Padan Fain - importance in the end

[ballfire23]

this is my first post so please arest me if it is lacking something (spelling, wording or grammers) as a non-native speaker of English)

 

Padan Fain is not often discussed in the forum, i have noticed that he seems to be overlooked and overshadowed by topics about Taim, Demandred, Slayer, Moridin, Lanfear and Seanchan, but Padan Fain is one of the characters who have been longest active in the story-line, he is intriduced at the same time as Thom Merriling and Thom is very important to the story line. I think Fain is a very intriguing character, he gives me serious chills cause he is really grosse and nasty, like a virus in the Randland universe who is neither liked by the light side neither the dark side is very happy/fond about him, he is sort of like the seanchan and the whiteclochs, who are neither dark or light but the shades of grey, or the confusing elements, or outright disturbing parts of WoT, (whitecloc are more confused then disturbed, while Seanchans are more disturbed then confused) Fain is purely disturbing and very litle confused. he is very focused on what he must do, his hate is as sharp as the ruby dagger, his hatred for Rand, his hatred towards Moridin and general hatrad towards everyone, he is just as disturbed as Masema and Jared Byar these three are kinda similar, viruses in the system but Fain is just many times worse and much more intence and dangerous then any other that is not darkfriend. or even more dangerous then them.

 

so what is you opinion about the importance of Fain in the story is he more important then what givven credit for, i beleeve that those who were introduced in the first 4-5 chapters in the first book is kinda important to the end as well. i think Fain is as important as Thom Merrilin or Lan just on a nother antagonistic side of things.

 

what do you think

[trench]

Well my opinion of Fain is that he will be the deciding factor in resealing the bore. I think he will be (or at least his power) what Rand needs to use to touch the Dark One without re-tainting Saidin. The thing I find most frightening about him has nothing to do with the story itself but from what Harriet said about him. I have no idea where the quote is (I just looked couldn't find it)but what she said was that she could always tell when RJ had been writing him because his demeanor changed. Thats a bit frightening IMO.

 

The reason he does not get discussed much anymore, is because he has barely in been in the books lately, before TOM the last we saw of him was in Far Madding during Winters Heart. There is just not much to go on beyond Fain = scary bad.

[Majsju]

Actually, Fain has been discussed quite a bit, if you search through the boards. Granted, not as much as Taim or Demandred, but still.

 

That said, I have long argued that Fains key role will be taking out SH. Granted, that theory took a bit of a beating in TGS, and the following interviews with Brandon, as we learned SH is not quite as powerful as previously believed. But he should still be powerful enough to pose quite a threat to Rand.

There is a bit of foreshadowing to support this, Fains obsession with being the one who kills Rand (meaning he will do anything to stop others from doing it). He also hates the Shadow, so getting the jump on SH would be a double-reward for Fain.

 

I do not buy the idea that Fain would be the buffer, to keep the DO from tainting Saidin again. Keep in mind that this is not a repeat of the AOL, it is a repeat of the 3rd Ages Last battle from the previous turning of the Wheel. Since Fain is unique to this turning, apparently the Dragon has been able to seal the Bore without the DO tainting anything without Fain before.

 

The one scenario where I could see Fain being used in that way is if Rand tried to not only seal the Bore, but also break the Wheel, and thus moving from the ever-repeating 7-Age cycle to linear time. But nothing in the books, or in what RJ has said in interviews support this.

[aross]

I've stated this before, but I will repeat. Fain is this story's Gollum. As a rogue infected by the Dark but serving only himself, he is fated to do something that will tip the scales to the Light.

 

That something will be unintentional, of course. Beyond that, I don't have a clue what that action might be.

[Crowl Rife]

I've stated this before, but I will repeat. Fain is this story's Gollum. As a rogue infected by the Dark but serving only himself, he is fated to do something that will tip the scales to the Light.

 

That something will be unintentional, of course. Beyond that, I don't have a clue what that action might be.

 

This is my thought as well. I don't like how Fain was relegated to cameo duty after TSR, because he seems out of place to me now, randomly swooping in and being scary every other book... I can only hope there was a reason behind that.

[mandersen]

The thing about Fain that's confusing to me is where his power comes from. He's got his own special kind of "magic" from mordeth that can only be explained as the hatred and evil of mankind. but what actually powers it? I've always thought of the OP as something in the nature of the Creator or the pattern. a force of order and life. The TP is the essence of the DO, a force of chaos and destruction. Two great powers that fight each other by their very nature. Mordeth uses neither of these, although the nature of his power certainly resembles that of the DO. I think it's been speculated that Rand succeeds in actually slaying the DO this time around, and that Fain gets sealed outside the pattern and takes his place.

[Pinzarn]

Well my opinion of Fain is that he will be the deciding factor in resealing the bore. I think he will be (or at least his power) what Rand needs to use to touch the Dark One without re-tainting Saidin.

