Spoilers! Chapter One - Eastwards the Winds Blew is up on Tor

[fionwe1987]

No, she caved on that one; her new AS still had to be tested and sworn in on the OR.

True, but neither of these are major issues for Rand. I doubt the test will be an issue for Rand (if the Hall even really seeks to enforce it. RJ said he wouldn't be showing us any more WT testings after Moiraine's. Nynaeve's may well be a Sanderson-ism). As for the Oaths, Rand is the one who knows what the Oath Rod was used for. Hr can reveal that, and now that the Oaths have served their chief practical purpose anyway (the removal of the BA), the Aes Sedai may well cave on them.

 

Again, not saying any of this will happen. Just that it can.

[MasterAblar]

You really think Avi's vision will come to pass?

 

Why should that affect the Black and White Towers? What needs to change in the vision is the Aiel. Why would whatever happens to them change the future of the Black and White Towers?

Well for one in Avi's vision the WT did fall to the Seanchan. I don't know if this is directly related to the Aiel or not, but it was said by someone in her vision that when the WT fell to the Seanchan the Aiel lost their only allies.

 

Fred

 

The WT fell to the Seanchan a long time after the war started, which was itself a fair amount of time after the Last Battle. That won't even be an issue if the Aiel's problems are resolved, which was the cause of the Seanchan expansion.

 

Why should that affect the Black and White Towers? What needs to change in the vision is the Aiel. Why would whatever happens to them change the future of the Black and White Towers?

How would it not affect them? If there's to be lasting peace with the Seanchan, that affects them. If there's to be all out war, that affects them. The White Tower is ruled by a woman who cares deeply for the Aiel and identifies with them very strongly. You think her actions won't be affected by news of what Aviendha saw?

 

But the Aiel are what caused the war. Not the White Tower, not the Black Tower. Whether they are united or seperate isn't going to change the vision, it's what the Aiel do that matters. The BT was barely even mentioned in her vision, only in passing, and I doubt Aviendha cares what happens to it, so even if she tells Egwene about the vision, that's not likely to be something that comes up.

[Suttree]

You really think Avi's vision will come to pass?

 

Why should that affect the Black and White Towers? What needs to change in the vision is the Aiel. Why would whatever happens to them change the future of the Black and White Towers?

 

Oh come on MA, you're telling me that type of war with the Seanchan encompassing the entire land wouldn't change things? I know you have strong thoughts on this topic but let's be realistic. If one thing changes any number of them can.

 

Eithe way this is the part of the conversation I'm least interested in. Would really like to hear your thoughts on Hopefire's suggestion that AS could join the Ashaman as I know you've put a great deal of thought into the topic.

[Hopefire]

Hopefire: The problem with that scenario is that there is nothing inherently anti-male in the White Tower, except the Red Ajah which was just recently cut down in importance. The Aes Sedai were all women because of the taint, which they all now believe to have been cleansed away. Right there, the only obstacle to men joining the Tower is gone. People focus on the anti-male stance of the Tower, but forget that the Greens and the Blues are anything but anti-men. The Browns will slaver at the chance for the new kinds of research possible with men, too. The Tower has plenty of people who'll be glad to have men back as Aes Sedai. They may not be a majority, yet, but Egwene conveniently inducted new Novices who've married and had children, and thus don't have anywhere close to the same level of distrust of men.

 

There's nothing inherently anti-female with the Catholic Church, but they still don't allow female Priests, even when many other Christian sects do. Sexism, tradition, and institutional inertia exist, both in the real world and in the WOT. The Tower doesn't even need to be sexist per say to deny men a place - again, the Catholic Church venerates the Virgin Mary, welcomes nuns into the fold, but will not invest female Priests. Jehovah's Witnesses will not allow women to perform some religious ceremonies (baptisms, weddings, etc) or serve the church at the rank of Deacon or Elder. Within Anglicanism, the ordination of women remains a contentious issue; for example, the Anglican church in Wales recently voted down a proposal to allow women to serve as Bishops. I think that it's very premature to say that the only obstacle to men joining the Tower is gone. And the White Tower has some very good reasons to keep men out of the Tower: the White Tower has historically provided a voice to women and women's rights within the world of the Wheel of Time, and that's a voice that would have its message changed or altered by the simple fact of men being an equal part of it.

