Most headdesk-worthy WOT couple

[Apple Scruff]

Ooh! I just had a great idea! When Gawyn dies, Egwene can end up with Logain! They can fall in love and be co-Amyrilns bonded to each other. Logain>Gawyn! :)

[Lisa Campbell]

I disagree on the Rand/Elayne front. Even though they haven't spent much time together since Tear, everything she has done (including claiming Andor's throne) has ultimately been for Rand.

 

Falme and helping to free Egwene (who Rand needs);

 

Hunting the BA and ending up in Tear making out with Rand;

 

Tanchico and finding the danger to Rand;

 

Ebou Dar and finding the Bowl of the Winds to fix the weather;

 

Exploding the Gateway and messing up the Damane fighting Rand in Illian (albeit by accident);

 

Succeeding to the throne so as to lead Andor into the fight against the Shadow;

 

Sending the Borderlanders off on a wild goose chase delaying the inevitable confrontation with Rand until after VoG (another accident I admit);

 

Helping Mat defeat the Gholaam...

 

I could go on but her main motivation for all was a desire to help Rand, not herself. I'd call that selfless love, no matter how short their time was together in Tear, she had a major crush on him from the first time she met him when he fell over the palace wall in Caemlyn.

[Vardar]

I disagree on the Rand/Elayne front. Even though they haven't spent much time together since Tear, everything she has done (including claiming Andor's throne) has ultimately been for Rand.

 

Falme and helping to free Egwene (who Rand needs);

 

Hunting the BA and ending up in Tear making out with Rand;

 

Tanchico and finding the danger to Rand;

 

Ebou Dar and finding the Bowl of the Winds to fix the weather;

 

Exploding the Gateway and messing up the Damane fighting Rand in Illian (albeit by accident);

 

Succeeding to the throne so as to lead Andor into the fight against the Shadow;

 

Sending the Borderlanders off on a wild goose chase delaying the inevitable confrontation with Rand until after VoG (another accident I admit);

 

Helping Mat defeat the Gholaam...

 

I could go on but her main motivation for all was a desire to help Rand, not herself. I'd call that selfless love, no matter how short their time was together in Tear, she had a major crush on him from the first time she met him when he fell over the palace wall in Caemlyn.

 

They're not debating that her actions spoke of her love for him, they're debating that she fell in love with him too quick.

 

I know people who've met, gotten engaged and married all in a 6 month period. I personally think that's NUTS! Others think it's romantic.

[Lisa Campbell]

What I meant was that she was infatuated with Rand well before Tear, that Tear was what was cemented infatuation into love. Could have been clearer I guess. Rand also thinks of her a lot when absent in the Waste with Aviendha under his nose.

 

No matter how rational you are you can't control how quickly you fall in love. It doesn't even have to be the "one", just someone who elicits strong emotions. As to your second point, well, been there and done that (although it took quite a bit longer) and from a love point of view it wasn't nuts. Cultural misconceptions regarding respect and my naiivity was what was nuts.

[Clouded]

I disagree on the Rand/Elayne front. Even though they haven't spent much time together since Tear, everything she has done (including claiming Andor's throne) has ultimately been for Rand.

 

Falme and helping to free Egwene (who Rand needs);

 

Hunting the BA and ending up in Tear making out with Rand;

 

Tanchico and finding the danger to Rand;

 

Ebou Dar and finding the Bowl of the Winds to fix the weather;

 

Exploding the Gateway and messing up the Damane fighting Rand in Illian (albeit by accident);

 

Succeeding to the throne so as to lead Andor into the fight against the Shadow;

 

Sending the Borderlanders off on a wild goose chase delaying the inevitable confrontation with Rand until after VoG (another accident I admit);

 

Helping Mat defeat the Gholaam...

 

I could go on but her main motivation for all was a desire to help Rand, not herself. I'd call that selfless love, no matter how short their time was together in Tear, she had a major crush on him from the first time she met him when he fell over the palace wall in Caemlyn.

What I meant was that she was infatuated with Rand well before Tear, that Tear was what was cemented infatuation into love. Could have been clearer I guess. Rand also thinks of her a lot when absent in the Waste with Aviendha under his nose.

 

No matter how rational you are you can't control how quickly you fall in love. It doesn't even have to be the "one", just someone who elicits strong emotions. As to your second point, well, been there and done that (although it took quite a bit longer) and from a love point of view it wasn't nuts. Cultural misconceptions regarding respect and my naiivity was what was nuts.

