Blademaster Worthiness

[Gabriel Kross]

I think one of the last 2 is dead, and the other was Nail who is also dead *i think* not sure if it's ever said straight out

 

the figure in my picture is the new great captain! FOR SPARTAAAAAA!

[cookiecrisp]

Being a blademaster isn't about handicaps and advantages. Short people, people with one hand, etc. don't become welfare blademasters. Being a blademaster is being the best of the best. Even among fodder, there have been no trash blademasters. Apart from Lan's slaughter of Riatin, blademaster v blademaster duels have never been a walk in the park.

 

Being a blademaster means more than being something like an Aiel fighter, Seanchan elite, or even part of the Band of the Red Hand (currently the most well trained army). Wide field battle tactics are different from single combat. If a trained army of 10,000 were to fight 500 blademasters in a single combat situation, I'd assume the 10,000 would be absolutely slaughtered.

 

That said, despite Gawyn definitely being blademaster material for defeating Hammar, his 3+ combat accomplishments don't really count towards that. For example, the bloodknives weren't exactly the best test of a swordsmans' skill. It was a 3v3 with one side using an obvious advantage. If they were to battle in an arena in utter darkness, I think Gawyn and the tower guard would have absolutely crushed the bloodknives. The bloodknives are assassins. They are part of the Fists, they are either 13 year old girls, or people the size of 13 year old girls. With the lights off, Gawyn can positive ravage a bunch of underage girls.

 

Valda v Galad was a more discerning fight. Galad's been talked up the entire series. He finally met his great challenge in Valda. If what Morgase (and the other noblemen of the westlands) believed is true, Valda may have been the greatest well-known swordsman of the time.

 

Basically, blademasters would never "wipe the floor" with other blademasters. Even Raitin's defeat to the greatest swordsman of the Age was offset by his decaying mind. I think no blademaster would have a 100% or even 90% win rate against another blademaster, or even skilled swordsman like Darlin.

 

Also, defeating people who wield anything but a sword isn't exactly a test of blademaster skill. Matt shouldn't be considered a blademaster for this reason. Perhaps his memories do give him the skill of a blademaster, but his primary weapon and mode of combat is definitely not how a swordsman fights. There may be a man who can defeat Couladin, who probably can kill at least 50% of the blademasters introduced, and not be able to beat Darlin in a sword fight.

 

Blademasters however, are not immune to losing to non blademasters. A fight is a fight, and there's a lot more uncertainty to killing someone in battle than beating someone in a martial sport like MMA.

[gloweye]

I think one of the last 2 is dead, and the other was Nail who is also dead *i think* not sure if it's ever said straight out

 

the figure in my picture is the new great captain! FOR SPARTAAAAAA!

 

 

The others are Pedron Nial(dead, by assassin), and Lord Angelmar, whom we have seen very little, and never in battle. same count almost for Bashere as well - he did remarkable little fighting, considering the time he spend with Rand. Bryne also hasn't been able to show his skill to us.

 

Mat appears to me to be the best, due to a experience that may not be his own, but that exceeds that of an entire lifetime. We've not just only seen him as defensive, but he also fought the guerilla against the seanchan when he's with Tuon. not a single battle lost, remarkable few losses overal, and all objectives accomplished.

[Gabriel Kross]

I think one of the last 2 is dead, and the other was Nail who is also dead *i think* not sure if it's ever said straight out

 

the figure in my picture is the new great captain! FOR SPARTAAAAAA!

 

 

The others are Pedron Nial(dead, by assassin), and Lord Angelmar, whom we have seen very little, and never in battle. same count almost for Bashere as well - he did remarkable little fighting, considering the time he spend with Rand. Bryne also hasn't been able to show his skill to us.

 

Mat appears to me to be the best, due to a experience that may not be his own, but that exceeds that of an entire lifetime. We've not just only seen him as defensive, but he also fought the guerilla against the seanchan when he's with Tuon. not a single battle lost, remarkable few losses overal, and all objectives accomplished.