 

 

 

On the other hand, I thought like it seems most do, that the AS and Ashaman would somehow merge - the Greater Avalon thing seems to give at least some reason to believe that.

 

I'm still not seeing anything on Great Arvalon beyond the children's rhyme in LOC. And that name basically can mean anything. It could be the equivalent of "Great Britain" with Tar Valon claiming nearby land and expanding its borders from being a city-state to being a full fledged nation. It could be a new city founded after Tar Valon is destroyed by erupting Dragonmount. It could be that the city continues as it has, but acquires the epithet "Great" for being the last surviving city in the world with Ogier architecture while being rich from the banking services it provides. I think that things are being read into that name that are not actually indicated by that name.

 

 

 

 

First off the women with Rand will go back to the WT post TG, there is nothing to indicate they are thinking of spinning off and going independent. Also what alternate schools are you referring to? The other cultures? They are all tied together with the exchange program at this point. That move will foster more unity and understanding amongst the channeling women than anything that has come before.

 

I don't think that Egwene's program will work quite the way Egwene thinks it will. For one thing, the Aiel don't really have much to learn from the White Tower about channeling, but they do have a lot to learn about the politics and protocols of the wetlands. Egwene's as likely as not to have two very strong willed women who can't channel at all show up on her doorstep as she is to have the most powerful apprentices in training. The Aiel don't consider strength in the One Power to be worth much compared to strength of character. The way Jordan or Sanderson wrote the scene with the bargain was very clear that Egwene wasn't thinking things all the way through and wasn't fully considering the situation of the Aiel - take for example her offhand remark to Bair about how change can be directed just like how they direct the One Power. Good analogy! Except Bair can't channel at all. I think that the remark would have been directed at a different women if Jordan/Sanderson hadn't wanted to point out that Egwene was completely missing that elephant in the room (although it'd be absolutely hilarious if Sanderson wrote something subtle like that by accident).

 

I highly doubt that the other cultures are going to give up their independence. I think of it more as an exchange student program. Going to study for two years in a foreign country rarely lessens ones own loyalties to her or his home country and culture. And as for the women following Rand, they already are independent, whether they realize it or not. They've made a deliberate choice to put other matters ahead of the White Tower, not to get involved in current Tower politics. I doubt that Cadsuane will return to the Tower; working with men who can channel would be much more interesting to her than planting roses, and there are a number of sisters who now essentially follow her. Even after Rand announced the end of the Tower conflict to the sisters in Tear we don't seem to have seen any kind of passage of sisters from Rand's camp to Egwene's beyond Nynaeve, and it surely would have been remarked on.

 

 

Again it is a pretty cool concept to conetemplate but I just can't wrap my head around the WT not integrating fully with how much RJ built up the whole unity and greatest works done together angle. There is no way the WT could stay relevant without men in the picture. We also have Eggy's vision in Tar of the window pain at the WT changing to have the men back involved. That along with Great Arvalon are both decent hints.

 

The WT can definitely stay relevant without men. In fact, with men now channeling, it's more important than ever that the White Tower remain a voice of women in the world. That purpose would be at best diluted by having men involved in the hierarchy. I've said a few times why I think that "Great Arvalon" is basically meaningless, though I do grant that the window pane in the White Tower is a potential hint in the direction of integration.

 

 

 

You really think Avi's vision will come to pass?

In full? Of course note. Lesser details? Very potentially possible.

[MasterAblar]

Oh come on MA, you're telling me that type of war with the Seanchan encompassing the entire land wouldn't change things?

 

Of course it would, although apparently they remained seperate in the vision, though no doubt they worked together (and if they didn't, that's a big reason why the Seanchan won).

But the whole point is for the Aiel to find a new purpose so they don't start a huge war isn't it? I don't see how the Asha'man and Aes Sedai enter into the equation, as far as the Aiel finding a new purpose is concerned.

 

I know you have strong thoughts on this topic but let's be realistic. If one thing changes any number of them can.