 

Oh, I agree that Rand and Elayne love each other. I have no doubts in that respect. I was just more annoyed by the lack of scenes on the development of their relationship. Like I said, we get to see Rand and Aviendha, Rand and Min, and Mat and Tuon all develop there feelings towards each other. Rand and Elayne just comes out of left field.

 

I want to explicitly say that I don't dislike their relationship. I see their situation as completely possible in a world where the pattern forces many people to marry who did not consider it. All I was trying to say in my earlier post was that I can understand a person's disconnect or annoyance with it.

 

Also, while most of that list does help Rand, I can't see it as argument for loving Rand. For most of that list, Nyneave was participating as well, and I wouldn't say her motive was because she loved Rand.

[David Selig]

I could go on but her main motivation for all was a desire to help Rand, not herself. I'd call that selfless love, no matter how short their time was together in Tear, she had a major crush on him from the first time she met him when he fell over the palace wall in Caemlyn.

Not really. The only items on this list where Elayne's main motivation was to help Rand are going to Falme and Tanchico. Sure, in the other cases she ended up helping him in some way, but this was either by accident or wasn't the main motivation.

 

I am not saying she doesn't love him, but this love was rarely a main motivating factor for her actions and decisions.

[Vardar]

What I meant was that she was infatuated with Rand well before Tear, that Tear was what was cemented infatuation into love. Could have been clearer I guess. Rand also thinks of her a lot when absent in the Waste with Aviendha under his nose.

 

No matter how rational you are you can't control how quickly you fall in love. It doesn't even have to be the "one", just someone who elicits strong emotions. As to your second point, well, been there and done that (although it took quite a bit longer) and from a love point of view it wasn't nuts. Cultural misconceptions regarding respect and my naiivity was what was nuts.

 

I agree, you can't control love. But you generally don't meet someone for an hour, and decide you love them. (Which is what Elayne did basically)

[Lisa Campbell]

I read it more that she was interested in him and then by meeting Egwene, Nynaeve and Min in the Tower that she fell in love between then and Tear Vards, Hey everyone interprets things differently and I don't hold a grudge against anyone who has a different one Vards.

 

David, I still disagree, I mentioned two points that happened by accident but for the rest she was trying to help him save the world.

 

Clouded, I think they did develop, only separately. Another thought of mine is that it is more a relationship of state, even though love grew out of it, much like Mat and Tuon (even though Tuon hasn't admitted it yet). That is totally believable given the WOT world climate and the fact they are both powerful people.

 

But like I said, my interpretation, and I didn't want to vote for the standing list because all are believable to me. I don't headbutt my desk about anything in these books. Sometimes I facepalm myself for missing stuff though

[driedraspberry]

There were some relationships where I think RJ did it correctly. One I especially like is the development of Rand and Avhienda . We see Rand slowly become more infatuated with Avhienda, but not understanding his feelings. He likes her because she sees him for who he is, not what he is. He accidentally gives her regard gifts, and she reevaluates her anger against him. Additionally, she has to weigh her honor versus her attraction to Rand al'Thor. I rather like how it plays out.

 

Another good one, is the Tuon and Mat's relationship. We see Mat resign himself to fate. He accepts that he has to marry, and decides to play nice with his future wife. Slowly, over time, he falls for her. We see it all happen.

 

On the other hand, Rand and Elayne is where RJ really dropped the ball. He hints at their relationship, but doesn't show it very well. I chalk this up to him cramming a lot of events into the Stone of Tear plot. Maybe, he just couldn't flesh it out.

 

While I agree that initially Rand and Avi had all the workings for infatuation, I never actually saw a healthy romance grow from that. Avi was never honest with him, and they were never really on the same wavelength. Perhaps in the future, I guess.

 

Personally, I prefer Rand with Min, and Avi with Elayne. :)

[Woolheaded]

While I agree that initially Rand and Avi had all the workings for infatuation, I never actually saw a healthy romance grow from that. Avi was never honest with him, and they were never really on the same wavelength. Perhaps in the future, I guess.

 

Personally, I prefer Rand with Min, and Avi with Elayne. :)

I loved the whole Rand/Avi thang up until he sent her away. RJ got them in the perfect spot for a great emotional scene where they got their stuff figured out, and then just seemed to say, "Oh, Min's gonna be here soon, better have Rand send Avi away." It makes some sense in the series, but the Avi/Rand thing kind of falls away for me when they don't see each other again for so long.

 

Min I felt was a tad rushed in the beginning (she met him in Baerlon and is instantly in love forever? eh...) but they develop a fairly strong and healthy relationship. But as Rand grows harder and more distant, it seems strange that Min stays so infatuated with him. Yes they are bonded and they've shared many an experience with each other, but Rand becomes so different from who he used to be. In the end it's good Min still stayed with him as otherwise I think Rand would have just cracked like an egg, but it still seemed strange.