 

I believe Nail dieing moves Mat into the 5 greats rankings

[Bromo Sapien]

With the lights off, Gawyn can positive ravage a bunch of underage girls.

 

Now that you mention it, how young is Egwene?

 

I believe Nail dieing moves Mat into the 5 greats rankings

 

I don't think the Five Great Captains are a changing list that gets updated to incorporate the best living generals. I saw it as an unofficial group of these five select generals given that the title is capitalized and we haven't heard of any other previous generals being listed as Great Captains. While Mat definitely deserves to be ranked with them, he isn't a Great Captain.

 

What has he done except chase Siuan across half the map. He seems more of a defensive guy instead of an offensive guy. Interlude is all about offense. Bashere is more balanced. Who are the other two again?

 

I agree with the first two in terms of their philosophy, but why does that make Ituralde better? The Light side is definitely going to need some defensive help in TG. I don't know about Bashere though. He's been more an advisor to Rand than a true general.

[Jon Paul]

Right.. the man who said he could crack Tar Valon is only a defensive general..

 

Now that you mention it, how young is Egwene?

 

Eighteen I'm sure.

[Bromo Sapien]

Mostly. Rodel defended Maradon and Bryne led Salidar against the Tower, but for the most part, if you were going to characterize their strategies as a whole, Bryne is more defensively-minded and Ituralde is more offensive.

 

And it was a joke. She's actually nineteen, depending on when she was born within the year. That sentence just had PEDOPHILE written all over it.

[Elan Tedronai]

looks like everyone has their own opinions. But sanderson is dumb for calling gawyn lucky. You make your own luck. Anyways sanderson is just a water carrier. I would accept the words lucky from jordan. Not from him.

 

By the way everyone keeps going about the blood knives scene or the sleet duels but my fave gawyn moment is in book 7 prologue

 

Gawyn had no time to watch or listen, though. The only Youngling afoot, he attracted attention. Three

cadin'sor-clad figures dodged through the horsemen, rushing at him with spears ready. Perhaps they thought

him easy meat, three on one. He disabused them. His sword left the scabbard smoothly, as smoothly as he

flowed from The Falcon Stoops to The Creeper Embraces the Oak to The Moon Rises Over the Lakes. Three

times he felt the shock in his wrists of blade meeting flesh, and that quickly three veiled Aielmen were down;

two still moving weakly, but they were out of the fight as much as the other

[Kahsm]

The lucky comment is what makes it ambiguous. Since that obviously means he's referring to Gawyn's showing in specific fights. All of which were pre-bonding.

 

Only for those looking really hard for a way around his very straight forward and unambiguous answer that ranked Gawyn behind the other three.

 

Taking the piece of the answer you like out of the context doesn't make it "straight forward".

 

Brandon must agree with me that Gawyn looks bad ass and better than Galad in the text or he wouldn't have felt he needed to explain his answer in that way. "Lucky" suggests quite clearly you SHOULD believe Gawyn is better, when read separately from the word of the author. Nowhere in the book does it state he was only lucky.

[capuga]

The lucky comment is what makes it ambiguous. Since that obviously means he's referring to Gawyn's showing in specific fights. All of which were pre-bonding.

 

Only for those looking really hard for a way around his very straight forward and unambiguous answer that ranked Gawyn behind the other three.

 

Taking the piece of the answer you like out of the context doesn't make it "straight forward".

 

Brandon must agree with me that Gawyn looks bad ass and better than Galad in the text or he wouldn't have felt he needed to explain his answer in that way. "Lucky" suggests quite clearly you SHOULD believe Gawyn is better, when read separately from the word of the author. Nowhere in the book does it state he was only lucky.

 

Question: How do the swordsmen rank against each other?

Answer: Lan>Rand (pre-losing hand)>Galad>Gawyn

 

Answers don't really get much more straight forward then that.

 

The rest of your post I pretty much agree with. I understand people thinking Gawyn seems more of a badass based on the descriptions in the book. He's had more opportunities to show off his skills then Galad. It doesn't change the fact that we have a straight forward Word of God that clearly ranks them.

