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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

A List of Unanswered Questions/Unresolved Plotlines


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I believe it has been stated by RJ that the drilling of the bore was only about accessing a new power source. No one knew it was actually the DO and the ramifications of it. There was no seduction of Lanfear/Mierin by the DO to do it in other words.

I disagree with your conclusion that there was no seduction. Mierin knew the power source was there. Unless she read about it in an old book, that means she could sense it. She didn't know that it was the TP, true, or what the downside of it could be. But she could tell a power source was there to be tapped, it was powerful, and it was not gender specific. For a control-hungry beldame like Mierin, that was seduction enough.

 

It was kind of like our early nuclear scientists researching radiation but not realizing it would kill them.

 

I never said she wasn't seduced by power in general, that is actually an undisputed fact.

Just that she wasn't seduced or influenced by the DO himself. Your example of nuclear power is as good a comparison as any I guess.

We already know for a fact that every one of the Forsaken have had access to the TP at one time or another.

 

As far as how she got into Rand's dreams, if that is even where that was. The best theory I have seen is that it wasn't his dreams, it was the place where him and Moridin go from time to time and she accessed him there with help, through the bond with Moridin.

Yet the description makes it quite clear that Rand saw this vision in a dream. Rand's dreams are shielded with the OP. If Cyndane could touch the TP, she could get past the OP shield. For that matter, since Moridin himself is a TP user, the TP could be the means by which Moridin also can encounter Rand during OP-shielded dreams.

 

It complies with Moridin's comments to Graendal that the task of getting to Rand has been given to another.

And since it's highly doubtful Mordy would entrust that to someone not completely under his control, that counts Demandred out leaving only the Mindtrapped Cyndane and Moggy. Cydane being. to me, by far the better choice. Doesn't strike me as task Moggy would be very suited for, far too direct IMO.

You're forgetting that it wasn't Moridin who made the announcement to Graendal. It was Shaidar Haran.

 

True enough but either way, sending Cyndane is quite easily the best choice.

 

We already knew Cyndane was Mierin/Lanfear, and Rand recognized her as Mierin. I suppose the claim she made about reaching out to Rand in secret could have been a lie, but Moridin has much easier ways to take Rand down than by "tempting" him with a woman he despises.

 

It doesn't matter if he despises her, it's about exploiting his nature, that being how he tries to save people, especially women.

In this case, a woman he knows very well and one that he knows wasn't always "evil".

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Will this really be the Last "last battle"? Or will it only be the current "last battle" in the current turn of the wheel, doomed to be repeated countless future times in the endless recycling of the Ages?

 

Will the Wheel of Time stop turning and recycling the Ages? Will the future proceed forward in a straight line to an unknowable end, like time does in our universe?

 

It is the current "last battle" for this age. RJ has quotes about it and Herid Fel spelled it out clearly in text.

 

Robert Jordan

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

 

Per RJ there is nothing that makes this age any different.

 

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

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Will this really be the Last "last battle"? Or will it only be the current "last battle" in the current turn of the wheel, doomed to be repeated countless future times in the endless recycling of the Ages?

 

Will the Wheel of Time stop turning and recycling the Ages? Will the future proceed forward in a straight line to an unknowable end, like time does in our universe?

 

It is the current "last battle" for this age. RJ has quotes about it and Herid Fel spelled it out clearly in text.

 

Robert Jordan

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

 

Per RJ there is nothing that makes this age any different.

 

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

 

 

I think you have to read between the lines a bit on that answer though as Fain is unique to this particular age.

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Every age is repeated but not the exact same way, there can be many different weavings to get the same result. Fain being unique to this age doesn't make the age unique just woven differently for the same result. A blanket can be woven with different colored threads but you still get a blanket and if you do everything to the same proportions you essentially get the same blanket.

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Will this really be the Last "last battle"? Or will it only be the current "last battle" in the current turn of the wheel, doomed to be repeated countless future times in the endless recycling of the Ages?

 

Will the Wheel of Time stop turning and recycling the Ages? Will the future proceed forward in a straight line to an unknowable end, like time does in our universe?

 

It is the current "last battle" for this age. RJ has quotes about it and Herid Fel spelled it out clearly in text.

 

Robert Jordan

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

 

Per RJ there is nothing that makes this age any different.

 

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

 

 

I think you have to read between the lines a bit on that answer though as Fain is unique to this particular age.