 

There were some relationships where I think RJ did it correctly. One I especially like is the development of Rand and Avhienda . We see Rand slowly become more infatuated with Avhienda, but not understanding his feelings. He likes her because she sees him for who he is, not what he is. He accidentally gives her regard gifts, and she reevaluates her anger against him. Additionally, she has to weigh her honor versus her attraction to Rand al'Thor. I rather like how it plays out.

 

Another good one, is the Tuon and Mat's relationship. We see Mat resign himself to fate. He accepts that he has to marry, and decides to play nice with his future wife. Slowly, over time, he falls for her. We see it all happen.

 

On the other hand, Rand and Elayne is where RJ really dropped the ball. He hints at their relationship, but doesn't show it very well. I chalk this up to him cramming a lot of events into the Stone of Tear plot. Maybe, he just couldn't flesh it out.

Are you, like, me? Because this is... this is what I think just said better than I could say it.

[Maleshub]

There were some relationships where I think RJ did it correctly. One I especially like is the development of Rand and Avhienda . We see Rand slowly become more infatuated with Avhienda, but not understanding his feelings. He likes her because she sees him for who he is, not what he is. He accidentally gives her regard gifts, and she reevaluates her anger against him. Additionally, she has to weigh her honor versus her attraction to Rand al'Thor. I rather like how it plays out.

 

Another good one, is the Tuon and Mat's relationship. We see Mat resign himself to fate. He accepts that he has to marry, and decides to play nice with his future wife. Slowly, over time, he falls for her. We see it all happen.

 

On the other hand, Rand and Elayne is where RJ really dropped the ball. He hints at their relationship, but doesn't show it very well. I chalk this up to him cramming a lot of events into the Stone of Tear plot. Maybe, he just couldn't flesh it out.

 

+1 and totally agree with this. I also share the same feelings towards the relationships.

 

Ooh! I just had a great idea! When Gawyn dies, Egwene can end up with Logain! They can fall in love and be co-Amyrilns bonded to each other. Logain>Gawyn! :)

 

Amen! Egwene and Logain is definitely better than Egwene and Gawyn. But there is the matter of two Aes Sedai that Logain has bonded and bedded!

 

I could go on but her main motivation for all was a desire to help Rand, not herself. I'd call that selfless love, no matter how short their time was together in Tear, she had a major crush on him from the first time she met him when he fell over the palace wall in Caemlyn.

Not really. The only items on this list where Elayne's main motivation was to help Rand are going to Falme and Tanchico. Sure, in the other cases she ended up helping him in some way, but this was either by accident or wasn't the main motivation.

 

I am not saying she doesn't love him, but this love was rarely a main motivating factor for her actions and decisions.

 

Elayne is impulsive. She threw herself in Siuan's BA hunt. She dragged herself into Liandrin's trap and the Falme fiasco. And due to her sheltered upbringing and emotional void fell for the first handsome stranger she saw ... Rand in TEotW.

 

But many of her actions during and after the succession clearly didn't have Rand's interest as top priority. She distanced herself from him in the succession (for obvious reasons); but it grated her that Sashelle handed her Cairhien from Rand (although that was the case). And she was already thinking ahead to the day that Rand dies and his Empire has to be inherited. She is already maneuvering for a favorable posture in the post-Rand world.

[driedraspberry]

While I agree that initially Rand and Avi had all the workings for infatuation, I never actually saw a healthy romance grow from that. Avi was never honest with him, and they were never really on the same wavelength. Perhaps in the future, I guess.

 

Personally, I prefer Rand with Min, and Avi with Elayne. :)

I loved the whole Rand/Avi thang up until he sent her away. RJ got them in the perfect spot for a great emotional scene where they got their stuff figured out, and then just seemed to say, "Oh, Min's gonna be here soon, better have Rand send Avi away." It makes some sense in the series, but the Avi/Rand thing kind of falls away for me when they don't see each other again for so long.

 

Min I felt was a tad rushed in the beginning (she met him in Baerlon and is instantly in love forever? eh...) but they develop a fairly strong and healthy relationship. But as Rand grows harder and more distant, it seems strange that Min stays so infatuated with him. Yes they are bonded and they've shared many an experience with each other, but Rand becomes so different from who he used to be. In the end it's good Min still stayed with him as otherwise I think Rand would have just cracked like an egg, but it still seemed strange.

