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Moiraine and Lan didn't find Rand odd in EOTW???


bigdoug1971
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I'm doing a re-read and I'm up to the part where Rand and Mat finally make it to Caemlyn and the inn where Thom told them to go after Whitebridge. Rand meets Loial for the 1st time in the Library.

 

During their 1st meeting and 1st conversation Loial thinks Rand is an Aielman. He even gives Rand the quote about "To spit in Sightblinders eye on the Last day". When Rand didn't react, Loial asked if it was some of his Aiel humor because they laugh at the strangest things and Rand had no idea what he was talking about. Also, there was a soldier (Masema?) who hated him on site for looking just like an Aielman no matter how many times they told him he was from Emonds Field in the Great Hunt.

 

My question is this.....Lan has fought Aiel. Lan was a commander during the Aiel War. He even tells Rand outside of Rhuidian how you can beat them in battle. (Remember, Avienda gets mad about it and Rhuarc tells her to chill out). If Rand stands out that quickly to Loial the 1st time they met, why didn't Lan recognize him for what he was immediately? Even with the story of Tam bringing home and outlander wife, wouldn't Lan and Moiraine have thought he must have married and Aiel for Rand to look as he does?

 

Shouldn't he have stuck out like a sore thumb among the Emonds Fielders? When Moiraine was looking for someone born outside the Two Rivers shouldn't he have set an alarm off in her head? Even with Nyneave's lie about everyone being born there, he clearly looks like an Aielman or Loial wouldn't have been so quick to comment when they first met.

 

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why these two well-traveled, worldly people didn't recognize an Aielman on sight as far as the are from the Waste.

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Well, first of all, he does stick out like a sore thumb. But at that point, Moiraine doesn't know she's looking for an Aielman. She just knows she's looking for a boy of a certain age, who was born outside the TR, (on the slopes of Dragonmount, to be precise). And Moiraine is intensely interested in him from the first time she see him, much more obviously so than she is interested in Mat or Perrin. It seems clear to me that she suspected Rand to be the Dragon Reborn much more so than she suspected either Mat or Perrin of being the same from the very beginning.

 

And why would she have dwelt on the fact that he looked Aielish? She played her cards close to the vest all the way up to her "death" at the redstone doorway, and in the EOTW, we don't get many POVs from her for much of the first parts of the books, they're mostly Rand, so if she thought it, we wouldn't have known. She wouldn't have had any reason to comment to Rand that he looked like a legendarily belligerent foreigner among the TR people, especially since she doesn't want him to put up his back to her. And since Lan follows her lead, he wouldn't have commented on it either. Moreover, she didn't know that being Aiel was significant to being the Dragon Reborn. She had no clue who the People of the Dragon were. So she wasn't really looking for an Aielman to begin with.

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Moiraine may not have recognised him as Aiel but Lan should have, Loial definately will because his stedding gets Aiel Traders. Moiraine has probably never seen an Aiel before then. Perhaps had descriptions and drawings.

Edited by rand4747
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"He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood."

Obviously the Aiel are ancient blood and Manetheren is old blood. It seems like Moraine should have been able to tell right away.

But then again, nobody really knew anything about the Aiel before the fall of Tear so i dont know if it is common knowledge that the Aiel have been around since the AoL

But Moraine is Carthenian Noble and had to know the history of the tree that laman tore down So she would have known that Carhien gave the Aiel safety during the breaking

Edited by Valley of Death
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"He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood."

Obviously the Aiel are ancient blood and Manetheren is old blood. It seems like Moraine should have been able to tell right away.

But then again, nobody really knew anything about the Aiel before the fall of Tear so i dont know if it is common knowledge that the Aiel have been around since the AoL

But Moraine is Carthenian Noble and had to know the history of the tree that laman tore down So she would have known that Carhien gave the Aiel safety during the breaking

 

I think that's Aiel prophecy of Rhuidean, Moiraine wouldn't have known it. Someone has mentioned that she had a clue at the end of New Spring but I think it more likely she was still crossing off options. By the end of the list (or when she gets to Illian maybe) she might hear a story about Tam finding a babe on Dragonmount and taking him home with his lovely outlander wife. There were supposed to be another two books about the search, I doubt she knew by the end of New Spring.

 

Also, Moiraine and Lan are well travelled and know that reddish gold hair and light eyes do not necessarily indicate an Aiel. Kari was a ranga, and the royal line of Andor has fair colouring. I think that they most likely didn't jump to conclusions, or knew before and just didn't say. They might have had a clue that the child was Aiel from their travels and research.