 

Certainly, but there has to be some sort of a relation between them right? The vision, and the warning it gives is clearly about the Aiel, and how important it is that they adapt. I don't see the link between that and the state of the BT and WT. Should the Aiel fail to adapt and war break out, then I agree there could be change between the Black and White Towers. But I just don't see the link between the Aiel finding a new purpose and the Black and White Towers uniting.

 

Eithe way this is the part of the conversation I'm least interested in. Would really like to hear your thoughts on Hopefire's suggestion that AS could join the Ashaman as I know you've put a great deal of thought into the topic.

 

It's an interesting idea. On one hand it's true that, even though the BT was meant as a safe haven for male channellers, the Asha'man would probably be more open to adding female channellers than the WT with male channellers, simply because, while the WT has a problem with all male channellers, the Asha'man only dislike Aes Sedai. I don't remember them having any problem with the Wise Ones for example. On the other hand, I imagine Egwene would not appreciate the BT "stealing" female channellers. If the ultimate goal is unification between the Black and White Towers, this would seem to be a step backward. I can't think Logain (or whoever leads the BT), would want to antagonize the WT. Furthermore you would need someone to train potential new female Asha'man. Who would be willing to do that? There are Aes Sedai associated with Asha'man already, some bonded, willingly or not. But there's no way Logain would force the bonded ones into it, and if those who could choose it of their own free will decide to join the BT, they'd have Egwene to answer to. It means a huge mess that can quickly get out of control, with the BT at the center of it, something I doubt Logain wants. The last thing the BT needs is attention. Of the negative sort that is.

 

And while we're at it with crazy ideas, there's a far simpler and less problematic solution: the Kin. They can already channel, they're not officially part of the WT, they're already in Andor, and the BT does not have the same restrictions as the WT strength wise, which is undoubtebly an issue for a lot of the Kin. Alise might see the BT as a better option. Then again they're also affiliated with Elayne and Andor. But if I remember correctly Alise was rather worried about that because she doesn't want the wrath of the WT brought down on the Kin. Andor can't really stand up to the WT. Elayne won't be able to protect the Kin. But if the Kin decide to join the BT, well then suddenly they're part of a group which the Aes Sedai will be far more hesitant oppose. And they can keep helping out Andor too if they wish, although I'm not too crazy about that since I don't like the idea of a single nation having such an advantage over others. But then, with time, they could extend that help to other nations as well.

[b3arz3rg3r]

It would be an absolutely genius move if Egwene managed to get the White Tower to acknowledge Rand as Aes Sedai.

 

It would start healing SO MANY problems in regards to equality, unity, persecution etc...

 

Having the White Tower accept a male channeller into its ranks would do a whole world of good when the masses see it happen. They don't trust Asha'man, but the Tower (however weary people are of them) is respected and heeded. (in those places where they are hated/distrusted, they were always going to hate Asha'man anyway).

 

The only problem is that I cannot see a reasonable scenario with Egwene managing to do this. I mean, she could just proclaim it and to hell with the Hall, but it wouldn't be very effective. I suppose ta'veren and the will of the Pattern could help it along, with AS randomly agreeing to it, but that would be kinda cheap.

 

I am not sure how the Tower can be convinced to agree to such a thing at this point in time, perhaps after the LB and the deeds of Asha'man are known and respected (and perhaps the threat of the DO is not looming) but not now, not with Rand.

 

I would love to see it, it would be extraordinary, but I can't see it happening without some kind of "trick".

Well, the 'tricks' are in place. One, the Amyrlin can declare anything. She made Nynaeve, Elaine, etc. Aes Sedai in this way. For another, Egwene just got full control of dealing with the rulers of the world. What if she argues naming Rand Aes Sedai is a political move, akin to the Ring being given to the Queens of Andor, whether they can channel or not?

 

Again, not saying it will happen. But there's plenty of ways for it to.