 

There were some relationships where I think RJ did it correctly. One I especially like is the development of Rand and Avhienda . We see Rand slowly become more infatuated with Avhienda, but not understanding his feelings. He likes her because she sees him for who he is, not what he is. He accidentally gives her regard gifts, and she reevaluates her anger against him. Additionally, she has to weigh her honor versus her attraction to Rand al'Thor. I rather like how it plays out.

 

Another good one, is the Tuon and Mat's relationship. We see Mat resign himself to fate. He accepts that he has to marry, and decides to play nice with his future wife. Slowly, over time, he falls for her. We see it all happen.

 

On the other hand, Rand and Elayne is where RJ really dropped the ball. He hints at their relationship, but doesn't show it very well. I chalk this up to him cramming a lot of events into the Stone of Tear plot. Maybe, he just couldn't flesh it out.

Are you, like, me? Because this is... this is what I think just said better than I could say it.

While I agree that initially Rand and Avi had all the workings for infatuation, I never actually saw a healthy romance grow from that. Avi was never honest with him, and they were never really on the same wavelength. Perhaps in the future, I guess.

 

Personally, I prefer Rand with Min, and Avi with Elayne. :)

I loved the whole Rand/Avi thang up until he sent her away. RJ got them in the perfect spot for a great emotional scene where they got their stuff figured out, and then just seemed to say, "Oh, Min's gonna be here soon, better have Rand send Avi away." It makes some sense in the series, but the Avi/Rand thing kind of falls away for me when they don't see each other again for so long.

 

Min I felt was a tad rushed in the beginning (she met him in Baerlon and is instantly in love forever? eh...) but they develop a fairly strong and healthy relationship. But as Rand grows harder and more distant, it seems strange that Min stays so infatuated with him. Yes they are bonded and they've shared many an experience with each other, but Rand becomes so different from who he used to be. In the end it's good Min still stayed with him as otherwise I think Rand would have just cracked like an egg, but it still seemed strange.

 

Yeah, but even before she left Avi wasn't being honest with him. There was no open communication there.That's no foundation for a healthy relationship.

 

As for Min, she fell in love with him while he was still innocent, back when he wasn't really her type. Now he's matured beyond his years and much more worldly, which incidentally is to Min's taste. She got what she wanted.

[Maleshub]

Yeah, but even before she left Avi wasn't being honest with him. There was no open communication there.That's no foundation for a healthy relationship.

 

As for Min, she fell in love with him while he was still innocent, back when he wasn't really her type. Now he's matured beyond his years and much more worldly, which incidentally is to Min's taste. She got what she wanted.

 

I don't recall where and when Aviendha ever lied to Rand in a harmful way. Hiding something from his seems to be every women's favorite past time. In WH: A Lily in Winter, Min admits that she doesn't tell Rand things he doesn't need to know and that she lies to Rand when she thinks it is necessary; and Aviendha chuckles at that (in agreement):

 

"I don't tell him things he doesn't need to know," Min said, frowning at a lanky, wide-eyed serving woman whose curtsy nearly collapsed into a sprawl on the red-brown floor tiles. Eyeing Min sideways, Elayne remembered her own time wearing breeches, and wondered whether she might not try again. They were certainly freer than skirts. Not the heeled boots, though, she decided judiciously. They made Min almost as tall as Aviendha, but even Birgitte swayed in those, and with Min's snug breeches and a coat that barely covered her hips, it looked positively scandalous.

 

"You lie to him?" Suspicion larded Aviendha's tone. Even the way she adjusted her dark shawl on her shoulders carried disapproval, and she glared past Elayne at Min.

 

"Of course not," Min replied sharply, glaring right back. "Not unless it's necessary." Aviendha chuckled, then looked startled that she had, and put on a stony face.

 

Rand's communication problem with his women is what is most frustrating about his relationships. He doesn't spend anytime with his women to talk like Mat and Perrin. But the most he's talked to a woman before admitting his love to her was Aviendha. Elayne talked to him for 4 days in Tear and then the next time they met she had him unbuttoning her dress. And Min spent a few days with him in Caemlyn and Cairhien and was ripping his clothes off after seeing Colavaere dead.

 

One of the things in the Rand - Aviendha relationship is how traumatized Rand was when he saw her dead after Rahvin's lightning struck her in the Caemlyn raid. From then till "A Lily in Winter," Rand decided to keep her safe by cutting her off from himself.

[driedraspberry]

Yeah, but even before she left Avi wasn't being honest with him. There was no open communication there.That's no foundation for a healthy relationship.

