Unasked Questions about Verin

[csnyder]

This is one I can think of that I can't seem able to find...

 

1)Who were the other members of her heart?

 

2)Who was her informant?

[csnyder]

1) I have this inkling that her heart encompassed Liandrin and Alviarin (might as well be, they all end in 'rin').

 

2) The informant has been stated to be Galina (as she knows of Alviarin), but are we to assume that each individual member of a single heart has its own informants? Or that the entire heart has one informant?

[Sharaman]

Sheriam's response to learning Verin had done the dirty (? clean?) on the BA might indicate that Sheriam was in Verin's heart. It's also likely in a general way that women who joined the BA around the same time would be in the same hearts.

[a5m]

Verin and Sheriam didn't join the Black Ajah around the same time. Verin joined 70 years ago, that's about 20-25 years before Sheriam was born.

[Master of Germs]

The whole "heart" business has some flaws. How is it possible to have hearts made only by 3 members. I seriously doubt that new BA members were included in the BA society only in groups of three. It is much more a private business. If I was in charge I wouldn't make a heart of three newcomers, at least one of them must be an experienced BA member. Which implies that there would still be a "change of heart" and in my opinion this should happen at least once in a century for each BA member (pure speculation, of course). So, i wouldn't be surprised if Sheriam had entered Verin's heart at the beginning, but suffered a change of heart afterwards, when she was promoted to the Council.

Sheriam and Verin being the "one's other" is also a possibility, after all they both submit information and maybe the change of the predominant direction of information flow was what set Verin on the trail that Sheriam had been promoted.

[fikkie77]

I always wondered how the Head of the Black Ajah kept an eye on the Ajah. As nobody knew more than 3 other BA members, how did messages come across to to Alviarin? How did she place new recruits in hearts without having names exposed to the line over which instructions traveled?

[bsmnt23]

I always wondered how the Head of the Black Ajah kept an eye on the Ajah. As nobody knew more than 3 other BA members, how did messages come across to to Alviarin? How did she place new recruits in hearts without having names exposed to the line over which instructions traveled?

 

Some pretty effective skills refered to as "tradecraft" by spies were used to comunicate to BA leadership. A note placed in a specific location for someone else to pick up and deliver somewhere else at a specific time is called a "dead drop". Also codes and "cyphers" were used to further protect the message. Alviarin was complaing at some point that these methods had been in place for centuries but they were a long and cumbersome process. Still, the Heart system, or "cells" as they are called in counterinsurgency opperations are a very effective method way of maintaining secrecy in a situation where if you and your group were compromised it would mitigate the damage to the group as a whole and allow it to continue to opperate. Groups of three seem too small for convienence, the French Maquis used groups of 10 during the German occupation of France in WW2 and other groups have used similar tatcics in other places and times. Placing new recruits into an existing Heart would be no major issue; the new recruit would be the junior member and report to her seinor who would report to her seinor and so on. Draw it out, it would be a map-diagram that would look like a bunch of chickens running out fromt he center which was Alviarian.

[TristanWebb]

Also, Galina said that as a member of the council she knew the names of every black sister.

[Suttree]

Also, Galina said that as a member of the council she knew the names of every black sister.

 

Quote? I thought only the head of the Great Council(Alviarin) knew all the BA sisters...

[Luckers]

Also, Galina said that as a member of the council she knew the names of every black sister.

 

Quote? I thought only the head of the Great Council(Alviarin) knew all the BA sisters...

 

The top three sisters on the Supreme Council knew all the names. Alviarin, Galina and an unnamed third.

[RandA lThor]

Galina new everyone, I thought she didn't know who the head of the council (Alviarin), was?

[Luckers]

Galina new everyone, I thought she didn't know who the head of the council (Alviarin), was?

 

My feeling is that she did. In fact I distinctly remember Alviarin thinking that none but the top three knew who she was.

 

Actually im not wondering if this is what i was thinking of on the names front. Lol.

[RandA lThor]

I thought I remembered Galina sitting in a council and she couldn't see the leader because that person was shrouded.

[fikkie77]

Also, Galina said that as a member of the council she knew the names of every black sister.

 

Quote? I thought only the head of the Great Council(Alviarin) knew all the BA sisters...

 

The top three sisters on the Supreme Council knew all the names. Alviarin, Galina and an unnamed third.

Not Verin, or else her book would have been complete.

I would guess Sheriam.

[csnyder]

Hm, based on such it seems RJ meant for Verin's heart to be clandestine.

It is kind of funny how despite such secrecy a little Compulsion (which would most like be run-of-the-mill) revealed a greater proportion of the Black Ajah.