 

I understand that, but are you insinuating that Fain will do something to actually make this the "last battle" and not just one for this age? I have never even remotely subscribed to that train of thought.

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Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

 

I think you have to read between the lines a bit on that answer though as Fain is unique to this particular age.

 

I understand that, but are you insinuating that Fain will do something to actually make this the "last battle" and not just one for this age? I have never even remotely subscribed to that train of thought.

I do recall reading that RJ said Fain is a wildcard, something unique to this age that the Wheel had never spun out before. That would seem to be a contradiction to his statement that nothing is different.

 

Couple that with Moridin's desire to put an end to the endless recycling, in one way or another. Yes, this age as it began was the same as before. But the potential outcome is quite different. This could very well be the end of the wheel's turnings.

 

We'll all find out in about 7 months.

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2. Who sent the pretend Aiel to attack that one Aes Sedai from the Salidar embassy? Thinking about it and what happened after, I suppose it could've been Verin trying to sabotage the meeting with Rand, which she did later by encouraging them to confront him. I'm sure she knew exactly what the result would be. It would be nice to know for sure though.

 

Wasn't this Fain?

 

Yet the description makes it quite clear that Rand saw this vision in a dream. Rand's dreams are shielded with the OP. If Cyndane could touch the TP, she could get past the OP shield. For that matter, since Moridin himself is a TP user, the TP could be the means by which Moridin also can encounter Rand during OP-shielded dreams.

 

Wait where did you get that? Who says the TP can break thru a shield? Even the dream walkers can't enter Rand's dreams, and they don't use the power at all to do it. The shield shields TP as well as the OP and Whatever Dreamwalkers use. Lanfear said she could break it, but it would be painful to him.

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I second Merilille and Talaan.

Will the Damane be freed?

If freed, when will happen to Elaida, Liandrin and Sevanna?

What did Loial do to the oak the Green Man grew when he died.

Will the Ways be cleansed or remade?

Who will inhabit Rhuidean?

Will anyone remember that Perrin also killed Whitecloaks when he freed Gaul?

What will happen to Rhuidean seems like a HUGE ONE that people never talk about. The city was built by the Jenna Aiel due to Aes Sedai prophecy. I would think it would be the new capital of the new age. The place was built full of palaces - that have never been used. I keep expecting the Dragon Reborn to make it is headquarters or at least move the Black Tower out there. Maybe after it is cleaned of Dark Friends?

 

I thought the song thing had been answered a long ago - people over thought that point - that was just for growing amazing crops during the Age of Legends; when Aiel and Ogre worked together with the Nym. To find the song could be a way to heal the damage to the age if Rand knows hot to make new Nym and can get the others to bring back the song and strengthen creation, but not fix the bore?

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Will this really be the Last "last battle"? Or will it only be the current "last battle" in the current turn of the wheel, doomed to be repeated countless future times in the endless recycling of the Ages?

 

Will the Wheel of Time stop turning and recycling the Ages? Will the future proceed forward in a straight line to an unknowable end, like time does in our universe?

 

It is the current "last battle" for this age. RJ has quotes about it and Herid Fel spelled it out clearly in text.

 

Robert Jordan

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

 

Per RJ there is nothing that makes this age any different.

 

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

 

 

I think you have to read between the lines a bit on that answer though as Fain is unique to this particular age.

I half expect the big Epic change. The Dark One wins and then is killed by the Dragon. By winning I mean he destroys the Wheel of Time and ends the constant cycle and time becomes linier. The Dark One thinks he can remake reality in his image, but is defeated by the Dragon who ties the destruction of the Wheel to the Dark One and both end. Thus creating the final age that becomes our reality. The One Power is no more and science takes over and life gets boring and mundane. I hope that does not happen, but it is the obvious Epic end. No more Aes Sedai or other channelers. Sort of a Happy Ending.

Clearly we have to find out what purpose Fain is to the story. I do expect he will hurt the Dark One somehow.

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Will this really be the Last "last battle"? Or will it only be the current "last battle" in the current turn of the wheel, doomed to be repeated countless future times in the endless recycling of the Ages?

 

Will the Wheel of Time stop turning and recycling the Ages? Will the future proceed forward in a straight line to an unknowable end, like time does in our universe?

 

It is the current "last battle" for this age. RJ has quotes about it and Herid Fel spelled it out clearly in text.

 

Robert Jordan

Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a make-shift manner. But following this line the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless of course, the Dark One breaks free in which case all bets are off, kick over the table and run for the window.

 

Per RJ there is nothing that makes this age any different.