 

Argue that Brandon shouldn't have made Gawyn look so good in the book if he's not as good as the others if you want. I understand that. But to argue that Gawyn is actually better no matter what the author and the notes say is just silly with a side of arrogance.

[David Selig]

Not that I care much about these rankings, but as far as I know, the only direct comparison between the fighting skills of Galad and Gawyn is the one i quoted in my previous post. So to say that all the evidence in the books show Gawyn to be better is simply wrong. The best evidence clearly the other way.

[Kahsm]

The lucky comment is what makes it ambiguous. Since that obviously means he's referring to Gawyn's showing in specific fights. All of which were pre-bonding.

 

Only for those looking really hard for a way around his very straight forward and unambiguous answer that ranked Gawyn behind the other three.

 

Taking the piece of the answer you like out of the context doesn't make it "straight forward".

 

Brandon must agree with me that Gawyn looks bad ass and better than Galad in the text or he wouldn't have felt he needed to explain his answer in that way. "Lucky" suggests quite clearly you SHOULD believe Gawyn is better, when read separately from the word of the author. Nowhere in the book does it state he was only lucky.

 

Question: How do the swordsmen rank against each other?

Answer: Lan>Rand (pre-losing hand)>Galad>Gawyn

 

Answers don't really get much more straight forward then that.

 

The rest of your post I pretty much agree with. I understand people thinking Gawyn seems more of a badass based on the descriptions in the book. He's had more opportunities to show off his skills then Galad. It doesn't change the fact that we have a straight forward Word of God that clearly ranks them.

 

Argue that Brandon shouldn't have made Gawyn look so good in the book if he's not as good as the others if you want. I understand that. But to argue that Gawyn is actually better no matter what the author and the notes say is just silly with a side of arrogance.

 

Is that an actual quote? Cause I have this:

 

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

 

I have said I do accept the word of God (despite all in-text evidence). I am just still skeptical as to whether or not it applies to post-bonding. It seems odd Brandon would shut the door on the possibility of an upset in a new book. It's like saying, "Gawyn will always be worse than Galad", which is not something I'd expect him to say. I would expect he'd speak about the fights that have already happened.

 

I have actually made the argument that it may simply be the difference in how RJ wrote fights vs Brandon using much more detail and getting more into the character's thought process that makes Gawyn look faster and smarter. When really it's just a writing style thing.

 

Someone ask on twitter, Brandon never responds to me. Someone with a name he might actually pay attention to.

 

Something like, "Given Gawyn was not as good a swordsman as Galad before, will Egwene's bond make him better?"

 

I mean if he comes back and says, "no galad is WAY better than Galad" then I'd just be pissed at the author since the text certainly doesn't say that. If he were to say, "it would be close" then that'd be fine.

[1Brotherbill]

I don't have a problem with the rankings from Sanderson. What I have a problem with is the shear amount of blademasters. It seems you can't swing a dead cat without hitting one in the book. Warders all over the tower, people from across the ocean, farmers in the two rivers, people in the boarderlands, rich people down south, there is just too many. It kind of makes being a blademaster kind of a meaningless title don't you think?

[Suttree]

I have said I do accept the word of God (despite all in-text evidence).

 

You keep saying this but what are you going off? The duel with the blood knives(BS basically said he got lucky) or the duel with Sleet and the other warder? The quote that pops to mind for me is the one David provided, Gawyn saying straight out how much better Galad is.

[Elan Tedronai]

ofcourse gawyn would say that. he has an inferiority complex in regards to galad. The guy didnt even look at egwene when he thought galad fancied her.

[Suttree]

ofcourse gawyn would say that. he has an inferiority complex in regards to galad. The guy didnt even look at egwene when he thought galad fancied her.

 

It's not just that though Elan, look at the quote. Gawyn talks straight out about the longer time spent and how hard he has to work in training to learn something that Galad picks up right away.

