Moiraine and Lan didn't find Rand odd in EOTW???

[Lisa Campbell]

I don't know why you think Moiraine should have known about the Aiel, can you please explain?

 

"The Stone of Tear will never fall, till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon’s hand.

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till the People of the Dragon come."

 

Can you please confirm that these quotes are both from the prophecies of the Dragon? Humour me if you will. Please (do we need an emo for begging?)

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't know why you think Moiraine should have known about the Aiel, can you please explain?

 

"The Stone of Tear will never fall, till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon’s hand.

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till the People of the Dragon come."

 

Can you please confirm that these quotes are both from the prophecies of the Dragon? Humour me if you will. Please (do we need an emo for begging?)

 

No problem. After all, anyone can put anything in quotation marks and say it is real.

 

Here is the link to the full thing: http://wot.wikia.com...cle#cite_note-6

 

For a condensed version, yes, this is the Karatheon Cycle (which is the prophecies of the Dragon I assume you are talking about?)

 

The texual passage is Eye of the World Chapter 13, where Thom quotes the KC with this passage. (for reasons I can't remember at the moment, it is there though)

 

Edit: Also worth noting in reference to the topic in general, the prophecies of Rhuiedan are there also.

[Luckers]

And how the hell did the Aiel follow Rand or know who/what he was? I never got that, did I miss something?

 

They had clues, both from the Prophecy of Rhuidean, and from the Wise One Dreamwalkers, that He Who Comes With The Dawn (I'm really sorry but I still think that was a very stupid hero title, which is maybe why RJ replaced it with car'a'carn and it was never heard from again) would come from the Wetlands. The Prophecies states that he would be raised from blood of our blood (Aiel) mixed with an old blood (Andor), raised by an Ancient blood not our own (Manetheren). The Dreamwalkers foresaw that this would be answered in the Wetlands, a point Rand raised himself against Couladin's claim.

 

From there, they were told that they were to seek clues--oddities. It is made clear by Urien, Gaul and Rhuarc that that was the major part of their instruction from the Prophecies and the Dreamwalkers. Basically... pay attention. And they did--hence when Nynaeve referenced the Stone of Tear, they didn't ignore it as a glib comment, they thought to themselves that their own prophecies mentioned Tear, and did what they were instructed--following clues when they saw them. That Gaul would have been able to bring what Perrin told him about Rand into the game would have only cemented it.

 

By the same note, when they witnessed Lan, Moiraine, Rand, Mat and Juilin each, respectively, break into the Stone they simply knew enough to act from the sheer basis of THAT'S ODD.

 

So from there they took his appearence and decided he was "The One"

 

I like "He who comes with the Dawn" it's funny as hell. Mostly because it reminds me of a Native American name.

 

Where did you get the oddities thing? Uriel talking to the Borderlanders because they were so far from home? He said we will know it when we see it?

 

Pretty much re: the one. I mean... his appearence, him killing Forsaken in the Stone of Tear which features in their prophecy. Aes Sedai seeking the Heart of the Stone, Perrin telling them the one they seek is in Tear.

 

Even then, mind you, they didn't simply assume it. They thought it likely, but it wasn't till Rhuidean that they knew.

 

As I said, their basic instruction was to look and keep an open mind. If something struck them as odd, they should pay attention. And yes, Urien's comments are that they would know it when they see it taken and used to regard Rhuarc and Gaul's reactions when they found odd things is what makes this clear.

 

Which is three (2.5 if you want to get techo) books after Moiraine picks them up in the Two Rivers which is the setting pertaining to the original question. Utterly irrelevant - don't think so

 

And what part of my point was pertaining to the original question? I mean, perhaps if I hadn't made very precisely clear that I was making a point that was distinct from the original question this response might be amusngly accurate in a cuttingly sarcastic way.

 

Conversations evolve Elci, and yes, I do think your response was utterly irrelevent to my point.

 

Sorry Luckers, I was under the impression that honesty and indicating humour were acceptable here. My smiley wasn't meant to be sarcastic it was meant to be friendly, you know I respect your opinions. I've seen others let you know they weren't on the same page as you without that kind of response. Yes my post was irrelevant to what you had said previously but I was carrying on with another convo. I was pointing out what mine was relevant to. I've been around long enough to know that conversations evolve, but I hadn't finished with mine. Sorry for being too slow for you.

 

Honesty and indicating humour are accepted here, and when someone genuinely has let me know that they were on a different page I like to think I do, as you stated, respond without rancor.

 

That being said, I let my own frustration inform my response, and for that I do appologise.