 

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

 

 

I think you have to read between the lines a bit on that answer though as Fain is unique to this particular age.

 

I understand that, but are you insinuating that Fain will do something to actually make this the "last battle" and not just one for this age? I have never even remotely subscribed to that train of thought.

 

No, I am just pointing out that Fain is unique to this age and no other. That the quote you presented from RJ is about the turnings as a whole being the same but each of the seven ages can vary greatly from each other. Just like some ages have Wolf Brothers and some don't or how some ages have channeling while others do not.

Personally, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that Rand needs to destroy the DO's prison completely, not just the seals to then make it "whole" again as per Herid Fel's research and Egwene's dream early in ToM.

He will then need a way to keep the DO at bay while he rebuilds the prison. This is where Fain or more likely imo, his Dagger (I still firmly believe Perin will kill Fain in a supreme act of poetic justice, leaving only the Dagger) comes into play. Nail Shadar Haran with it, thereby "infecting" the DO directly, giving Rand the pause/distraction he needs.

 

Either way, I think we can all agree at this point that Fain/the unique evil of SL is crucial in some way to whatever Rand is going to accomplish.

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I keep expecting the Dragon Reborn to make it is headquarters or at least move the Black Tower out there. Maybe after it is cleaned of Dark Friends?

 

Logain will be leading the BT post TG and there's the foundation of Elaida's palace right next to the WT ready for them to make use of. The guardians balance the servants and all that.

 

but ive said it before and ill say it again, im not buying that he has that dagger on him till i read it, the one on the cover is as far from the description as possible,

 

I really would not use that to make a decision. Cover art work is rarely reliable for that sort of thing.

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Why was the Waygate in Camelyn not closed? Rand and Co used it back in book 1 i believe to go to Fal Dara. He then sent out Lolial with the intent of closing all Waygates known. Why was this one not included. It seems like this would have been high on the list.

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Why was the Waygate in Camelyn not closed? Rand and Co used it back in book 1 i believe to go to Fal Dara. He then sent out Lolial with the intent of closing all Waygates known. Why was this one not included. It seems like this would have been high on the list.

 

He set guards on it. So something must have happened to them.

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Why was the Waygate in Camelyn not closed? Rand and Co used it back in book 1 i believe to go to Fal Dara. He then sent out Lolial with the intent of closing all Waygates known. Why was this one not included. It seems like this would have been high on the list.

 

He set guards on it. So something must have happened to them.

 

Indeed, some people think Moridin tampered with it somehow. IIRC Rand did that one himself.

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Why was the Waygate in Camelyn not closed? Rand and Co used it back in book 1 i believe to go to Fal Dara. He then sent out Lolial with the intent of closing all Waygates known. Why was this one not included. It seems like this would have been high on the list.

 

He set guards on it. So something must have happened to them.

 

Indeed, some people think Moridin tampered with it somehow. IIRC Rand did that one himself.

 

That really worked out well for Rand. Bet he is glad he didnt just remove the leaves like all the others. What if Rand knew this was going to happen, and let it for some reason?

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2. Who sent the pretend Aiel to attack that one Aes Sedai from the Salidar embassy? Thinking about it and what happened after, I suppose it could've been Verin trying to sabotage the meeting with Rand, which she did later by encouraging them to confront him. I'm sure she knew exactly what the result would be. It would be nice to know for sure though.

 

Wasn't this Fain?

 

 

Fain isn't outside the realm of possibility. One of the "Aiel" does refer to the Aes Sedai as "Witches," indicating it could've been a Whitecloak in disguise, but what would he gain by it? It just doesn't seem like something Fain would do. He's all about striking Rand directly like with the Whitecloak assassin ambush earlier in the same book.

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What happened to the fat man angreal that Rand had taken when he was captured in LoC? (Aes Sedai souvenir?)

 

THIS has bugged me since I first read it. In fact, I asked DM forum readers if there were any clues I missed in the "Ask a simple question" thread. I hope it has a resolution.

I believe this Angreal was lost during the attack on Cairhien by the rogue Asha'man. So I guess the most logical answer is: Taim has it.
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What happened to the fat man angreal that Rand had taken when he was captured in LoC? (Aes Sedai souvenir?)

 

THIS has bugged me since I first read it. In fact, I asked DM forum readers if there were any clues I missed in the "Ask a simple question" thread. I hope it has a resolution.