 

My opinion is that Fain will be the "welding rod" that Rand uses to seal the bore. To me, it has been foreshadowed since Rand received the two wounds on his side. The comment that neither are advancing, but fighting each other is what convinced me. The previous seal was incomplete because it would fail. The new "Fain-seal" will prevent the DO from penetrating it.

[Thrasymachus]

Personally, I rather like the notion that Padan Fain becomes the next Dark One. He's certainly giving ol' Shaitan a run for his money when it comes to plain old insane-style evil.

[ballfire23]

i think he is sort of a virus in the system, not fitting in anywhere, like i said Masema and Jared Byar were sort of similar, rabid, mad and filled with deep and obsessive hate, that conusmed their personalitys. it is just that Fain is just the outer spectre of madness and obsession of hate

[Shai-tan]

Fain was not a continuation from something in a past turning of the world, he is something 'new' - confirmed by Robert Jordan.

Thus he won't be used to seal the bore and as some suggest he will not become the 'new darkone'.

[cosmicpanda]

I quite like the inclusion of Fain in the books. If the premise of the Wheel of Time is that what happens, will happen again, then it follows that the Dragon must be able to seal the bore every time it is necessary. This would be predictable.

 

If Fain is unique to this age, he is a spanner in the works, and thus raises the possibility that the Dark One may win. Thus there is some suspense and perhaps even some surprises to come.

[Maleshub]

As mentioned earlier, Fain is WoT's Gollum. There are many similarities ... greed, distrust, madness, imprisoned by the DO/Sauron and made a hound, etc....

 

I think Fain's part in the story is "chaos!" In one chapter, he gives Rand that terrible wound; and in another he kills 2 dark Ashaman. And his ability to "own" Fades is disturbing.

 

He has a vengeance against everyone. And he'll try and wreak havoc on everyone's plans, including the DO's.

 

My assumption (at the time of reading the cleansing of Saiden) was that Fain died the day Shadar Logoth ceased to exist. The source of him "other evil" gone in a battle with the DO's taint. Fain should have dropped dead right on the spot. But we still have him, with an army at his command, to play a role in the last book!

[Yamahako]

I have this funny feeling that Rand will have to die to prevent his being turned to the Shadow (13x13). I think that maybe Alivia and Fain will be instrumental in causing this death.

 

As to what happens after that - Rand taking over Morridin's body with Nyneave's help, or him being brought back from the dead or him being called from the horn - I don't know. But I have this suspicion, that Rand's death will be instrumental in his survival. To live (on as you are - a warrior for the light) you must die.

[FossMaNo1]

Fain was not a continuation from something in a past turning of the world, he is something 'new' - confirmed by Robert Jordan.

LOL... I just had a whole Agent Smith flashback...

[Kelandon]

Fain was not a continuation from something in a past turning of the world, he is something 'new' - confirmed by Robert Jordan.

Thus he won't be used to seal the bore and as some suggest he will not become the 'new darkone'.

If anything, that would be a reason to think that he would become the new DO. The DO stands outside of the Wheel; Fain is something new, outside of the usual turning of the Wheel. Even so, the DO is far more sane than Fain is, and far more inherently powerful. Seems unlikely.

 

I like the idea of Fain playing a role in the sealing in the way that Shadar Logoth played a role int he Cleansing. But I don't quite get how that would work, unless, as was briefly suggested above, he absorbs the DO's attempt at a counterstrike this time. The taint got poured into SL; the DO's new attempt at a taint would get poured into Fain, killing him and saving the One Power. Ehh... maybe. But it just doesn't feel quite right.

[Suttree]

Fain was not a continuation from something in a past turning of the world, he is something 'new' - confirmed by Robert Jordan.

Thus he won't be used to seal the bore and as some suggest he will not become the 'new darkone'.

If anything, that would be a reason to think that he would become the new DO. The DO stands outside of the Wheel; Fain is something new, outside of the usual turning of the Wheel. Even so, the DO is far more sane than Fain is, and far more inherently powerful. Seems unlikely.

 

I like the idea of Fain playing a role in the sealing in the way that Shadar Logoth played a role int he Cleansing. But I don't quite get how that would work, unless, as was briefly suggested above, he absorbs the DO's attempt at a counterstrike this time. The taint got poured into SL; the DO's new attempt at a taint would get poured into Fain, killing him and saving the One Power. Ehh... maybe. But it just doesn't feel quite right.

 

Bit more of an explanation on the taint and SL for for purposes of the discussion.

 

Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting

 

Emma: Can you give some more details on how the taint was cleansed? I was sort of confused reading the book.

RJ: You don't think it's obvious?

Err, let's see. You have.. You're using both repulsion and attraction of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and [attraction] of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh.. as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright? Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand... To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. That will both attract one another and negate one another.