[Lisa Campbell]

Thanks, I'll be back

[Vardar]

I don't know why you think Moiraine should have known about the Aiel, can you please explain?

 

"The Stone of Tear will never fall, till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon’s hand.

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till the People of the Dragon come."

 

Can you please confirm that these quotes are both from the prophecies of the Dragon? Humour me if you will. Please (do we need an emo for begging?)

 

That was from the prophecies. Thom said it at one point.

[Lisa Campbell]

That was really good to see it all together like that. I found the last 10 lines or so particularly interesting. I hadn't imagined them in that order. Makes it seem that a lot is going to happen after Shayol Ghul.

 

Mat snatching the moons out of the sky - eclipse anyone?

[Barid Bel Medar]

That was really good to see it all together like that. I found the last 10 lines or so particularly interesting. I hadn't imagined them in that order. Makes it seem that a lot is going to happen after Shayol Ghul.

 

Mat snatching the moons out of the sky - eclipse anyone?

 

I don't think this is any official order of the prophecies. If it is, I don't know where it is said it.

 

I think it is just a compilation of the prophecies that the author put into an order that seems relatively accurate. (or in order of fulfillment, with the Last Battle at the bottom)

 

Also, with the Mat prophecies, I think that one is usually thought to be him kidnapping Tuon and marrying her.

[Lisa Campbell]

@Barid: I'm basing this on that particular order because I'm assuming it was picked to bits to get it right. There was a few bits that I thought could be switched but it still reads fine and logical as is, perhaps better. So on that order:

 

Rand had already bound Tuon, Mat had already married her.

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high,

with the fox that made the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons out of the sky

 

What I was insinuating was that the last line could refer to Mat ending the eclipse we see on the cover for AMOL. Do you have any thoughts on that? It's wild I know but it hit me as soon as I saw it at the end.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Fair enough, it is worth noting that even though by that time this had already happened, it doesn't mean it didn't reference it.

 

It does not necessarily indicate the future. It could well have already happened. Sometimes we get the prophecy after the event.

 

As to the eclipse, it is probably best to start a new thread and not overtake this one, however, just generally, I can see it being possible. It does see to vaguely represent that, however there are a few problems. Why would it be "moons" plural? IIRC, there is only one moon in Randland, just like earth. Also, the eclipse would be snatching the sun, not moon out of the sky.

 

If you want to start a thread I would post in more detail about it, but they are my general thoughts on the matter.

[Lisa Campbell]

I'll discuss if you want, maybe topic could be order of stanza's on wiki prophecy? I'm sure you could think of a better one though I think it could get interesting seeing as how screwed up the timelines are and wouldn't that be soooo RJ?

[AquilaInfernus]

With regards to Matt, IIRC, Moiraine and Rand discuss the Prophecies at some point in the Stone of Tear, and at least a couple of those are implied to have already happened (can't quote, no books at hand). Given we have unspecified timeline for Semirhage's Seanchan slaughterfest, Matt could very well have 'snatched the moons' when he kidnapped Tuon. Her imperial title as heir is of course Daughter of the Nine Moons (note the heir status and plural moons). I do find it odd that the Empress would be known alternatively as The Nine Moons. Reminds me of all those "Your mum's so fat..." jokes

 

This thread is itself based on a retroactive solution to a line of prophecy.

 

And a brief side note on Moiraine and Lan's knowledge in EotW. Everyone seems to have overlooked Min, who had already identified the importance of all the party, and specifically images that would certainly ring bells for anyone familiar with the Prophecies. Remember she specifically told Rand that at least two characters were needed to spot the sparks and darkness the first time she saw them (and spoke with Moiraine), but later did not. Also, Rand and Galad are half brothers, sharing Andoran royal blood - the line that is rumoured to carry Aiel blood - perhaps the warder and Aes Sedai had suspicions directed there. Either way, I don't think Moiraine was so concerned with specific prophecies with Trollocs and Myddraal in hot pursuit.

[Suttree]

With regards to Matt, IIRC, Moiraine and Rand discuss the Prophecies at some point in the Stone of Tear, and at least a couple of those are implied to have already happened (can't quote, no books at hand). Given we have unspecified timeline for Semirhage's Seanchan slaughterfest, Matt could very well have 'snatched the moons' when he kidnapped Tuon. Her imperial title as heir is of course Daughter of the Nine Moons (note the heir status and plural moons). I do find it odd that the Empress would be known alternatively as The Nine Moons. Reminds me of all those "Your mum's so fat..." jokes

 

Seeing as how Tuon was still daughter of and not the actual not sure that could fulfill the prophecy.