 

As for Min, she fell in love with him while he was still innocent, back when he wasn't really her type. Now he's matured beyond his years and much more worldly, which incidentally is to Min's taste. She got what she wanted.

 

I don't recall where and when Aviendha ever lied to Rand in a harmful way. Hiding something from his seems to be every women's favorite past time. In WH: A Lily in Winter, Min admits that she doesn't tell Rand things he doesn't need to know and that she lies to Rand when she thinks it is necessary; and Aviendha chuckles at that (in agreement):

 

"I don't tell him things he doesn't need to know," Min said, frowning at a lanky, wide-eyed serving woman whose curtsy nearly collapsed into a sprawl on the red-brown floor tiles. Eyeing Min sideways, Elayne remembered her own time wearing breeches, and wondered whether she might not try again. They were certainly freer than skirts. Not the heeled boots, though, she decided judiciously. They made Min almost as tall as Aviendha, but even Birgitte swayed in those, and with Min's snug breeches and a coat that barely covered her hips, it looked positively scandalous.

 

"You lie to him?" Suspicion larded Aviendha's tone. Even the way she adjusted her dark shawl on her shoulders carried disapproval, and she glared past Elayne at Min.

 

"Of course not," Min replied sharply, glaring right back. "Not unless it's necessary." Aviendha chuckled, then looked startled that she had, and put on a stony face.

 

Rand's communication problem with his women is what is most frustrating about his relationships. He doesn't spend anytime with his women to talk like Mat and Perrin. But the most he's talked to a woman before admitting his love to her was Aviendha. Elayne talked to him for 4 days in Tear and then the next time they met she had him unbuttoning her dress. And Min spent a few days with him in Caemlyn and Cairhien and was ripping his clothes off after seeing Colavaere dead.

 

One of the things in the Rand - Aviendha relationship is how traumatized Rand was when he saw her dead after Rahvin's lightning struck her in the Caemlyn raid. From then till "A Lily in Winter," Rand decided to keep her safe by cutting her off from himself.

 

I don't mean that Rand/Avi don't talk in general, but there has been next to zero communication in regards to their relationship. They discussed Aiel culture, all sorts of things, but never their feelings. Practically the entire time they spent together, from the waste to Caemlyn, she left him utterly confused. He had no idea why she hated him, had sex with him, wouldn't pursue a romantic relationship with him, or what exactly constituted her feelings for him (fondness...or love?).

 

Rand knew where he stood with Min after they had sex. They talked it over and admitted they loved each other (and few more). But up until WH Rand had no idea whatsoever where he stood with Avi. Not about Avi's qualms in regards to her honor and her relationship with Elayne, both things that directly affect Rand. He had next to no idea where her head was at. Min not telling Rand about other people's future, things that don't involve him, is not quite the same thing. In truth, Min and Rand do actually have some semblance of open communication, as much as he's able to anyways.

 

That said, I understand what you mean in regards to Avi and Rand spending all that time together. They had great build up, but the fact that they didn't know each other's minds (Avi didn't know Rand loved her either) stunted their potential. Min/Rand on the other hand had a quicker, less developed beginning, but once they were romantically entangled their relationship built quite beautifully.

 

But I agree, communication is not a skill Rand's mastered. His women, with the exception of Min, are no better at it.

[Sasha Grayes]

Min relationship is terrible. She doesn't act like the third and latest wife that she is. Elayne is good because she knows she is the first, she acts like she is the first wife. Not insecure about it. Most first wives act like this because they know most inheritance go to her and her children. Avi is really good. She is insecure and never really knows her place. Middle child/wife case. Very good portrayal. With Min, she is the latest wife and clearly the favorite. But really doesn't act that way. Most of these clearly lords their title over the other wives. She may tell Rand that she is ok with it, but if she's with the other two, the relationship should be clearly antagonistic. Or it is the exact opposite and she follows the other two, like she is beneath them. And clearly I have only Big Love the HBO polygamist show for reference because I love and miss that show.

[Maleshub]

I don't mean that Rand/Avi don't talk in general, but there has been next to zero communication in regards to their relationship. They discussed Aiel culture, all sorts of things, but never their feelings. Practically the entire time they spent together, from the waste to Caemlyn, she left him utterly confused. He had no idea why she hated him, had sex with him, wouldn't pursue a romantic relationship with him, or what exactly constituted her feelings for him (fondness...or love?).