 

Hopefire: The problem with that scenario is that there is nothing inherently anti-male in the White Tower, except the Red Ajah which was just recently cut down in importance. The Aes Sedai were all women because of the taint, which they all now believe to have been cleansed away. Right there, the only obstacle to men joining the Tower is gone. People focus on the anti-male stance of the Tower, but forget that the Greens and the Blues are anything but anti-men. The Browns will slaver at the chance for the new kinds of research possible with men, too. The Tower has plenty of people who'll be glad to have men back as Aes Sedai. They may not be a majority, yet, but Egwene conveniently inducted new Novices who've married and had children, and thus don't have anywhere close to the same level of distrust of men.

 

The Amyrlin can't just declare anything as if she had any divine right. She can't just proclaim someone who is not even an initiate of the tower as Aes Sedai and think it'll be accepted. Saying Rand is an Aes Sedai wouldn't stick. The Hall would just ask her whether she has lost her marbles and negate it. The Hall can overturn something like that, they just don't do that because they like to pretend Aes Sedai are united.

 

Aes Sedai other than most reds may not reject all men, but that's far from the same as accepting men as their equals. How long did it take in the real world for men to accept women as equals? And there are still many who don't.

 

This is about power and politics. Aes Sedai and Asha'man merging into a single organisation is something that should take some time. Sure, BS might just gloss over it and say that men and women unite in the epilogue just for the fun of it, but that'd be nothing but bad writing.

So far I haven't seen any compelling reasons why women and men would want to unite immediately. Stuff like because some prophetic dream says it might happen or because Aes Sedai are supposed to be men and women again when the AOL comes next are just a load of bullshit. Just explain why the women should want to join with the men. It's not as if the Aes Sedai would need the men. They have survived 3,000 years without them quite well. Or why the men should want to join with the women. Afterall why would they want to join with the women when it would require them to swear the three oaths, give up a good portion of their life expectancy and accept Tower Law when frankly they don't need the women either.

 

It's an interesting idea. On one hand it's true that, even though the BT was meant as a safe haven for male channellers, the Asha'man would probably be more open to adding female channellers than the WT with male channellers, simply because, while the WT has a problem with all male channellers, the Asha'man only dislike Aes Sedai. I don't remember them having any problem with the Wise Ones for example. On the other hand, I imagine Egwene would not appreciate the BT "stealing" female channellers. If the ultimate goal is unification between the Black and White Towers, this would seem to be a step backward. I can't think Logain (or whoever leads the BT), would want to antagonize the WT. Furthermore you would need someone to train potential new female Asha'man. Who would be willing to do that? There are Aes Sedai associated with Asha'man already, some bonded, willingly or not. But there's no way Logain would force the bonded ones into it, and if those who could choose it of their own free will decide to join the BT, they'd have Egwene to answer to. It means a huge mess that can quickly get out of control, with the BT at the center of it, something I doubt Logain wants. The last thing the BT needs is attention. Of the negative sort that is.

 

And while we're at it with crazy ideas, there's a far simpler and less problematic solution: the Kin. They can already channel, they're not officially part of the WT, they're already in Andor, and the BT does not have the same restrictions as the WT strength wise, which is undoubtebly an issue for a lot of the Kin. Alise might see the BT as a better option. Then again they're also affiliated with Elayne and Andor. But if I remember correctly Alise was rather worried about that because she doesn't want the wrath of the WT down on the Kin. Andor can't really stand up to the WT. Elayne won't be able to protect the Kin. But if the Kin decide to join the BT, well then suddenly they're part of a group which the Aes Sedai will be far more hesitant oppose. And they can keep helping out Andor too if they wish, although I'm not to crazy about that since I don't like the idea of a single nation having such an advantage over others. But then, with time, they could extend that help to other nations as well.

 

Female channellers joining the BT? I don't see it happening anytime soon. Well, one day there certainly could be some Aes Sedai who abandons the WT for some reason and enlists with the men just like there could be men abandoning the BT wanting to join with the WT. For the last 3,000 years there were no alternatives for either men or women, but now things are different. In the future an Aes Sedai who gets fed up with the Tower because of some reason can give up her title and if she sees as the men as a valid alternative she might join their organisation, but I don't think that'll ever be more than an exception to the rule.

 

As for the Kin, no way. The Kin are even stronger bound by traditions than the Aes Sedai because of their gerontocracy. They are even less likely to join with the men than the Aes Sedai are.