[capuga]

ofcourse gawyn would say that. he has an inferiority complex in regards to galad. The guy didnt even look at egwene when he thought galad fancied her.

 

It's not just that though Elan, look at the quote. Gawyn takes straight out about the longer time spent and how hard he has to work in training to learn something that Galad picks up right away.

 

Not to mention he also gives how many times out of 5 sparring matches Galad wins against Hammar vs how many he wins. And you have all the people (warders and Aes Sedai) that watch the practices and think Galad is better. That is just Gawyn being honest about their comparative skills.

[Entreri]

Brandon was very clear on this, unless people are unaware of the rankings. Lan > Rand > Galad > Gawyn. The only ambiguity was if Galad was still better than Gawyn, and Brandon has answered, yes.

[Duskfire]

And Mat and Rhuarc > all :P

[Kahsm]

ofcourse gawyn would say that. he has an inferiority complex in regards to galad. The guy didnt even look at egwene when he thought galad fancied her.

 

It's not just that though Elan, look at the quote. Gawyn takes straight out about the longer time spent and how hard he has to work in training to learn something that Galad picks up right away.

 

Not to mention he also gives how many times out of 5 sparring matches Galad wins against Hammar vs how many he wins. And you have all the people (warders and Aes Sedai) that watch the practices and think Galad is better. That is just Gawyn being honest about their comparative skills.

 

They watch him because he's beautiful. And they think he's better for the same reason beautiful people often get promoted more IRL than the ugos.

 

Gawyn also clearly states he owes Galad and shows over and over again he will always put Galad first before himself. That's going to include letting him be a better swordsman on top of letting him have Egwene. And as for learning faster, it seems to be a tortoise and the hare situation. Galad has taken a nap from training. Gawyn seems to hang around in pretty much stationary camps since the tower split, train is all he really does. So the "catch up" is easily explained.

 

And then Gawyn's targets have been hyped up as super soldiers and then he fights a handful at once. Also, it's how BS writes Gawyn. The detail with which we see in his PoV is way more than we ever got from Rand. just make shim seem more intelligent, considering, and faster.

 

So you can keep talking about "duels" where no one's life is in danger and it doesn't really count for anything, particularly for a guy who TRIES to live his life in the shadows of others (Elayne and Galad). But when it actually counts, Gawyn is a superstar.

 

And even if Galad learns faster, he's been busy with the whitecloaks. Gawyn has basically spent his time since the tower split training. The younglings barely do anything other than sit in camps.

[Suttree]

ofcourse gawyn would say that. he has an inferiority complex in regards to galad. The guy didnt even look at egwene when he thought galad fancied her.

 

It's not just that though Elan, look at the quote. Gawyn takes straight out about the longer time spent and how hard he has to work in training to learn something that Galad picks up right away.

 

Not to mention he also gives how many times out of 5 sparring matches Galad wins against Hammar vs how many he wins. And you have all the people (warders and Aes Sedai) that watch the practices and think Galad is better. That is just Gawyn being honest about their comparative skills.

 

They watch him because he's beautiful. And they think he's better for the same reason beautiful people often get promoted more IRL than the ugos.

 

Gawyn also clearly states he owes Galad and shows over and over again he will always put Galad first before himself. That's going to include letting him be a better swordsman on top of letting him have Egwene. And as for learning faster, it seems to be a tortoise and the hare situation. Galad has taken a nap from training. Gawyn seems to hang around in pretty much stationary camps since the tower split, train is all he really does. So the "catch up" is easily explained.

 

And then Gawyn's targets have been hyped up as super soldiers and then he fights a handful at once. Also, it's how BS writes Gawyn. The detail with which we see in his PoV is way more than we ever got from Rand. just make shim seem more intelligent, considering, and faster.

 

So you can keep talking about "duels" where no one's life is in danger and it doesn't really count for anything, particularly for a guy who TRIES to live his life in the shadows of others (Elayne and Galad). But when it actually counts, Gawyn is a superstar.