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A very interesting thought. And it is strange that Lan didn't comment on it. I got an impression that Moiraine and Lan were taking the three ta'veren through their baby steps as they fled the Two Rivers. Both didn't want to say or do anything to frighten them further. Trollocs and Fades are enough. Bringing the DR into the equation and that one of them will eventually channel would have caused chaos among the group. Moiraine managed very well to keep the group intact, focused, and going in the right direction, without unnecessary crises.

 

If Gawyn Trakand could tell Rand that he was Aiel, then I am sure that Moiraine and Lan knew. That in itself should be evidence enough. Why they didn't express this knowledge is something to consider.

Edited by Theodril
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Moiraine knew, Lan knew. They at least suspected.

 

They just have more mental control than Loial or Masema. Moiraine wouldn't go telling Rand he was Aiel, he doesn't trust Aes Sedai, why on earth would she tell him that everything he knew about himself was a lie, basically. She would not put his back up any more than it already was. As we can all recall, Moiraine and Lan were hardly forthcoming with information in tEotW for good reasons.

 

Moiraine would have no way of knowing that Aiel was the ancient blood. The only source of this knowledge that we know of is the Pillars of Ruidean. Probably some Brown knew, or it was recorded somewhere, but it was not common knowledge, and nothing to suggest Moiraine knew, or should have known. It was in no way "obvious" to anyone but the readers, if they had read past tSR.

 

Really, I don't think there is anything off here. Moiraine, and to a lesser extent, Lan knew or supsected half of the things about the 3 boys right from the start. They just didn't blurt their suspicions and confuse them even more. Remember, they were simple farmers/blacksmiths barely come of age. Moiraine and Lan would not burden them with things that they couldn't possibly understand, only to make matters worse and raise their suspicions.

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That's not the only wierd thing. Consider, why didn't Moiraine connect the Aiel as the people of the Dragon? By that point in the story she definately knew Rand was born to the Aiel, whether or not she made the connection in the Eye (she even speaks of it). So, ignoring the historical naming of the Aiel in the War of the Shadow, the Aiel WERE Rand's people, and a people who have come to the Stone of Tear for the first time when it falls. That alone should have clued her in, even if she missed the part where Someshta named Rand a child of the Dragon.

 

But yes, the fact that she was there looking for a baby born in the Blood Snow, and here was this guy who looked Aiel compared to her other two suspects who looked pure Two Rivers, should have clued her in. Of course we aren't really sure when she reached the conclusion that Rand, not Mat or Perrin, was the boy she sought. She appears uncertain right through till just near the end of the Eye, but Moiraine dissembles like other people breathe, and she could very easily have been hiding her realisation that Rand was the Dragon behind her general presentation of not knowing why any of the boys are being hunted.

 

I always thought it strange that Moiraine or Siuan never considered the Aiel as a possibility early on. Cultural arrogance at play, I suppose, the same as where Moiraine went behind Rand's back to try and convince the Wise Ones to stop the Aiel from crossing the Dragonwall.

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The prophecy of Rhuidean would not have been recorded anywhere by anyone. The Wise Ones and Chiefs will only discuss it amongst themselves. The only place it is recorded is in the columns.

 

I think Moiraine was confused about the Children of the Dragon in the Kareathon Cycle. Rhuarc was reluctant to speak of it even when Rand asked him directly. Come to think of it, wasn't it Urien or Gaul who told Perrin about the relationship between the fall of the Stone and the Aiel? I could be wrong about it being in the Kareathon Cycle at all but if not, how would Rand have known to ask. Rhuarc wasn't exactly forthcoming with Rand about the prophecy of Rhuidean. He told Perrin something like, if he is the one he will do them, as in things to prove he was the Car'a'carn.

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The prophecy of Rhuidean would not have been recorded anywhere by anyone. The Wise Ones and Chiefs will only discuss it amongst themselves. The only place it is recorded is in the columns.

 

I think Moiraine was confused about the Children of the Dragon in the Kareathon Cycle. Rhuarc was reluctant to speak of it even when Rand asked him directly. Come to think of it, wasn't it Urien or Gaul who told Perrin about the relationship between the fall of the Stone and the Aiel? I could be wrong about it being in the Kareathon Cycle at all but if not, how would Rand have known to ask. Rhuarc wasn't exactly forthcoming with Rand about the prophecy of Rhuidean. He told Perrin something like, if he is the one he will do them, as in things to prove he was the Car'a'carn.

 

My point was that irrespective of the actual state of the Aiel being named the People of the Dragon during the War of the Shadow as a result of Lews Therin's protection of those who served the Forsaken prior to the war, Moiraine should still have come to the conclusion that the Aiel were the People of the Dragon. Rand is Aiel and the Aiel are the only people to have come to the Stone of Tear for the first time in their history, during its fall. It's not Rocket Surgery.