 

Rand knew where he stood with Min after they had sex. They talked it over and admitted they loved each other (and few more). But up until WH Rand had no idea whatsoever where he stood with Avi. Not about Avi's qualms in regards to her honor and her relationship with Elayne, both things that directly affect Rand. He had next to no idea where her head was at. Min not telling Rand about other people's future, things that don't involve him, is not quite the same thing. In truth, Min and Rand do actually have some semblance of open communication, as much as he's able to anyways.

 

That said, I understand what you mean in regards to Avi and Rand spending all that time together. They had great build up, but the fact that they didn't know each other's minds (Avi didn't know Rand loved her either) stunted their potential. Min/Rand on the other hand had a quicker, less developed beginning, but once they were romantically entangled their relationship built quite beautifully.

 

But I agree, communication is not a skill Rand's mastered. His women, with the exception of Min, are no better at it.

 

Reading between the lines in the Rand - Aviendha relationship doesn't give an indication that they don't know their feelings for each other. It shows that they are trying to resist those feelings. Rand knows that he loves her; and knows that she loves him. But he puts up barriers to save her from himself. And she knows that she loves him and that he likes her; but she resists a great deal in order to resolve her toh towards Elayne. There are many examples of this throughout their relationship. It will take time to dig out the quotes and organize the whole viewpoint from several books. But I have them since my second last re-read was focused on, among other things, Rand and his women.

[driedraspberry]

I don't mean that Rand/Avi don't talk in general, but there has been next to zero communication in regards to their relationship. They discussed Aiel culture, all sorts of things, but never their feelings. Practically the entire time they spent together, from the waste to Caemlyn, she left him utterly confused. He had no idea why she hated him, had sex with him, wouldn't pursue a romantic relationship with him, or what exactly constituted her feelings for him (fondness...or love?).

 

Rand knew where he stood with Min after they had sex. They talked it over and admitted they loved each other (and few more). But up until WH Rand had no idea whatsoever where he stood with Avi. Not about Avi's qualms in regards to her honor and her relationship with Elayne, both things that directly affect Rand. He had next to no idea where her head was at. Min not telling Rand about other people's future, things that don't involve him, is not quite the same thing. In truth, Min and Rand do actually have some semblance of open communication, as much as he's able to anyways.

 

That said, I understand what you mean in regards to Avi and Rand spending all that time together. They had great build up, but the fact that they didn't know each other's minds (Avi didn't know Rand loved her either) stunted their potential. Min/Rand on the other hand had a quicker, less developed beginning, but once they were romantically entangled their relationship built quite beautifully.

 

But I agree, communication is not a skill Rand's mastered. His women, with the exception of Min, are no better at it.

 

Reading between the lines in the Rand - Aviendha relationship doesn't give an indication that they don't know their feelings for each other. It shows that they are trying to resist those feelings. Rand knows that he loves her; and knows that she loves him. But he puts up barriers to save her from himself. And she knows that she loves him and that he likes her; but she resists a great deal in order to resolve her toh towards Elayne. There are many examples of this throughout their relationship. It will take time to dig out the quotes and organize the whole viewpoint from several books. But I have them since my second last re-read was focused on, among other things, Rand and his women.

 

You've misunderstood me. Rand and Avi know their own feelings, but not the others. Rand doesn't really know what Avi feels for him. Not until WH. And in the first-sister ceremony it's pretty obvious Avi thinks Rand doesn't love her.

 

Their relationship is founded on much confusion and miscommunication. Contrast that to Min, who forces Rand to sit down and discuss wtf is going on between them.

[Clouded]

You've misunderstood me. Rand and Avi know their own feelings, but not the others. Rand doesn't really know what Avi feels for him. Not until WH. And in the first-sister ceremony it's pretty obvious Avi thinks Rand doesn't love her.

 

Their relationship is founded on much confusion and miscommunication. Contrast that to Min, who forces Rand to sit down and discuss wtf is going on between them.

 

I agree that their relationship doesn't really become a relationship until WH, but I don't fault Rand or Aviendha for it. Avhienda does not tell Rand her feelings or desires in order to prevent incurring more toh to Elayne. Rand doesn't understand why she is holding back, but tries to do the respectable thing and not force it. He reinforces his decision to avoid her with the motive of keeping her safe. I think it all plays out realistically.

 

You're definitely right about Rand's lack of communication skills messing with his relationships. But this is the Wheel of Time, lack of communication is pretty much the name of the game.

[Maleshub]

You've misunderstood me. Rand and Avi know their own feelings, but not the others. Rand doesn't really know what Avi feels for him. Not until WH. And in the first-sister ceremony it's pretty obvious Avi thinks Rand doesn't love her.

 

Their relationship is founded on much confusion and miscommunication. Contrast that to Min, who forces Rand to sit down and discuss wtf is going on between them.