[supersprode]

Jordan often seems to have prior events foreshadow the same thing happening somewhere else on a different scale. For example, Moraine swearing fealty to Rand because she remembered how control Saidar by surrendering to it. Or Elaida's catastrophic attempt to be "hard" mirroring Rand's own attempt, at same time Egwene is getting tortured in the tower. I can't think of good examples off the top of my head.

 

Fain, I think, will be sealed with the dark one. Rand's wounds are not healed, but isolated/sealed together, and the two evils, hopefully, will destroy each other. This, along with cleansing of Saidin, foreshadow Fain being sealed with the dark one, where their evils will consume one another. I don't think he will have any role in sealing beyond that, or that there will be a new dark one; I think he will be the death of the dark one. Min's theory that the Dark One wants to destroy time/pattern/whatever so that he can die also foreshadows that he will die, I think.

 

I think the Dark One will die. I know Jordan's world has some principles like time being a circle and repeating itself is pervasive, that's kind of anticlimactic and pointless, and I expect the end to be very climactic, not a repetition of wind bouncing off stuff for 3000 more years and 2 more generations of writers where the dark one's name is instead the evil peddler and the last battle is prophesized as Death of a Salesman with Mallrats being his new spies or something. Ishmael became a darkfriend because he's a depressed existentialist I guess so I kinda don't think that's the route this series will take, since this was pointed out, no offense to Martin Luther King or whoever, not that he's a darkfriend because that would be racist, and i'm rambling now so end of rant. I editted this post 3 times to be this incoherent so don't be too hard on me. I made an effort.

[Ferdawoon]

Something that I could never understand:

Did RJ say that Fain is unique to this Age, as in a Fain-person appear each 3rd age (assuming Rand-time is the 3rd age) or that he is unique to this age and this turning and that he have never appeared before?

[Maleshub]

 

It was the storm that gave him strength, the purpose that drove him. Al'Thor would die. By his hand. And perhaps after that, the Dark One. Wonderful ...

 

The drops of blood fell alongside spots of darkness that appeared on dead leaves and stems as he moved farther north into the Blight.

 

No matter. Onward. The time had come to kill al'Thor. It saddened him that the hunt must end. But there was no longer a reason for a hunt. You didn't hunt something when you knew exactly where it was going to be. You merely showed up to meet it.

 

Like an old friend. A dear, beloved old friend that you were going to stab through the eye, open up at the gut and consume by handfuls while drinking his blood. That was the proper way to treat friends.

 

 

It was an honor.

 

Would anyone kindly refer me to where I can read up on theories or articles on the above? It seems that Rand will have to go through Fain and his army before/during sealing the bore.

[Suttree]

Something that I could never understand:

Did RJ say that Fain is unique to this Age, as in a Fain-person appear each 3rd age (assuming Rand-time is the 3rd age) or that he is unique to this age and this turning and that he have never appeared before?

 

Basd on the quote it would seem he is unique to this age as in never appeared before...

 

Interview: Dec 9th, 2002

 

 

Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A

Question

Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

Robert Jordan

He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

[Naked~Frog]

I think Fain will be a big factor in the DO dying... he is, afterall, an enemy to both sides. Maybe once Rand dies he will finish the bady off. He can make the DO's troops obey him...

[Pinzarn]

I still like my welding rod analogy.

 

After reading more thoughts and comments, I am more cemented on this theory.

 

Since time is cyclical in WoT (it is a wheel after all), somewhere along the way the DO prison has to be sealed. Once it is sealed, it can then be bored. Once it is bored, it can be patched. Once it is patched, the patch can weaken. Rinse and Repeat.

 

The manner in which it is sealed can change with each turning of the wheel, but somewhere along the way it has to be sealed.

 

I think two things have foreshadowed how it will be handled. First, the wounds in Rand's side was the first foreshadow. The second one was how Rand removed the taint.

 

Also, ever since the scholar guy (I forgot his name) told Rand that the Last Battle won't be fought in the manner that Rand thinks, I think the cleansing of the taint foreshadowed this as well. It was not a physical cleansing, but handled on a different level. This points to that the true LB will be handled on a different level as well.

[Simpleman2012]

Fain is an oddball and something new in the Pattern from the current age. Both the light and dark fears him. He is a product of hate upon the shadow build up for centuries, and because of such extreme hate, it became a power itself that both light and dark cannot shield from.

 

Worse is the Miasma he controls. While Balefire can destroy threads in the Pattern, Miasma may have done worse, as both Moridin and Rand could not even fight the Miasma with balefire while they meet accidently in Shadar Logarth.

 

All bets would be off on prophecies if he was involved in the last battle, as he is a force both light and dark may not had reckoned or taken account, with the Pattern disrupted further than the spaces it has for events that he creates.