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Was Jaret Byar a Darkfriend?


Dagon Thyne
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Is it possible that Jeret Byar was a Darkfriend? He always seemed to be a little too dark to be to be a follower of the light.

 

Some people I've talked to say that the fact that he found the Hand of the Light hanging children on Almoth Plain to wrong means he can't be a darkfriend, but I feel that even a darkfriend could find murdering children to be wrong.

 

Lets look at everything he's done....

 

1; He lied to Dain Bornhold about how his father died, blaming it on Perrin.

 

2; He tried to get Perrin and Egwene to escape custody in EOTW, so he could kill them.

 

3; He tries to kill Perrin in TOM, but is stopped by Dain Bornhold.

 

 

To me, he just seems to be a darkfriend......and if he is not....He is very very evil for a follower of the light.

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Is it possible that Jeret Byar was a Darkfriend? He always seemed to be a little too dark to be to be a follower of the light.

 

Some people I've talked to say that the fact that he found the Hand of the Light hanging children on Almoth Plain to wrong means he can't be a darkfriend, but I feel that even a darkfriend could find murdering children to be wrong.

 

Lets look at everything he's done....

 

1; He lied to Dain Bornhold about how his father died, blaming it on Perrin.

 

2; He tried to get Perrin and Egwene to escape custody in EOTW, so he could kill them.

 

3; He tries to kill Perrin in TOM, but is stopped by Dain Bornhold.

 

 

To me, he just seems to be a darkfriend......and if he is not....He is very very evil for a follower of the light.

 

that stuff just points more to him being an insane fanatic to me.

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I think it's pretty obvious that he was influenced as in compulsed by Graendal.

He was her final weapon mentioned in ToM chptr 38 which she then says also failed in the epilogue.

 

Not saying that Byar wasn't a nutjob/zealot previous to being compulsed but Graendal multiplied that behavior.

He was already a bit unhinged, made worse by his fathers death and then Graendal took it even further.

 

Was he a DF, I don't think so. Just a nutjob.

Edited by Finnssss
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No, Byar wasn't a Darkfriend. Was he compulsed by Graendal? Absolutely not, such a thing is impossible. Was he compelled by Graendal? Perhaps, there is evidence supporting that, but the problem I have with that is she just compelled him to act exactly as if he wasn't compelled. I know she's a master of subtle compulsion, but I think this is perhaps so subtle as to appear non-existant, making the claim that it was there unsatisfying. After all, if he would act the same regardless of the compulsion, why add it?

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I think Byar hated Perrin the moment, Perrin killed two of his comrades in tEotW, which to be honest is a pretty good reason as Perrin was a bit out of order there.

There is no doubt he was a fanatic which is even acknowledged by the leader of the WC's at the start of the DR.

That he was nudged by Graendal to fuel his already in grown hatred and zealotry to push him over the edge and try to murder Perrin if all else failed is very possible and does seem to fit in with the last weapon remark.

For all that I don't think he was a DF.

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No, Byar wasn't a Darkfriend. Was he compulsed by Graendal? Absolutely not, such a thing is impossible. Was he compelled by Graendal? Perhaps, there is evidence supporting that, but the problem I have with that is she just compelled him to act exactly as if he wasn't compelled. I know she's a master of subtle compulsion, but I think this is perhaps so subtle as to appear non-existant, making the claim that it was there unsatisfying. After all, if he would act the same regardless of the compulsion, why add it?

 

 

Then explain what last tool she was referring to. This same last tool that we find out had failed in her next PoV.

The only thing that had failed was Byar's attempt on Perrin's life.

 

This is her exact quotes...

ToM chptr 38:

"She still had one tool left to her, one she had positioned so very carefully. One she had prepared for a moment such as this."

ToM epilogue:

"That fool Isam, Graendal thought, stuffing the papers in her pack. And that idiot Whitecloak!"

 

About seals it, no?

Edited by Finnssss
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No, Byar wasn't a Darkfriend. Was he compulsed by Graendal? Absolutely not, such a thing is impossible. Was he compelled by Graendal? Perhaps, there is evidence supporting that, but the problem I have with that is she just compelled him to act exactly as if he wasn't compelled. I know she's a master of subtle compulsion, but I think this is perhaps so subtle as to appear non-existant, making the claim that it was there unsatisfying. After all, if he would act the same regardless of the compulsion, why add it?

 

 

Then explain what last tool she was referring to. This same last tool that we find out had failed in her next PoV.

The only thing that had failed was Byar's attempt on Perrin's life.

 

This is her exact quotes...

ToM chptr 38:

"She still had one tool left to her, one she had positioned so very carefully. One she had prepared for a moment such as this."

ToM epilogue:

"That fool Isam, Graendal thought, stuffing the papers in her pack. And that idiot Whitecloak!"

 

About seals it, no?

Agreed, we are basically hit over the head with that one. :biggrin: I think it was a little silly to have Grendal's assassin be someone that usually wouldn't have a change in hell of getting close to Perrin. It would have worked with just Byar hating Perrin but I guess it was to show Grendal's level of planning and it didn't detract from the story so. .. :rolleyes:

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The real mystery about that scene is, how does Graendal know Perrin will be there at all? She instructs Isam to attack the Whitecloaks after Perrin has busted the Spike and left the area.