 

If the "Far Snows" didn't tell Rand that Aviendha loved him; then he's really dense. Aviendha pretty much said to him that she will run away no more; and that the rings could not lie. And you may remember their return trip to Caemlyn from Cairhien when the Gray Man attempted to kill him in the Royal Palace. Rand suggested that they talk in the bedroom; but Aviendha refused vehemently. After she left, he sat laughing at that. It doesn't take much for the man to figure out that the manner of her avoidance is not rejection of him; but because she didn't trust herself not to repeat the "Far Snows" again. The whole Royal Palace noticed that Rand was avoiding Aviendha, including Bashere and Bael; and the Maidens were taunting Aviendha about mooning over Rand's eyebrows. It was no secret the two loved each other but resisted that love.

[Vardar]

You've misunderstood me. Rand and Avi know their own feelings, but not the others. Rand doesn't really know what Avi feels for him. Not until WH. And in the first-sister ceremony it's pretty obvious Avi thinks Rand doesn't love her.

 

Their relationship is founded on much confusion and miscommunication. Contrast that to Min, who forces Rand to sit down and discuss wtf is going on between them.

 

I agree that their relationship doesn't really become a relationship until WH, but I don't fault Rand or Aviendha for it. Avhienda does not tell Rand her feelings or desires in order to prevent incurring more toh to Elayne. Rand doesn't understand why she is holding back, but tries to do the respectable thing and not force it. He reinforces his decision to avoid her with the motive of keeping her safe. I think it all plays out realistically.

 

You're definitely right about Rand's lack of communication skills messing with his relationships. But this is the Wheel of Time, lack of communication is pretty much the name of the game.

 

The most apt quote ever. The lack of communcation pisses me off, and actually makes me reevaluate some of my personal relantionships.

[fuzz1717]

You've misunderstood me. Rand and Avi know their own feelings, but not the others. Rand doesn't really know what Avi feels for him. Not until WH. And in the first-sister ceremony it's pretty obvious Avi thinks Rand doesn't love her.

 

Their relationship is founded on much confusion and miscommunication. Contrast that to Min, who forces Rand to sit down and discuss wtf is going on between them.

 

I agree that their relationship doesn't really become a relationship until WH, but I don't fault Rand or Aviendha for it. Avhienda does not tell Rand her feelings or desires in order to prevent incurring more toh to Elayne. Rand doesn't understand why she is holding back, but tries to do the respectable thing and not force it. He reinforces his decision to avoid her with the motive of keeping her safe. I think it all plays out realistically.

 

You're definitely right about Rand's lack of communication skills messing with his relationships. But this is the Wheel of Time, lack of communication is pretty much the name of the game.

 

The most apt quote ever. The lack of communcation pisses me off, and actually makes me reevaluate some of my personal relantionships.

 

+1. You would think that with Rand's bond to his women (as of WH), the availibility of instant travel through Gateways/Skimming, and the importance the three women represent to Rand (queen of a powerful nation, Aiel representative, and girl who can see the future) it seems strange that from LoC on, Rand avoids Avi and Elayne for pretty much the rest of the series (except that one part in WH). In fact, Rand probably doesn't even know Elayne is pregnant (or at least he was never told on screen). Talk about communication issues, geez.

[Lisa Campbell]

...

 

But many of her actions during and after the succession clearly didn't have Rand's interest as top priority. She distanced herself from him in the succession (for obvious reasons); but it grated her that Sashelle handed her Cairhien from Rand (although that was the case). And she was already thinking ahead to the day that Rand dies and his Empire has to be inherited. She is already maneuvering for a favorable posture in the post-Rand world.

 

Well she is the ruler of two nations now and she knows that Rand is going to die. Why would she not think of securing her position and how that will help her after. In a way, she is planning to fulfil what she sees as Rand's legacy. First she helps him save the world, then she plans to rebuild it after his death. She knows Rand wants this because of his schools. I know she re-names the one in Caemlyn but she is grieving for her mother and wants the world to remember Morgase, that's not selfish either.

 

Because she is impulsive and puts herself in danger so much attests to the fact that she is not selfish. Much like Siuan's reading that Mat will enter a burning building and die to save others. When fighting the Seanchan on the way to Murandy/Caemlyn, he muses that a man could get himself killed in the frontlines of battle. Does he surround himself with bodies to shield him? Does he run away? No, he fights on the frontline because he is not selfish and does not expect his army to take any more risks than he does. Even fighting the Gholam, he tells Talmanes and the rest to run after they have performed their tasks,

 

Edit: added the bold parts, no special significance to them.