I believe this Angreal was lost during the attack on Cairhien by the rogue Asha'man. So I guess the most logical answer is: Taim has it.

 

Rand lost it during his imprisonment by Galina and the WT embassy. And Rand searched for it after being rescued; but didn't find it. Taim could have found it after the rescue at Dumai Wells and hidden it. But that would not be connected to the Cairhien assassination attempt.

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I keep expecting the Dragon Reborn to make it is headquarters or at least move the Black Tower out there. Maybe after it is cleaned of Dark Friends?

 

Logain will be leading the BT post TG and there's the foundation of Elaida's palace right next to the WT ready for them to make use of. The guardians balance the servants and all that.

 

but ive said it before and ill say it again, im not buying that he has that dagger on him till i read it, the one on the cover is as far from the description as possible,

 

I really would not use that to make a decision. Cover art work is rarely reliable for that sort of thing.

 

that is something that i take very much in to consideration for sure, but i feel as though that particular cover has more accuracies than any others, spot of blood on rands shirt, nyn's head thingy, and the consistencies from drafts to sketches are good, such as rand's hand always hiding the stump, the dagger always being shown, i feel like this cover probably had more insight from team jordan than others and continuity from them probably would have demanded the terangreal be more accurately portrayed than it is in this cover. i know full well that i could be wrong but its not something i feel anyone should have any level of certainty about either. especially considering rand shows no concern over the shadows forces knowing where he is. Its a rafo thing for sure, and i dont mind being wrong when the bulk of things here is speculation, but thats my theory on it.

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Non-Book-Specific Unresolved Plotlines:

 

What will be the fate of the Tuatha'an?/The rediscovery of the Song.

 

I don't think there is "a" song. I'm pretty sure this is just a tradition linking back to when the Aiel sang the seed songs with the Nym and Ogier during the AOL. You see this during Rand's trip to Rhuidean. During the breaking the Aiel lamented the loss of the singing and so on. Some splintered off and became the modern warrior Aiel, some stayed faithful to the Way AND to the Aes Sedai and were the Jenn Aiel, some stayed faithful to the Way but abandoned their service to the Aes Sedai, became the Lost Ones and eventually the Tinkers, after thousands of years of wandering and mixing. Now they remember looking for the song and how wondrous singing was, but not the truth of what it all meant. Perhaps they could use the Ter'angreal from Rhuidean to learn the seed songs, but unless Sameshta is still alive, or Loial managed to "grow" another Nym, I think the seed songs are finished.

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Non-Book-Specific Unresolved Plotlines:

 

What will be the fate of the Tuatha'an?/The rediscovery of the Song.

 

I don't think there is "a" song. I'm pretty sure this is just a tradition linking back to when the Aiel sang the seed songs with the Nym and Ogier during the AOL. You see this during Rand's trip to Rhuidean. During the breaking the Aiel lamented the loss of the singing and so on. Some splintered off and became the modern warrior Aiel, some stayed faithful to the Way AND to the Aes Sedai and were the Jenn Aiel, some stayed faithful to the Way but abandoned their service to the Aes Sedai, became the Lost Ones and eventually the Tinkers, after thousands of years of wandering and mixing. Now they remember looking for the song and how wondrous singing was, but not the truth of what it all meant. Perhaps they could use the Ter'angreal from Rhuidean to learn the seed songs, but unless Sameshta is still alive, or Loial managed to "grow" another Nym, I think the seed songs are finished.

Nym were constructs, so it would take the power to make another, which should be possible post wars and what not (Once people start researching again)

 

 

Know what else bothers me? How many times they mention flying with the power and no one does it. I know it's minor, but damn I would like them to clear that up!

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Non-Book-Specific Unresolved Plotlines:

 

What will be the fate of the Tuatha'an?/The rediscovery of the Song.

 

I don't think there is "a" song. I'm pretty sure this is just a tradition linking back to when the Aiel sang the seed songs with the Nym and Ogier during the AOL. You see this during Rand's trip to Rhuidean. During the breaking the Aiel lamented the loss of the singing and so on. Some splintered off and became the modern warrior Aiel, some stayed faithful to the Way AND to the Aes Sedai and were the Jenn Aiel, some stayed faithful to the Way but abandoned their service to the Aes Sedai, became the Lost Ones and eventually the Tinkers, after thousands of years of wandering and mixing. Now they remember looking for the song and how wondrous singing was, but not the truth of what it all meant. Perhaps they could use the Ter'angreal from Rhuidean to learn the seed songs, but unless Sameshta is still alive, or Loial managed to "grow" another Nym, I think the seed songs are finished.

