Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Grizz

Blademaster Worthiness

Recommended Posts

Oops! I accidentally posted this originally in the social community. I have always been as stickler for who deserves what. I understand that to be a "blademaster" you have to either kill another blademaster in a fair sword to sword fight, or have a pannel of blademasters deem you worthy. However, I had a thought cross my mind while reading about Lan training Rand in Shienar in TGH. Lets say you are training to be a warder. You have not quite reached blademaster status. However, if an Aes Sedai bonds you and you suddenly increase in strength, speed, endurance, and all that other good stuff, and you suddenly are good enough to become a blademaster, are you considered a blademaster? I mean, you didn't earn the right to be a blademaster on your own. Your warder bond helped you step up to that level. But then again, you are good enough to be a blademaster now, so you should be. What are your thoughts? It just didn't seem right that someone can carry a heron marked blade when they didn't reach that level on their own. But, I guess a blademaster is a blademaster no matter how they attained it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oops! I accidentally posted this originally in the social community. I have always been as stickler for who deserves what. I understand that to be a "blademaster" you have to either kill another blademaster in a fair sword to sword fight, or have a pannel of blademasters deem you worthy. However, I had a thought cross my mind while reading about Lan training Rand in Shienar in TGH. Lets say you are training to be a warder. You have not quite reached blademaster status. However, if an Aes Sedai bonds you and you suddenly increase in strength, speed, endurance, and all that other good stuff, and you suddenly are good enough to become a blademaster, are you considered a blademaster? I mean, you didn't earn the right to be a blademaster on your own. Your warder bond helped you step up to that level. But then again, you are good enough to be a blademaster now, so you should be. What are your thoughts? It just didn't seem right that someone can carry a heron marked blade when they didn't reach that level on their own. But, I guess a blademaster is a blademaster no matter how they attained it.

 

 

The Warder bond doesn't make them faster or stronger.

It's about granting them much greater endurance and recovery abilities. They can go longer without food or sleep, they heal quicker and can sense Shadowspawn in a close proximity.

The drawing on their AS's strength or vice versa is about supplementing endurance, it's not about actually allowing them to lift more weight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will repost my reply to the topic in the other forum because I assume one of them will probably be closed.

 

 

As far as I understand, in order to be a Blademaster you either have to kill another one in one on one combat or you gotta be deemed worthy by a few other Blademasters (forgot the exact number). Whether or not your increased physical prowess will play a role in the attending Blademaster "judges" is totally up to them I assume. To be honest, it seems mostly about skill and technique anyway, and less about strength and endurance. If you've trained for long enough to be skilled enough, you should have the endurance no matter what.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your warder bond helped you step up to that level. But then again, you are good enough to be a blademaster now, so you should be. What are your thoughts? It just didn't seem right that someone can carry a heron marked blade when they didn't reach that level on their own. But, I guess a blademaster is a blademaster no matter how they attained it.

Sword-fighting in WOT is not a competitive Olympic sport. You are what you are however you got there.

 

The Warder bond doesn't make them faster or stronger.It's about granting them much greater endurance and recovery abilities. They can go longer without food or sleep, they heal quicker and can sense Shadowspawn in a close proximity.The drawing on their AS's strength or vice versa is about supplementing endurance, it's not about actually allowing them to lift more weight.

I rather think warders are, at least, faster or more agile and have greater awareness -- better senses or perception.

The books constantly repeat how warders walk differently, a graceful animal-like walk, suggesting that the bond gives more than endurance.

Also, again, warders are repeatedly described as ever vigilant -- see everything, even when they seem half asleep or minding their own business. This suggests that warders do have heightened senses, also handy in a sword-fight.

 

 

Hmm... I wonder, is Bonded Gawyn now better than Galad?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hmm... I wonder, is Bonded Gawyn now better than Galad?

 

No.

That literally made me lol. Poor, needy, nauseating Gawyn still gets no love.

 

Back on topic - Yes, they can get blademaster status as a result of warder benefit because, lets face it, warder status is (for the 99.99% of them) lifelong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your warder bond helped you step up to that level. But then again, you are good enough to be a blademaster now, so you should be. What are your thoughts? It just didn't seem right that someone can carry a heron marked blade when they didn't reach that level on their own. But, I guess a blademaster is a blademaster no matter how they attained it.

Sword-fighting in WOT is not a competitive Olympic sport. You are what you are however you got there.

 

The Warder bond doesn't make them faster or stronger.It's about granting them much greater endurance and recovery abilities. They can go longer without food or sleep, they heal quicker and can sense Shadowspawn in a close proximity.The drawing on their AS's strength or vice versa is about supplementing endurance, it's not about actually allowing them to lift more weight.

I rather think warders are, at least, faster or more agile and have greater awareness -- better senses or perception.

The books constantly repeat how warders walk differently, a graceful animal-like walk, suggesting that the bond gives more than endurance.

Also, again, warders are repeatedly described as ever vigilant -- see everything, even when they seem half asleep or minding their own business. This suggests that warders do have heightened senses, also handy in a sword-fight.