[Maleshub]

In the Eye of the World, we have Loial giving us a hint that Rand is Aiel. Then Gawyn Trakand telling Rand that he would be Aiel if a shoufa is wrapped around his head. Then the Green Man calls Rand Aiel.

 

If those three, especially Gawyn Trakand, can recognize Rand's Aiel likeness, would Moiraine Damodred miss that? There is no flaming way she'd miss that flaming link; her being Tower trained, being Laman's niece, she should know more than anyone else in Randland what Aiel look like, and having Lan as her Warder is another nudge in that direction. He'll recognize an Aielman better than any Trakand!

[TristanWebb]

Hedging her bets. It seems obvious that Rand is Aiel, but Andorans do have the reddish hair and complexions, and she knew Tam had taken an outlander wife. Besides, the Shadow was after all three of them regardless of who was the Dragon, and she said she opposes whatever the Shadow wants.

 

It was far more likely to be Rand, but Moiraine isn't Mat to go trusting to luck.

[Maleshub]

Hedging her bets. It seems obvious that Rand is Aiel, but Andorans do have the reddish hair and complexions, and she knew Tam had taken an outlander wife. Besides, the Shadow was after all three of them regardless of who was the Dragon, and she said she opposes whatever the Shadow wants.

 

It was far more likely to be Rand, but Moiraine isn't Mat to go trusting to luck.

 

There is no luck involved in recognizing Rand's Aiel features (height, hair, eyes, complexion). And if the Queen of Andor, Elaida, and Gareth Bryne only believe Rand is from the Two Rivers because of his speech (because his description according to them doesn't fit), why would Moiraine get confused about that.

 

Again, if flaming Gawyn Trakand can recognize Rand's flaming Aiel features, why wouldn't a flaming Aes Sedai trained in the flaming White Tower, and is the flaming cousin to the flaming idiot who brought the flaming Aiel over the flaming Dragonwall, recognize those same flaming features?

 

(You might have already guessed how much I miss Uno and hope to see him in AMoL)

[TristanWebb]

Just because he was Aiel doesn't mean he was the one she was looking for. It makes It more likely since the Aiel were besieging Tar Valon at the time, but the Pattern loves conincidence. There are three boys all within the same birthdate, the Shadow wants all three. Even it it was 90% chance of being Rand, and 5% of being the other two, why would you throw away that chance when it is so easy just to take them along as well? After that when they were seperated, there was no way for her to know which of them had the coin so she couldn't just chase after Rand, then they were all together in Caemlyn and then Rand was revealed as the One True Dragon.

 

Think of it from her perspective. She takes the Aiel boy and it turns out he was essentially nothing, Mat was the one born on Dragonmount while his father was out there getting rich trading horses to a desperate army, she looks foolish now doesn't she?

[Maleshub]

Just because he was Aiel doesn't mean he was the one she was looking for. It makes It more likely since the Aiel were besieging Tar Valon at the time, but the Pattern loves conincidence. There are three boys all within the same birthdate, the Shadow wants all three. Even it it was 90% chance of being Rand, and 5% of being the other two, why would you throw away that chance when it is so easy just to take them along as well? After that when they were seperated, there was no way for her to know which of them had the coin so she couldn't just chase after Rand, then they were all together in Caemlyn and then Rand was revealed as the One True Dragon.

 

Think of it from her perspective. She takes the Aiel boy and it turns out he was essentially nothing, Mat was the one born on Dragonmount while his father was out there getting rich trading horses to a desperate army, she looks foolish now doesn't she?

 

If we look at the issue from the point of "who is the DR?;" then yes, she has to leave all options open. But the question I was trying to tackle is "why didn't Moiraine and Lan react or recognize Rand's Aielness?"

[shortkut]

Because we don't really see their POV and nothing suprises them anymore?

[XoMeltdownoX]

I think it is safe to assume Lan and Moir did recognize that Rand had Aiel features. We just do not get their POV's and has been stated, they play their cards close. Early in TDR when Rand leaves the group while Moir, Lan, Loial and Perrin chase after, Moiraine makes reference to Rand having the long legs and stamina of his people. At this stage Moiraine has not made contact with any Aiel, so the observation is her own and has not been pointed out to her by some outside source.

[Maleshub]

I think it is safe to assume Lan and Moir did recognize that Rand had Aiel features. We just do not get their POV's and has been stated, they play their cards close. Early in TDR when Rand leaves the group while Moir, Lan, Loial and Perrin chase after, Moiraine makes reference to Rand having the long legs and stamina of his people. At this stage Moiraine has not made contact with any Aiel, so the observation is her own and has not been pointed out to her by some outside source.