Nym were constructs, so it would take the power to make another, which should be possible post wars and what not (Once people start researching again)

 

 

Know what else bothers me? How many times they mention flying with the power and no one does it. I know it's minor, but damn I would like them to clear that up!

 

Maybe they never did fly with the power? I never saw it mentioned in any AOL scenes or by any AOL characters. I'm thinking the flight legend comes from the technology possessed during the AOL, but since the current people are so primitive that such technology is unfathomable, the legend of flight is automatically attributed to the OP. Why would they have bothered inventing OP flight when they had jo-cars and what not? Plus, as we have seen, the AOL AS didn't know EVERYTHING there was to know about the OP (if they did, they wouldn't have been so big on research). Hell, Nynaeve has already come up with things that were "impossible" even in the AOL, and the common warder bond was unknown to the AOL Aes Sedai.

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What happened to the fat man angreal that Rand had taken when he was captured in LoC? (Aes Sedai souvenir?)

 

THIS has bugged me since I first read it. In fact, I asked DM forum readers if there were any clues I missed in the "Ask a simple question" thread. I hope it has a resolution.

I believe this Angreal was lost during the attack on Cairhien by the rogue Asha'man. So I guess the most logical answer is: Taim has it.

 

Rand lost it during his imprisonment by Galina and the WT embassy. And Rand searched for it after being rescued; but didn't find it. Taim could have found it after the rescue at Dumai Wells and hidden it. But that would not be connected to the Cairhien assassination attempt.

Ahhh yes, you're absolutely right. I recall Rand searched all the wagons in the aftermath of Dumai's Wells looking for it. I also recall wondering if Taim had it, since it's possible that he or another Asha'man could've found it during the fight. I guess I just invented another reason as to why Taim might have it :).

 

Thanks for the correction.

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What happened to the fat man angreal that Rand had taken when he was captured in LoC? (Aes Sedai souvenir?)

 

THIS has bugged me since I first read it. In fact, I asked DM forum readers if there were any clues I missed in the "Ask a simple question" thread. I hope it has a resolution.

I believe this Angreal was lost during the attack on Cairhien by the rogue Asha'man. So I guess the most logical answer is: Taim has it.

 

Rand lost it during his imprisonment by Galina and the WT embassy. And Rand searched for it after being rescued; but didn't find it. Taim could have found it after the rescue at Dumai Wells and hidden it. But that would not be connected to the Cairhien assassination attempt.

Ahhh yes, you're absolutely right. I recall Rand searched all the wagons in the aftermath of Dumai's Wells looking for it. I also recall wondering if Taim had it, since it's possible that he or another Asha'man could've found it during the fight. I guess I just invented another reason as to why Taim might have it :).

 

Thanks for the correction.

 

After Rand finished looking for the little he looked at Taim who was looking at one of his cronies. The Ashaman was shaking his head and looked upset, which I always took for he was unable to find the little man either. I do not think taim has it. Maybe Logain. Where was he during all this? Was he still with the wonder girls in Salidar or had he got loose yet?

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What happened to the fat man angreal that Rand had taken when he was captured in LoC? (Aes Sedai souvenir?)

 

THIS has bugged me since I first read it. In fact, I asked DM forum readers if there were any clues I missed in the "Ask a simple question" thread. I hope it has a resolution.

I believe this Angreal was lost during the attack on Cairhien by the rogue Asha'man. So I guess the most logical answer is: Taim has it.

 

Rand lost it during his imprisonment by Galina and the WT embassy. And Rand searched for it after being rescued; but didn't find it. Taim could have found it after the rescue at Dumai Wells and hidden it. But that would not be connected to the Cairhien assassination attempt.

Ahhh yes, you're absolutely right. I recall Rand searched all the wagons in the aftermath of Dumai's Wells looking for it. I also recall wondering if Taim had it, since it's possible that he or another Asha'man could've found it during the fight. I guess I just invented another reason as to why Taim might have it :).

 

Thanks for the correction.

 

After Rand finished looking for the little he looked at Taim who was looking at one of his cronies. The Ashaman was shaking his head and looked upset, which I always took for he was unable to find the little man either. I do not think taim has it. Maybe Logain. Where was he during all this? Was he still with the wonder girls in Salidar or had he got loose yet?

 

I think Logain was still in Salidar. Egwene let him go well after the end of LoC.

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