 

The timing of the WT escape is just too soon despite the secrecy to hide Verin's body and hints that any of those who happened upon/knew about Verin's being in the Tower (at least Turese, Meidani, Laras, and Nicola + "Egwene's supporters") are put to immediate suspicion. I need to reread the post-GS books to see who could have known. What makes Verin particularly suspicious is the fact that she was approached by Mesaana (in the Tower?) at least twice - providing a hint that she was of rather high standing or was on quite an important assignment. Hiding Fera and Elza, and not putting them on the Light's priority is also highly suspect.

 

All being said, I feel as if those in Verin's heart/informant were rather upper echelon BA based on the fact of her proximity of Rand in the entirety of the series. I am a little conflicted with Sheriam's connections with Verin, however, and her reaction at Verin being the revealer matches with a most probable informer-informer/heart member connection. Maybe because of their mutual high standing Sheriam was shocked at Verin's true alliance.

BA placed:

Sheriam as Siuan's Mistress of Novices, Salidar Leader, Egwene's Keeper;

Alviarin as Elaida's Keeper;

Verin placed close among the three boys.

-Marith Jaen as Amyrlin Seat; a blank period with little historical significance.-

Duhara Basaheen served as Keeper to Sierin Vayu - very probably a period in which the BA had much influence/came to power.

(Suspicion; must of had many other Foretellings considering the DR - NS Ch. 8, + the whole Slayer Fiasco, - sending Tigraine to the Waste)Gitara Moroso to Tamra Ospenya.

 

Among the three 'leaders' (AS, Keeper, Mistress of Novices) of the AS association, at least one has been BA recently...This puts Tarna Feir in a suspicious position and may explain her strange ways of acting.)

Sheriam's efficiency in collecting most of the dream ter'angreal reveals how well her managerial skill is. and maybe she incorporated Darker Accepted and Novices in addition to BA to assist in the collection process.

[yoniy0]

Egwene actually does know about a few Blacks who are currently beholden to Rand. Also, Tarna was very clearly forcibly turned to the Shadow, which really puts any theory of her being Black into doubt. And regarding the escape from the Tower -- Egwene let quite a few Blacks escape her purification of the rebel camp. It should come as no surprise that some used the day to warn their fellows in the Tower.

[Luckers]

Here's an unasked question about Verin: Why is there an arrest warrent out for her in Far Madding?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Here's an unasked question about Verin: Why is there an arrest warrent out for her in Far Madding?

 

Tomas forgot to wash his boots when he entered the house, Verin failed to properly chastise him because she was engrossed in some of her research.

[Jaedan_edhel]

Not so much a question, but I was absolutely fascinated when Verin was revealed to be Black Ajah. At first, I thought 'what a cop-out', but when she explained her reasons, it sounded far more likely and I really got into the idea. I've asked serious scholars why they have done something that seems utterly crazy, and the answer has been "because it's the only way to really know" - I've even fallen victim to doing that myself.

I think it makes her so much more interesting that her motives lay not in serving the Dark One, but in understanding those who do. And, to be honest, I have sympathy for her despite the fact that she is one of the 'bad guys'. It's one fantastic way in which WoT avoids being a stereotypical fantasy novel about good vs evil.

[Barid Bel Medar]

And, to be honest, I have sympathy for her despite the fact that she is one of the 'bad guys'. It's one fantastic way in which WoT avoids being a stereotypical fantasy novel about good vs evil.

 

You may want to have a read over that passage again. Verin is one of the GOOD guys. She never intended to serve the Shadow. She did what she did for her research to help out the Light.

 

As Egwene says, she is neither Black nor Brown. Her heart is pure Light. (or something to that effect)

[Edynol]

Did Verin have something to do with Alanna leaving?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Did Verin have something to do with Alanna leaving?

 

Most likely, although we do not know for certain.

 

What we do know is that a letter with a blood-red wax seal was opened and she left shortly after that. (shortly as within a 1-3 days, probably only hours)

[Jaedan_edhel]

And, to be honest, I have sympathy for her despite the fact that she is one of the 'bad guys'. It's one fantastic way in which WoT avoids being a stereotypical fantasy novel about good vs evil.

 

You may want to have a read over that passage again. Verin is one of the GOOD guys. She never intended to serve the Shadow. She did what she did for her research to help out the Light.

 

 

I seriously need to read the WHOLE LOT again :) There are discussions going on in some threads about characters I don't even remember!

However, on Verin, I use quotation marks over 'bad guys' because she can't be written off so easily, but since we don't know what terrible things she might have had to do (maybe even forced to do) to maintain her cover, I would hesitate to call her a 'good guy'. I feel she did what she thought was necessary, and that she believed that she was doing the right thing. I think that Verin's Story would be one of the best untold tales of WoT.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Fair enough then! I still say she is a good guy, but who knows? No definition is correct or incorrect.

[Suttree]

Verin sacrificed more for the light than just about any other charater we have come across. She most certainly is one of the "good guys".