for Mat. If anything, I think BS forgot that Mat was the joker AND the rogue.

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As a big, big fan of Talmanes, I'd be disappointed ... but it'd stick with Elayne's character so I'm not gonna act like it'd be the worst to ever happen. For all the people who cry over what BS does that is not in character with what RJ did and then threaten to stop reading if Elayne acts exactly as you'd imagine her acting with RJ doing the writing ...? Well, I guess we all have our own issues we have to deal with in our own way.

 

To the other thought that popped into this thread, Mat has always been, in my mind, the village prankster. That, by definition, makes him more joker than rogue. Some readers probably want him to be the rogue/crafty fighter ... but I don't feel that's how RJ originally wrote him. Re-read 100 pages into EotW and it's apparent. Whatever he becomes, he is, first and foremost, RJ's comedy relief. That's what makes the "middle" part of EotW so depressing (like good middles should be ... when all hope seems lost) is that the one guy who always found a way to have fun and not lose his youthful exuberance loses both because of the dagger.

 

You could easily make the argument that the joker did turn into a rogue ... but to say that the change totally wiped out who he was in the beginning is to forget who RJ first created him to be. We all change, and yet we all stay the same. I'm sure the same could be said for Mat. If anything, I think BS forgot that Mat was the joker AND the rogue.

 

You're right. The first time you meet him he and some other dude had caught a badger to use in a prank on someone. And, if you read carefully, you'll notice that Perrin and Rand think of each other as being good with women for some time before Mat even comes into the woman picture.

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