[MasterAblar]

Female channellers joining the BT? I don't see it happening anytime soon.

 

I assure you, nor do I.

 

As for the Kin, no way. The Kin are even stronger bound by traditions than the Aes Sedai because of their gerontocracy. They are even less likely to join with the men than the Aes Sedai are.

 

Oh, I very much doubt it'll happen, but if any female channellers do join the BT in the near future, I think it's most likely to be them, even if just a fraction of their numbers. An Aes Sedai would have to answer to the Amyrlin and the Hall. A Kinswoman is relatively free to make her own choice. It would still require a break in tradition of course.

[thisguy]

If there's an actual breaking, as Rand seems to think will happen, there may very well be multiple groups of channelers - men alone, women alone, and the mix of the two sexes. It already looks like it's being set up that way.

[hawkeye31]

 

It would be an absolutely genius move if Egwene managed to get the White Tower to acknowledge Rand as Aes Sedai.

 

It would start healing SO MANY problems in regards to equality, unity, persecution etc...

 

Having the White Tower accept a male channeller into its ranks would do a whole world of good when the masses see it happen. They don't trust Asha'man, but the Tower (however weary people are of them) is respected and heeded. (in those places where they are hated/distrusted, they were always going to hate Asha'man anyway).

 

The only problem is that I cannot see a reasonable scenario with Egwene managing to do this. I mean, she could just proclaim it and to hell with the Hall, but it wouldn't be very effective. I suppose ta'veren and the will of the Pattern could help it along, with AS randomly agreeing to it, but that would be kinda cheap.

 

I am not sure how the Tower can be convinced to agree to such a thing at this point in time, perhaps after the LB and the deeds of Asha'man are known and respected (and perhaps the threat of the DO is not looming) but not now, not with Rand.

 

I would love to see it, it would be extraordinary, but I can't see it happening without some kind of "trick".

Well, the 'tricks' are in place. One, the Amyrlin can declare anything. She made Nynaeve, Elaine, etc. Aes Sedai in this way. For another, Egwene just got full control of dealing with the rulers of the world. What if she argues naming Rand Aes Sedai is a political move, akin to the Ring being given to the Queens of Andor, whether they can channel or not?

 

Again, not saying it will happen. But there's plenty of ways for it to.

 

Hopefire: The problem with that scenario is that there is nothing inherently anti-male in the White Tower, except the Red Ajah which was just recently cut down in importance. The Aes Sedai were all women because of the taint, which they all now believe to have been cleansed away. Right there, the only obstacle to men joining the Tower is gone. People focus on the anti-male stance of the Tower, but forget that the Greens and the Blues are anything but anti-men. The Browns will slaver at the chance for the new kinds of research possible with men, too. The Tower has plenty of people who'll be glad to have men back as Aes Sedai. They may not be a majority, yet, but Egwene conveniently inducted new Novices who've married and had children, and thus don't have anywhere close to the same level of distrust of men.

 

The Amyrlin can't just declare anything as if she had any divine right. She can't just proclaim someone who is not even an initiate of the tower as Aes Sedai and think it'll be accepted. Saying Rand is an Aes Sedai wouldn't stick. The Hall would just ask her whether she has lost her marbles and negate it. The Hall can overturn something like that, they just don't do that because they like to pretend Aes Sedai are united.

 

Maybe she will bestow it upon Rand posthumously?

[Maleshub]

The WT was established as an all-female club (out of necessity). The WT's basis is rejection of all and any male channelers. The Amyrlin Seat's raising ceremony is evidence that gender is a criteria for being in the ceremony. So, Egwene cannot simply claim leadership over any male channeler. That relationship is still "under construction." In brief, Egwene's WT laws at the moment prevent her from being a leader over a male channeler.

This entire thing is dependent on saidin being tainted, which is no longer true.

 

Egwene has had ample evidence for sometime proving Saidin cleansed. Yet we don't see any indication that she's moving towards changing the WT (a biased name since the ancient AS symbol was B&W) into an inclusive institution. My opinion is that this will be part of Rand's price\demands before going to Shayol Ghul. It fits with his "unity" promise.