 

 

They aren't more agile or faster and it's never said to be the case ever. It's never even alluded to that Warders can move faster than anyone else. If fact, their reactions are mostly attributed to their extensive training, not the bond itself.

 

And how is the way Warders walk around any different than the way the Aiel are described?

Rhurac and Lan carry themselves almost identically.

Edited by Finnssss

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your warder bond helped you step up to that level. But then again, you are good enough to be a blademaster now, so you should be. What are your thoughts? It just didn't seem right that someone can carry a heron marked blade when they didn't reach that level on their own. But, I guess a blademaster is a blademaster no matter how they attained it.

Sword-fighting in WOT is not a competitive Olympic sport. You are what you are however you got there.

 

The Warder bond doesn't make them faster or stronger.It's about granting them much greater endurance and recovery abilities. They can go longer without food or sleep, they heal quicker and can sense Shadowspawn in a close proximity.The drawing on their AS's strength or vice versa is about supplementing endurance, it's not about actually allowing them to lift more weight.

I rather think warders are, at least, faster or more agile and have greater awareness -- better senses or perception.

The books constantly repeat how warders walk differently, a graceful animal-like walk, suggesting that the bond gives more than endurance.

Also, again, warders are repeatedly described as ever vigilant -- see everything, even when they seem half asleep or minding their own business. This suggests that warders do have heightened senses, also handy in a sword-fight.

 

 

Hmm... I wonder, is Bonded Gawyn now better than Galad?

 

Their animal grace comes from learning the sword, not from the warder bond, Galad has the same grace that warders have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hmm... I wonder, is Bonded Gawyn now better than Galad?

 

No.

 

 

sanderson can say all he likes. gawyn would destroy galad right now. The first time galad faced a true blademaster he was getting his ass kicked until he feigned tiredness. Galad is overrated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hmm... I wonder, is Bonded Gawyn now better than Galad?

 

No.

 

 

sanderson can say all he likes. gawyn would destroy galad right now. The first time galad faced a true blademaster he was getting his ass kicked until he feigned tiredness. Galad is overrated.

 

 

Don't start this again, there's a whole ridiculous thread for it already where you can go and argue that you are right and the author's are wrong :wacko:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hmm... I wonder, is Bonded Gawyn now better than Galad?

 

No.

 

 

sanderson can say all he likes. gawyn would destroy galad right now. The first time galad faced a true blademaster he was getting his ass kicked until he feigned tiredness. Galad is overrated.

 

RJ could have written a scene in AMOL, where Galad owns Gawyn in a fair 1 vs 1 and people would still say it was Sanderson's doing and in no way canon.

 

Anyhow, Gawyn and Galad fought different blademasters. For all we know, their opponent's differences might have been that of Lan and Rand. Rand being a blademaster level, but Lan would still hand his ass to him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sanderson can say all he likes. gawyn would destroy galad right now. The first time galad faced a true blademaster he was getting his ass kicked until he feigned tiredness. Galad is overrated.

 

And if Egwene hadn't woken up and Healed him, Gawyn would be dead from the wounds he suffered. Look he's a good swords man, and he killed some Bloodknifes.. should I be impressed? I don't underestimate their prowess but we're given no indication that they are Blademasters or even in that league.

 

For all intent and purposes, Gawyn died against those Bloodknifes when you take away the Aes Sedai factor. Sure he took them down with him, point being though that he went down.

 

Galad didn't.

 

Deal with it. Galad would eat Gawyn.

Edited by Jon Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RJ could have written a scene in AMOL, where Galad owns Gawyn in a fair 1 vs 1 and people would still say it was Sanderson's doing and in no way canon.

 

Riiiight.... because of all the Gawyn fanboys right? I mean he's one of the most popular characters, I hate how everyone always works him up to be so much more than he is all the time </sarcasm>

 

(in other words, you are out of your mind crazy and make no sense)

 

sanderson can say all he likes. gawyn would destroy galad right now. The first time galad faced a true blademaster he was getting his ass kicked until he feigned tiredness. Galad is overrated.

 

And if Egwene hadn't woken up and Healed him, Gawyn would be dead from the wounds he suffered. Look he's a good swords man, and he killed some Bloodknifes.. should I be impressed? I don't underestimate their prowess but we're given no indication that they are Blademasters or even in that league.

 

For all intent and purposes, Gawyn died against those Bloodknifes when you take away the Aes Sedai factor. Sure he took them down with him, point being though that he went down.

 

Galad didn't.

 

Deal with it. Galad would eat Gawyn.

 

Galad didn't what? Fight bloodknives at all? Go 2v1 against 2 warders, one of which an official blademaster who told Gawyn that they needed to get him a heron marked sword cause he was that good? You're right, Galad hasn't done any of that. And I'm sure that he's had his entire days free to practice while raising the ranks of the CoL. I mean Gawyn spent all his free time with the younglings, and in Garth's army, sitting on his ass right?