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But Moiraine would not have identified the modern day Aiel with the Dai'shain of old records, if any exist in this Age. Lots of knowledge was lost. And at Rhuidean, Moiraine seemed to merely find it curious to learn of Gai'shain leading to her translation of dedicated to peace in battle. She also talks about the translations of Aiel and Jenn Aiel. I know as well as you that she would have stored away every morsel of information but I think it was only that convo that triggered the relationship between the Aiel and the Dai'shain of olde in her mind. Which was why she dug for more.

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Rand's "Mother" had Aiel coloring and eyes, and all 3 boys were "Tall" for TR men (Not sure what that means, are TR midgets lol). And while Moriane should have known, it was easily explained away. The Greenman part cannot be explained away though. I mean that was pretty obvious.

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As soon as the Greenman said Child of the Dragon and saw Rand's expression of confusion and shock, he rubbed the fissure in his head and mumbled something or other about memory. If the Greenman doubted what he himself said, why should the others place any significance on it? We have almost all seeing eyes, they don't.

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But Moiraine would not have identified the modern day Aiel with the Dai'shain of old records, if any exist in this Age. Lots of knowledge was lost. And at Rhuidean, Moiraine seemed to merely find it curious to learn of Gai'shain leading to her translation of dedicated to peace in battle. She also talks about the translations of Aiel and Jenn Aiel. I know as well as you that she would have stored away every morsel of information but I think it was only that convo that triggered the relationship between the Aiel and the Dai'shain of olde in her mind. Which was why she dug for more.

 

All of which is utterly irrelevent to the point I'm making. Rand is Aiel. The Aiel are the only people to have come to the Stone of Tear for the first time during its fall.

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I'm not sure if we are all on the same page here.

 

Luckers is saying (I think, correct me if I am wrong) in the Dragon Reborn, when Aiel came to take the Stone of Tear, Moiraine should have seen it.

 

I agree.

 

The one which Elci (again, correct me if I am wrong) is that Moiraine, in tEoTW, should not have been expected to know Aiel=People of the Dragon.

 

As for not noticing Rand being Aiel, I think that she did know, but just didn't mention it, for various reasons in other posts.

 

Anyway, just a bit confusing, I thought we were all talking about different things.

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There are many textual instances in EOTW that comment on how little Moiraine and Lan react outwardly. I have no doubt that they noticed Rand's oddities, but giving enough outward sign to have the character notice it is another thing altogether. Most of the novel we follow Rand only, or a 3rd person subjective narration. So it is impossible to gain access to what M or L is thinking unless they actually tell someone.

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I'm not sure if we are all on the same page here.

 

Luckers is saying (I think, correct me if I am wrong) in the Dragon Reborn, when Aiel came to take the Stone of Tear, Moiraine should have seen it.

 

I agree.

 

The one which Elci (again, correct me if I am wrong) is that Moiraine, in tEoTW, should not have been expected to know Aiel=People of the Dragon.

 

As for not noticing Rand being Aiel, I think that she did know, but just didn't mention it, for various reasons in other posts.

 

Anyway, just a bit confusing, I thought we were all talking about different things.

 

Did Perrin tell her about Urien or Gaul? Lan knew what Perrin had done, but Perrin wasn't laying it on the line then because he still mistrusted Moiraine a bit.

 

And yeah Luckers and I are at different stages I was just pointing out where I was that's all. About Aiel = People/Children of the Dragon was a secondary point to back up my view that Moiraine could not have associated Aiel and Tear, I did mention originally that Moiraine and Lan did recognise Rand for Aiel but just kept their mouths shut. It was kinda a but at the end so may have been overlooked.

 

I don't know why you think Moiraine should have known about the Aiel, can you please explain?

Edited by YouMayCallMeElci
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Which is three (2.5 if you want to get techo) books after Moiraine picks them up in the Two Rivers which is the setting pertaining to the original question. Utterly irrelevant - don't think so :wink:

 

And what part of my point was pertaining to the original question? I mean, perhaps if I hadn't made very precisely clear that I was making a point that was distinct from the original question this response might be amusngly accurate in a cuttingly sarcastic way.

 

Conversations evolve Elci, and yes, I do think your response was utterly irrelevent to my point.

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I don't know why you think Moiraine should have known about the Aiel, can you please explain?

 

"The Stone of Tear will never fall, till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon’s hand.

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till the People of the Dragon come."

 

Her first clue would be that the Aiel turned up and took the Stone of Tear, while Rand snatched Callandor.