 

Graendal's trap was to attack the two armies together; but Perrin saw the potential ambush and placed his army at a superior tactical position to foil the ambush, and save Galad and the whitecloaks.

 

As to whether Byar was a darkfriend or not, I would assume that Graendal's attentions would not be directed at anything less than a DF. I don't think she would recruit or use a "non-DF." If Byar wasn't a DF before meeting Graendal, he certainly saw "the light" after meeting her.

 

But the whole plan smelled of desperation on Graendal's part. She was never strong enough to take the initiative (except with sensual pleasure). First she followed Sammael, then went over to Demandred, and finally was taking orders from Na'eblis Moridin.

 

One thing I wonder about her whether she was killed like Asmodean or whether her mind trap now hangs on Moridin's neck next to Lanfear's and Moghedien's.

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Read the relevant Graendal PoV again.

She knows Perrin has escaped - his army has left the area via Gates - she has spies in both the Whitecloak camp as well as Isam himself and quite possibly DFs in Perrin's own lot. You cannot conceal the disappearance of 100,000 odd people.

Yet, she attacks while thinking (Byar) is her last ace in the hole and might kill Perrin during the heat of battle.

How does she know Perrin will even come back for the battle?

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i think that Graendal is still very adept at reading people.

 

DFs in perrin's camp (black ajah anyone??) and also information on perrin character, might have helped her get a good portrait of perrin's character.

 

i think she placed Byar in the eventuality of whether the two army attacking each other and therefore him getting a good shot at perrin or joining forces and again him having a good shot at perrin. she knew from DFs that perrin would not leave anyone to the Shadowspawn.

 

she was a mastermind manipulator, even Rand acknowledged that, he says she plans for each eventuality, plans 2-3 steps ahead,etc

Edited by GB
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i think that Graendal is still very adept at reading people.

 

DFs in perrin's camp (black ajah anyone??) and also information on perrin character, might have helped her get a good portrait of perrin's character.

 

i think she placed Byar in the eventuality of whether the two army attacking each other and therefore him getting a good shot at perrin or joining forces and again him having a good shot at perrin. she knew from DFs that perrin would not leave anyone to the Shadowspawn.

 

she was a mastermind manipulator, even Rand acknowledged that, he says she plans for each eventuality, plans 2-3 steps ahead,etc

 

Perrin's inner circle was not infiltrated. He saw that he has been steadily pushed into a certain direction; and he saw the trap coming. The fight (which didn't materialize) between Perrin and the WC's (very fitting abbreviation) deprived Graendal of weakening both armies. But both were still marching into her trap at full strength. The trap was to weaken both armies. Byar was to kill Perrin.

 

In any case, she failed miserably.

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No, Byar wasn't a Darkfriend. Was he compulsed by Graendal? Absolutely not, such a thing is impossible. Was he compelled by Graendal? Perhaps, there is evidence supporting that, but the problem I have with that is she just compelled him to act exactly as if he wasn't compelled. I know she's a master of subtle compulsion, but I think this is perhaps so subtle as to appear non-existant, making the claim that it was there unsatisfying. After all, if he would act the same regardless of the compulsion, why add it?

 

Then explain what last tool she was referring to. This same last tool that we find out had failed in her next PoV.

The only thing that had failed was Byar's attempt on Perrin's life.

 

This is her exact quotes...

ToM chptr 38:

"She still had one tool left to her, one she had positioned so very carefully. One she had prepared for a moment such as this."

ToM epilogue:

"That fool Isam, Graendal thought, stuffing the papers in her pack. And that idiot Whitecloak!"

 

About seals it, no?

You do realise you didn't actually address my point? I said it was unsatisfying for Graendal to compel Byar, because if she did so it made him act exactly the same as if she hadn't done anything at all. I don't know why you bothered bringing up the evidence I already admitted existed as if it in some way combats the point I made. That Graendal might have compelled Byar (though she did not compulse him, as that's not a thing) is a perfectly valid reading of the available evidence - it is simply that I consider such a thing to be pointless, adding nothing to the story. Take away Graendal's compulsion of Byar, nothing changes. Of course, Byar being compelled (and I will point it out once more for anyone still struggling - the word is compelled, not compulsed) isn't necessarily the correct readng of the evidence - it could be that he merely spoilt her plan, and her last tool is still in play and unused - but that is beside the point I made that you responded to.

 

 

The real mystery about that scene is, how does Graendal know Perrin will be there at all? She instructs Isam to attack the Whitecloaks after Perrin has busted the Spike and left the area.

 

Graendal's trap was to attack the two armies together; but Perrin saw the potential ambush and placed his army at a superior tactical position to foil the ambush, and save Galad and the whitecloaks.

 

As to whether Byar was a darkfriend or not, I would assume that Graendal's attentions would not be directed at anything less than a DF. I don't think she would recruit or use a "non-DF." If Byar wasn't a DF before meeting Graendal, he certainly saw "the light" after meeting her.