 

And even if Galad learns faster, he's been busy with the whitecloaks. Gawyn has basically spent his time since the tower split training. The younglings barely do anything other than sit in camps.

 

Couple questions.

 

1. Why would you think Galad isn't training with the Whitecloacks? It's a military organization, surely they have this in their daily routine. The fight with Valda was quite impressive enough to show his skills haven't stopped growing and most certainly his life was in danger. When have we ever not seen Galad perform well in a fight that counts?

 

2. As has been mentioned before BS said Gawyn was luckier than he though against the blood knives. Not sure why this would be the scene that convinces you?

[Kahsm]

ofcourse gawyn would say that. he has an inferiority complex in regards to galad. The guy didnt even look at egwene when he thought galad fancied her.

 

It's not just that though Elan, look at the quote. Gawyn takes straight out about the longer time spent and how hard he has to work in training to learn something that Galad picks up right away.

 

Not to mention he also gives how many times out of 5 sparring matches Galad wins against Hammar vs how many he wins. And you have all the people (warders and Aes Sedai) that watch the practices and think Galad is better. That is just Gawyn being honest about their comparative skills.

 

They watch him because he's beautiful. And they think he's better for the same reason beautiful people often get promoted more IRL than the ugos.

 

Gawyn also clearly states he owes Galad and shows over and over again he will always put Galad first before himself. That's going to include letting him be a better swordsman on top of letting him have Egwene. And as for learning faster, it seems to be a tortoise and the hare situation. Galad has taken a nap from training. Gawyn seems to hang around in pretty much stationary camps since the tower split, train is all he really does. So the "catch up" is easily explained.

 

And then Gawyn's targets have been hyped up as super soldiers and then he fights a handful at once. Also, it's how BS writes Gawyn. The detail with which we see in his PoV is way more than we ever got from Rand. just make shim seem more intelligent, considering, and faster.

 

So you can keep talking about "duels" where no one's life is in danger and it doesn't really count for anything, particularly for a guy who TRIES to live his life in the shadows of others (Elayne and Galad). But when it actually counts, Gawyn is a superstar.

 

And even if Galad learns faster, he's been busy with the whitecloaks. Gawyn has basically spent his time since the tower split training. The younglings barely do anything other than sit in camps.

 

Couple questions.

 

1. Why would you think Galad isn't training with the Whitecloacks? It's a military organization, surely they have this in their daily routine. The fight with Valda was quite impressive enough to show his skills haven't stopped growing and most certainly his life was in danger. When have we ever not seen Galad perform well in a fight that counts?

 

2. As has been mentioned before BS said Gawyn was luckier than he though against the blood knives. Not sure why this would be the scene that convinces you?

 

1. Because we've seen Gawyn practicing, the same way we see Rand practice. We don't see Galad practice. We also see whitecloaks actually doing stuff, holding cities and the like. And yes they probably do their daily work to keep sharp. But Gawyn's only pass time seems to be training, for most of the books since then tower split. A miliary that is basically at rest is improving itself faster than a military that is committed somewhere. There's simply much less time split between training and active duty.

 

2. I'm not arguing that Gawyn is better than Galad. I was answering a question as to why the text suggests otherwise. And as I noted earlier, and Grayson seemed to agree, Sanderson must also recognize that or he wouldn't have had to clarify his ranking system by saying Gawyn was "lucky", since it's not stated anywhere in the text.

 

Having some luck thrown in doesn't completely invalidate the fact that he kicked ass there, just lessons the win a bit (enough to justify why Galad is still apparently better).

[Gabriel Kross]

man even with word of god you guys are still going on about this?

[Elan Tedronai]

ranking are worthless at the moment. The word of god is useless because the real author died years ago without any updated information on sword rankings and the current author is well..... let's just say i cant take his rankings seriously....

[Suttree]

ranking are worthless at the moment. The word of god is useless because the real author died years ago without any updated information on sword rankings and the current author is well..... let's just say i cant take his rankings seriously....

 

Sorry Elan, that doesn't fly, you aren't privy as to when RJ last updated his notes...