[driedraspberry]

You've misunderstood me. Rand and Avi know their own feelings, but not the others. Rand doesn't really know what Avi feels for him. Not until WH. And in the first-sister ceremony it's pretty obvious Avi thinks Rand doesn't love her.

 

Their relationship is founded on much confusion and miscommunication. Contrast that to Min, who forces Rand to sit down and discuss wtf is going on between them.

 

I agree that their relationship doesn't really become a relationship until WH, but I don't fault Rand or Aviendha for it. Avhienda does not tell Rand her feelings or desires in order to prevent incurring more toh to Elayne. Rand doesn't understand why she is holding back, but tries to do the respectable thing and not force it. He reinforces his decision to avoid her with the motive of keeping her safe. I think it all plays out realistically.

 

You're definitely right about Rand's lack of communication skills messing with his relationships. But this is the Wheel of Time, lack of communication is pretty much the name of the game.

 

The most apt quote ever. The lack of communcation pisses me off, and actually makes me reevaluate some of my personal relantionships.

 

+1. You would think that with Rand's bond to his women (as of WH), the availibility of instant travel through Gateways/Skimming, and the importance the three women represent to Rand (queen of a powerful nation, Aiel representative, and girl who can see the future) it seems strange that from LoC on, Rand avoids Avi and Elayne for pretty much the rest of the series (except that one part in WH). In fact, Rand probably doesn't even know Elayne is pregnant (or at least he was never told on screen). Talk about communication issues, geez.

 

In his mind, Rand thinks he's protecting them by keeping his distance. On the other hand, he can wear a disguise and visit them if he really wanted to. Sigh. I do appreciate Elayne being a boss single parent, practice for later I guess.

[Siswai_Dar]

Have to admit i'm a little bit of two minds about Rand and Avi's relationship. On the one hand, it seemed to grow quite naturally- Avi trying to deny her feelings to him with not much success while he's falling in love with her because she saw him as a human being and not as a walking legend or a living prophecy doomed to destroy her people. But then he send her away and the chance for them to open up to each other and talk about their feelings is lost. But that was far from the worst part- what really irked me was the fact that in TGS she was practically on his doorstep and yet he never tried to contact her! he did think it was weird that she avoided him but he never tried to approach her and ask why.As to his relationship with Elayne I have nothing more to add- just plain hormones and hornyness on both sides.

 

Despite that, I voted for Thom and Moiraine. when Moiraine popped the question I just echoed Mat and was like WHAT??. There was no explanation, no hint, no time for that to happen. Even in the few times Thom admits she's pretty and impressive he immediately rejects the mere idea of thinking of her romantically. I swear that up until that moment I was convinced he had gone through all the trouble of rescuing her just for the info on the Reds who gentled Owyn.

[Maleshub]

...

 

But many of her actions during and after the succession clearly didn't have Rand's interest as top priority. She distanced herself from him in the succession (for obvious reasons); but it grated her that Sashelle handed her Cairhien from Rand (although that was the case). And she was already thinking ahead to the day that Rand dies and his Empire has to be inherited. She is already maneuvering for a favorable posture in the post-Rand world.

 

Well she is the ruler of two nations now and she knows that Rand is going to die. Why would she not think of securing her position and how that will help her after. In a way, she is planning to fulfil what she sees as Rand's legacy. First she helps him save the world, then she plans to rebuild it after his death. She knows Rand wants this because of his schools. I know she re-names the one in Caemlyn but she is grieving for her mother and wants the world to remember Morgase, that's not selfish either.

 

Because she is impulsive and puts herself in danger so much attests to the fact that she is not selfish. Much like Siuan's reading that Mat will enter a burning building and die to save others. When fighting the Seanchan on the way to Murandy/Caemlyn, he muses that a man could get himself killed in the frontlines of battle. Does he surround himself with bodies to shield him? Does he run away? No, he fights on the frontline because he is not selfish and does not expect his army to take any more risks than he does. Even fighting the Gholam, he tells Talmanes and the rest to run after they have performed their tasks,

 

Edit: added the bold parts, no special significance to them.

 

Then how do you explain her turnabout position regarding Rand's thoughts about breaking the seals? In her first encounter with Egwene in TAR on the issue, she seemed to defend Rand. But in her meeting with Perrin later, she's calling him names for upsetting Egwene.

 

I don't want this to turn into a discussion on Rand and sealing the Bore. But I just wanted to cite an example of Elayne's flippancy, even when Rand is involved. I am sure that Aviendha and Min have more confidence in Rand than her.