 

Yet she is still surprised when Rhuarc tells her they are the People of the Dragon. She shouldn't have been. It isn't hard to fill in the blanks at this stage.

 

That is the point here. Again, I think you are on a different page to the current conversation which Luckers is talking about. Thus the confusion.

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And how the hell did the Aiel follow Rand or know who/what he was? I never got that, did I miss something?

 

They had clues, both from the Prophecy of Rhuidean, and from the Wise One Dreamwalkers, that He Who Comes With The Dawn (I'm really sorry but I still think that was a very stupid hero title, which is maybe why RJ replaced it with car'a'carn and it was never heard from again) would come from the Wetlands. The Prophecies states that he would be raised from blood of our blood (Aiel) mixed with an old blood (Andor), raised by an Ancient blood not our own (Manetheren). The Dreamwalkers foresaw that this would be answered in the Wetlands, a point Rand raised himself against Couladin's claim.

 

From there, they were told that they were to seek clues--oddities. It is made clear by Urien, Gaul and Rhuarc that that was the major part of their instruction from the Prophecies and the Dreamwalkers. Basically... pay attention. And they did--hence when Nynaeve referenced the Stone of Tear, they didn't ignore it as a glib comment, they thought to themselves that their own prophecies mentioned Tear, and did what they were instructed--following clues when they saw them. That Gaul would have been able to bring what Perrin told him about Rand into the game would have only cemented it.

 

By the same note, when they witnessed Lan, Moiraine, Rand, Mat and Juilin each, respectively, break into the Stone they simply knew enough to act from the sheer basis of THAT'S ODD.

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And how the hell did the Aiel follow Rand or know who/what he was? I never got that, did I miss something?

 

They had clues, both from the Prophecy of Rhuidean, and from the Wise One Dreamwalkers, that He Who Comes With The Dawn (I'm really sorry but I still think that was a very stupid hero title, which is maybe why RJ replaced it with car'a'carn and it was never heard from again) would come from the Wetlands. The Prophecies states that he would be raised from blood of our blood (Aiel) mixed with an old blood (Andor), raised by an Ancient blood not our own (Manetheren). The Dreamwalkers foresaw that this would be answered in the Wetlands, a point Rand raised himself against Couladin's claim.

 

From there, they were told that they were to seek clues--oddities. It is made clear by Urien, Gaul and Rhuarc that that was the major part of their instruction from the Prophecies and the Dreamwalkers. Basically... pay attention. And they did--hence when Nynaeve referenced the Stone of Tear, they didn't ignore it as a glib comment, they thought to themselves that their own prophecies mentioned Tear, and did what they were instructed--following clues when they saw them. That Gaul would have been able to bring what Perrin told him about Rand into the game would have only cemented it.

 

By the same note, when they witnessed Lan, Moiraine, Rand, Mat and Juilin each, respectively, break into the Stone they simply knew enough to act from the sheer basis of THAT'S ODD.

 

So from there they took his appearence and decided he was "The One"

 

I like "He who comes with the Dawn" it's funny as hell. Mostly because it reminds me of a Native American name.

 

Where did you get the oddities thing? Uriel talking to the Borderlanders because they were so far from home? He said we will know it when we see it?

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Which is three (2.5 if you want to get techo) books after Moiraine picks them up in the Two Rivers which is the setting pertaining to the original question. Utterly irrelevant - don't think so :wink:

 

And what part of my point was pertaining to the original question? I mean, perhaps if I hadn't made very precisely clear that I was making a point that was distinct from the original question this response might be amusngly accurate in a cuttingly sarcastic way.

 

Conversations evolve Elci, and yes, I do think your response was utterly irrelevent to my point.

 

Sorry Luckers, I was under the impression that honesty and indicating humour were acceptable here. My smiley wasn't meant to be sarcastic it was meant to be friendly, you know I respect your opinions. I've seen others let you know they weren't on the same page as you without that kind of response. Yes my post was irrelevant to what you had said previously but I was carrying on with another convo. I was pointing out what mine was relevant to. I've been around long enough to know that conversations evolve, but I hadn't finished with mine. Sorry for being too slow for you.

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It is also worth noting that the Dreamwalkers could have seen it. IIRC, they knew at least a few things we see in book. If not, the point stands that they could have been sent by Dreamwalkers.

 

Besides, there HAD been a lot of oddities recently. Tarwin's Gap, Falme (the biggest one, IMO)

 

Also the fact they knew of Tigraine, and knowing her fate, and that of her child's (that it was left at Dragonmount, in any case), they would be expecting it to happen sometime soon.

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