 

And so, the WT rules still ban any male channelers from enrolling. Until that is changed, Egwene cannot claim any authority over male channelers. Why should male channelers even think of submitting if the institution doesn't accept them?

[Elan Tedronai]

My my a whole lot of writing and not much written in it.

 

male and female channellers have already begun the process of reintegration together and reversing the effects of 3000 years of the saidin taint. men and women becoming bonded started all the way back in book 7. We are in final book with the last few days of the black tower. Connect the dots people.

 

robert jordan played one of his famous forshadowing tricks in book 7 with elaida and her massive new palace. How ironic would it be that a symbol of her power and majesty in end became a house to a red's greatest antithesis.

 

The ashman will move into that tower which means an intact white tower which automatically nullfies avi's vision of seanchan taking over.

 

theo theo theo

 

havent you read TGS? havent you read egwene's words to silvana about the ashaman? does that sound to like an elaida mouth piece?

 

 

anyways we shall see in a few months time

[Maleshub]

My my a whole lot of writing and not much written in it.

 

male and female channellers have already begun the process of reintegration together and reversing the effects of 3000 years of the saidin taint. men and women becoming bonded started all the way back in book 7. We are in final book with the last few days of the black tower. Connect the dots people.

 

robert jordan played one of his famous forshadowing tricks in book 7 with elaida and her massive new palace. How ironic would it be that a symbol of her power and majesty in end became a house to a red's greatest antithesis.

 

The ashman will move into that tower which means an intact white tower which automatically nullfies avi's vision of seanchan taking over.

 

theo theo theo

 

havent you read TGS? havent you read egwene's words to silvana about the ashaman? does that sound to like an elaida mouth piece?

 

 

anyways we shall see in a few months time

 

What you say is correct. It isn't the point of my post. I understand that male and female channelers have started to heal the 3K year enmity and one-sided war of extermination. But the WT as an institution cannot claim authority over male channelers yet; because it doesn't yet recognize them in its laws and practices, regardless of Egwene's intentions.

[b3arz3rg3r]

My my a whole lot of writing and not much written in it.

 

male and female channellers have already begun the process of reintegration together and reversing the effects of 3000 years of the saidin taint. men and women becoming bonded started all the way back in book 7. We are in final book with the last few days of the black tower. Connect the dots people.

 

robert jordan played one of his famous forshadowing tricks in book 7 with elaida and her massive new palace. How ironic would it be that a symbol of her power and majesty in end became a house to a red's greatest antithesis.

 

The ashman will move into that tower which means an intact white tower which automatically nullfies avi's vision of seanchan taking over.

 

theo theo theo

 

havent you read TGS? havent you read egwene's words to silvana about the ashaman? does that sound to like an elaida mouth piece?

 

 

anyways we shall see in a few months time

 

Eventually yes. The question is when. Whether men and women unite in ten, a hundred or a thousand years is the question.

[TootThatHorn]

"Was" dependent...I may be a little surprised if we see what happens with the BT post TG, but I really don't see them bowing down and being incorporated in to the WT once it's all said and done. If anything it will be a mutual rule of channelers, with an intertwining of bonding and an equal say in matters.

Well of course it won't be a bowing down to the WT. The Asha'man aren't going to join the WT leaving it intact and as it is. Its going to involve a huge shift in attitudes, be the kind of change that comes once an Age. The White Tower won't be the White Tower as we know it when the Asha'man join.

 

Not a direct response to you Fionwe but to all that suggest an integration; I see it, like I said, as a side by side ruling, well ruling isn't even right to me because I'll bet down the line they will disagree a lot but there will be a mutual understanding, and integration. To see that I would think would be a forward movement of the wheel. A full integration sounds more like LTT's age, and that shouldn't happen for a long time.

[FanoLan]

My my a whole lot of writing and not much written in it.

 

male and female channellers have already begun the process of reintegration together and reversing the effects of 3000 years of the saidin taint. men and women becoming bonded started all the way back in book 7. We are in final book with the last few days of the black tower. Connect the dots people.