She did make use of non-Darkfriends. She made use of Ituralde, for one thing. Unless you want to claim he is a Darkfriend this point doesn't have a leg to stand on.
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No, Byar wasn't a Darkfriend. Was he compulsed by Graendal? Absolutely not, such a thing is impossible. Was he compelled by Graendal? Perhaps, there is evidence supporting that, but the problem I have with that is she just compelled him to act exactly as if he wasn't compelled. I know she's a master of subtle compulsion, but I think this is perhaps so subtle as to appear non-existant, making the claim that it was there unsatisfying. After all, if he would act the same regardless of the compulsion, why add it?

 

Then explain what last tool she was referring to. This same last tool that we find out had failed in her next PoV.

The only thing that had failed was Byar's attempt on Perrin's life.

 

This is her exact quotes...

ToM chptr 38:

"She still had one tool left to her, one she had positioned so very carefully. One she had prepared for a moment such as this."

ToM epilogue:

"That fool Isam, Graendal thought, stuffing the papers in her pack. And that idiot Whitecloak!"

 

About seals it, no?

You do realise you didn't actually address my point? I said it was unsatisfying for Graendal to compel Byar, because if she did so it made him act exactly the same as if she hadn't done anything at all. I don't know why you bothered bringing up the evidence I already admitted existed as if it in some way combats the point I made. That Graendal might have compelled Byar (though she did not compulse him, as that's not a thing) is a perfectly valid reading of the available evidence - it is simply that I consider such a thing to be pointless, adding nothing to the story. Take away Graendal's compulsion of Byar, nothing changes. Of course, Byar being compelled (and I will point it out once more for anyone still struggling - the word is compelled, not compulsed) isn't necessarily the correct readng of the evidence - it could be that he merely spoilt her plan, and her last tool is still in play and unused - but that is beside the point I made that you responded to.

 

 

The real mystery about that scene is, how does Graendal know Perrin will be there at all? She instructs Isam to attack the Whitecloaks after Perrin has busted the Spike and left the area.

 

Graendal's trap was to attack the two armies together; but Perrin saw the potential ambush and placed his army at a superior tactical position to foil the ambush, and save Galad and the whitecloaks.

 

As to whether Byar was a darkfriend or not, I would assume that Graendal's attentions would not be directed at anything less than a DF. I don't think she would recruit or use a "non-DF." If Byar wasn't a DF before meeting Graendal, he certainly saw "the light" after meeting her.

She did make use of non-Darkfriends. She made use of Ituralde, for one thing. Unless you want to claim he is a Darkfriend this point doesn't have a leg to stand on.

 

No one will ever be able to convince me that Graendal does not use some of her "pets" as spies and such, without them having to be Darkfriends.

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I do not believe AT ALL that Byar was a Darkfriend. Whether or not Graendal used him is questionable, but even if she did, that doesn't necessarily make him a DF. She very well may have set him up to cause all sorts of trouble.

 

But he wasn't a DF, at least I don't think so.

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I do not believe AT ALL that Byar was a Darkfriend. Whether or not Graendal used him is questionable, but even if she did, that doesn't necessarily make him a DF. She very well may have set him up to cause all sorts of trouble.

 

But he wasn't a DF, at least I don't think so.

 

 

I agree with you. When she says "That fool whitecloak!", she could easily be referring to Galad, for having maneuvering him into position, but thinking it foolish that they didn't end in battle. It is not conclusive that it is referring to Byar, although suggestive.

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I do not believe AT ALL that Byar was a Darkfriend. Whether or not Graendal used him is questionable, but even if she did, that doesn't necessarily make him a DF. She very well may have set him up to cause all sorts of trouble.

 

But he wasn't a DF, at least I don't think so.

 

 

I agree with you. When she says "That fool whitecloak!", she could easily be referring to Galad, for having maneuvering him into position, but thinking it foolish that they didn't end in battle. It is not conclusive that it is referring to Byar, although suggestive.

 

 

The context it comes in though, she is blaming her other tool Isam for his failure in the same sentence.

Previously, she had referred to Isam as a tool that failed but she still had another tool that she had placed so carefully.

She is now about to flee away from the DO himself if she can so that other tool has obviously also failed and is no longer available.

 

Process of elimination.

Who could be the only carefully placed tool who is no longer available to Graendal?

Byar.

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Jaret Byar, not a darkfriend.

 

Jaret Byar, a big douche who already has a bias against the wolfish wah-wah(Perrin), spends a significant amount of time in the company of Fain - Who we know has an infectious personality, so to speak.

 

At the same time, it's not hard at all to believe Grendal was also yanking Byar's chain. We've got her viewpoint, taken in context as noted by Finnssss, and we know this sort of thing isn't exactly buried deep in the Forsaken playbook.

 

What happens with Byar is akin to what happens with Masema. Neither are darkfriends but both have enough zealotry, and inherent loony-toon-ness, that they can be led by the nose with something as simple as "Look at me, I'm shiney, do as I say"

 

... :bela:

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What was the point of having Graendal compulse him? His actions seem to have been very much in line with what one would have expected from him without that. It seems like needless busywork to add a compulsion in and have the entire series worth of buildup of Byar's character suddenly become totally meaningless.

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