 

+1 ; Nice catch and reminder on Moiraine's recognition of Rand's blood.

[Durinax]

Just because he was Aiel doesn't mean he was the one she was looking for. It makes It more likely since the Aiel were besieging Tar Valon at the time, but the Pattern loves conincidence. There are three boys all within the same birthdate, the Shadow wants all three. Even it it was 90% chance of being Rand, and 5% of being the other two, why would you throw away that chance when it is so easy just to take them along as well? After that when they were seperated, there was no way for her to know which of them had the coin so she couldn't just chase after Rand, then they were all together in Caemlyn and then Rand was revealed as the One True Dragon.

 

Think of it from her perspective. She takes the Aiel boy and it turns out he was essentially nothing, Mat was the one born on Dragonmount while his father was out there getting rich trading horses to a desperate army, she looks foolish now doesn't she?

 

If we look at the issue from the point of "who is the DR?;" then yes, she has to leave all options open. But the question I was trying to tackle is "why didn't Moiraine and Lan react or recognize Rand's Aielness?"

I would imagine that the Aiel blood is all over randland, although not necessarily prevelant like it is in Randland, plus the fact that Andorans sometimes have light colour hair and eyes, they could have chalked it up to that initially so that they wouldn't overlook anything among the other two candidates

[NetSlider]

Good point. And as far as reason why the aeil shoild have been on the top of the list is bc how many women would have been on the side of the dragonmount durring a bettle? Obviously its possible that it was non-aiel female (which of course it was in another context) but if i was the one looking for a baby born on the bettle fiels aiel looking baby would be def number 1 priority.

[Durinax]

Good point. And as far as reason why the aeil shoild have been on the top of the list is bc how many women would have been on the side of the dragonmount durring a bettle? Obviously its possible that it was non-aiel female (which of course it was in another context) but if i was the one looking for a baby born on the bettle fiels aiel looking baby would be def number 1 priority.

well it is possible that the Aiel engaged in the common practice of conquerer's rights (in terms of women) although unlikely in the unrealistical honour driven society. But if they did, Aiel looking children would be common

[David Selig]

Just because he was Aiel doesn't mean he was the one she was looking for. It makes It more likely since the Aiel were besieging Tar Valon at the time, but the Pattern loves conincidence. There are three boys all within the same birthdate, the Shadow wants all three. Even it it was 90% chance of being Rand, and 5% of being the other two, why would you throw away that chance when it is so easy just to take them along as well? After that when they were seperated, there was no way for her to know which of them had the coin so she couldn't just chase after Rand, then they were all together in Caemlyn and then Rand was revealed as the One True Dragon.

 

Think of it from her perspective. She takes the Aiel boy and it turns out he was essentially nothing, Mat was the one born on Dragonmount while his father was out there getting rich trading horses to a desperate army, she looks foolish now doesn't she?

 

If we look at the issue from the point of "who is the DR?;" then yes, she has to leave all options open. But the question I was trying to tackle is "why didn't Moiraine and Lan react or recognize Rand's Aielness?"

There are some Andorans who look exactly like Aiel. Gawyn for one. Very tall, blue eyes, reddish-blond hair, etc. Lord Luc too. Kari al'Thor had red hair and gray eyes and might've been tall. It was actually more likely that Rand was no Aiel given where he was raised.

 

I'd say Gawyn's "You look exactly like an Aielman" reaction to Rand was a bit forced, BTW, given that he looked very much like Gawyn himself and many other Andorans.

[Lisa Campbell]

In the Eye of the World, we have Loial giving us a hint that Rand is Aiel. Then Gawyn Trakand telling Rand that he would be Aiel if a shoufa is wrapped around his head. Then the Green Man calls Rand Aiel.

 

If those three, especially Gawyn Trakand, can recognize Rand's Aiel likeness, would Moiraine Damodred miss that? There is no flaming way she'd miss that flaming link; her being Tower trained, being Laman's niece, she should know more than anyone else in Randland what Aiel look like, and having Lan as her Warder is another nudge in that direction. He'll recognize an Aielman better than any Trakand!

 

Moiraine never got close to an Aiel in the Aiel War, she was Accepted in the Tower, so her being Laman's niece is an invalid argument as far as I am concerned. After being raised, she was hell bent on finding the 'Baby Dragon', I don't think she's ever encountered the Aiel until recently past and present times. She suspected the Windfinders to be able to channel, but was flabbergasted at the Aiel's abilities and intended for Lan to tell her what he knew of them, he said she had never asked before (paraphrasing).