 

robert jordan played one of his famous forshadowing tricks in book 7 with elaida and her massive new palace. How ironic would it be that a symbol of her power and majesty in end became a house to a red's greatest antithesis.

 

The ashman will move into that tower which means an intact white tower which automatically nullfies avi's vision of seanchan taking over.

 

theo theo theo

 

havent you read TGS? havent you read egwene's words to silvana about the ashaman? does that sound to like an elaida mouth piece?

 

 

anyways we shall see in a few months time

"Was" dependent...I may be a little surprised if we see what happens with the BT post TG, but I really don't see them bowing down and being incorporated in to the WT once it's all said and done. If anything it will be a mutual rule of channelers, with an intertwining of bonding and an equal say in matters.

Well of course it won't be a bowing down to the WT. The Asha'man aren't going to join the WT leaving it intact and as it is. Its going to involve a huge shift in attitudes, be the kind of change that comes once an Age. The White Tower won't be the White Tower as we know it when the Asha'man join.

 

Not a direct response to you Fionwe but to all that suggest an integration; I see it, like I said, as a side by side ruling, well ruling isn't even right to me because I'll bet down the line they will disagree a lot but there will be a mutual understanding, and integration. To see that I would think would be a forward movement of the wheel. A full integration sounds more like LTT's age, and that shouldn't happen for a long time.

 

A Black Tower raised upon the foundation of Elaida's abandoned monument to her own ego. Balancing the White Tower, esoterically parallel to the ancient AS symbol. Sounds likely.

 

Considereing the differences between saidin/saidar, initiates to the WT and those to the re-located BT would necessarily require separate training regimens. Hard to imagine novices bunking down one floor away from BT soldiers even if lessons were segregated. Co-ed boarding school for channelers? Definitely not in the immediate plans.

 

So, side by side facilities, each with it's own administrative bureacracy. Likely a coordinated ruling board of some sort to integrate actions and develop inter-Tower rules: formalized procedures for bonding, a shared curriculum once initiates are able to form circles, conflict resolution protocol, etc. On the plus side, visitation schedules for the kids of dissolved relationships should be fairly easy to coordinate. Then again, keeping the novices and soldiers from canoodling will likely require a bit more dedication from the Mistress of Novices and her BT counterpart. Maybe that had something to do with development of the original dreamspike.

[cookiecrisp]

Technically, she CAN do so, but I doubt she would remain Amyrlin for long (realistically) if she randomly accepts MEN into the White Tower as Aes Sedai without consulting the Hall.

 

I like the idea about the whole Andor - ceremonial position precedent. That could work out well, although I think that it would be tough.

 

It isn't so much that it can't be done, more that I feel it would need to be done well to make it realistic. I hope it is something like Egwene's War Declaration stunt, not just a random blitz like the "not secret meetings".

 

I doubt anyone faction in the White Tower realistically has enough influence to defeat Egwene on a matter like that. Even if Romanda and everyone who hates her guts were able to band together, they still wouldn't come close to the influence of Egwene's pocket faction + any Asha'man she brought in. Removing Egwene might not even be a desirable idea. There would be a higher chance of Logain becoming Amyrlin than someone like Romanda, especially if she just got rid of the popular Amyrlin.

 

To be honest- if Egwene was able to outmanuever the entire Hall on the "no secret meetings" thing, I doubt they can do so much as touch her. Egwene has too many allies and is just leagues smarter than the bunch of bricks her opponents are. They never stood a chance against her in this arena, as they have shown by failing again and again.

[FarShainMael]

I'm wondering about Rand's dream of Mierin, back in ToM.

 

He recognises her; but doesn't think 'hang on, Lanfear died'. Nor is there anything about it in his PoV here. He just thinks that he must not let 'that woman' distract him, and that 'that was probably the point of what he had seen'.

 

Maybe he just doesn't want a forlorn hope of Moiraine still being alive. (Except, of course, it's not at all forlorn!)

[BFG]

^He knows that the DO can bring back the Forsaken. he probably thinks that she's dead (which she was, but not for the reason he thinks) and the DO brought her back. In TAR she can appear in any form that she wishes. Their isn't really any point in him thinking of Moiraine at this stage.

[FarShainMael]

Good point.