 

And while I'm more willing to accept the words of BS than Elan is (at least pre-bonding), the suggestion of Gawyn's awesomeness is in how his PoV is written when he fights. If you read him vs an earlier Rand PoV there is just SO much more than Gawyn thinks about. It just seems to suggest he must think a lot faster than Rand does. And Rand's PoVs were really just "cat on the fence into whipping willows" and crap, while Gawyn considers the situations harder and responds in kind. He considers group versus one on one approaches.

 

Now it's entirely possible, and probably likely, that it's just a difference in how RJ wrote the combat versus how Brandon writes it. But the effect is that it makes Gawyn look a smarter, faster, and more aware than anyone we've seen yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sanderson can say all he likes. gawyn would destroy galad right now. The first time galad faced a true blademaster he was getting his ass kicked until he feigned tiredness. Galad is overrated.

 

And if Egwene hadn't woken up and Healed him, Gawyn would be dead from the wounds he suffered. Look he's a good swords man, and he killed some Bloodknifes.. should I be impressed? I don't underestimate their prowess but we're given no indication that they are Blademasters or even in that league.

 

For all intent and purposes, Gawyn died against those Bloodknifes when you take away the Aes Sedai factor. Sure he took them down with him, point being though that he went down.

 

Galad didn't.

 

Deal with it. Galad would eat Gawyn.

 

 

 

Bloodknives are the seanchan elite warriors, chosen because of their prowess with the sword. Plus given ter'angreal that makes them all but unstoppable, the former Sul'Dams reaction to the boodknife in caemlyn says it all, and by all accounts their pretty unshakeable themselves.

Gawyns feat in defeating 3 of them at once can't be overestimated.

As to who would win between him and Galad, well, that would be the pay per view event of the century. Someone call don king.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sanderson can say all he likes. gawyn would destroy galad right now. The first time galad faced a true blademaster he was getting his ass kicked until he feigned tiredness. Galad is overrated.

 

And if Egwene hadn't woken up and Healed him, Gawyn would be dead from the wounds he suffered. Look he's a good swords man, and he killed some Bloodknifes.. should I be impressed? I don't underestimate their prowess but we're given no indication that they are Blademasters or even in that league.

 

For all intent and purposes, Gawyn died against those Bloodknifes when you take away the Aes Sedai factor. Sure he took them down with him, point being though that he went down.

 

Galad didn't.

 

Deal with it. Galad would eat Gawyn.

 

The problem you have is that you are starting from book 12 when it was book 4 we the reader see first hand of gawyn's true skill with the blade. He kills his teachers, 2 blademasters in one single night and stops the entire warder contingent from freeing siuan. Then throughout the books we see him kill and take out every single opponent he faces. Man, warder, shaido Aiel you name it. He bitch slaps legendary guys like sleete for fun. Even legendary warriors like bloodknives with terangreal who gang up on him in a dark room with cramped space could not finish him off without getting killed themselves.

 

If you take away his first fight with mat when he was still raw, he has beaten everyone who has faced him. Galad is good. But Gawyn is better. He's the better swordsman, better general and better leader as well. The younglings attest to that fact. The only thing holding gawyn back is his inferiority complex in regards to galad who he believes owes his life for saving him. Infact gawyn at first thought galad fancied egwene which stopped him from even considering chasing after her.

 

And now that he is bonded, he is second only to that freakshow that is lan. Another couple of years and gawyn will surpass him too. Youth and peakness always trumphs old age. Lan is approaching randy couture territory

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sanderson can say all he likes. gawyn would destroy galad right now. The first time galad faced a true blademaster he was getting his ass kicked until he feigned tiredness. Galad is overrated.

 

And if Egwene hadn't woken up and Healed him, Gawyn would be dead from the wounds he suffered. Look he's a good swords man, and he killed some Bloodknifes.. should I be impressed? I don't underestimate their prowess but we're given no indication that they are Blademasters or even in that league.

 

For all intent and purposes, Gawyn died against those Bloodknifes when you take away the Aes Sedai factor. Sure he took them down with him, point being though that he went down.

 

Galad didn't.

 

Deal with it. Galad would eat Gawyn.

 

The problem you have is that you are starting from book 12 when it was book 4 we the reader see first hand of gawyn's true skill with the blade. He kills his teachers, 2 blademasters in one single night and stops the entire warder contingent from freeing siuan. Then throughout the books we see him kill and take out every single opponent he faces. Man, warder, shaido Aiel you name it. He bitch slaps legendary guys like sleete for fun. Even legendary warriors like bloodknives with terangreal who gang up on him in a dark room with cramped space could not finish him off without getting killed themselves.

 

If you take away his first fight with mat when he was still raw, he has beaten everyone who has faced him. Galad is good. But Gawyn is better. He's the better swordsman, better general and better leader as well. The younglings attest to that fact. The only thing holding gawyn back is his inferiority complex in regards to galad who he believes owes his life for saving him. Infact gawyn at first thought galad fancied egwene which stopped him from even considering chasing after her.

 

And now that he is bonded, he is second only to that freakshow that is lan. Another couple of years and gawyn will surpass him too. Youth and peakness always trumphs old age. Lan is approaching randy couture territory

 

 

Except...unfortunately you don't write the books, some guys named Sanderson and Jordan do/did and both of them say/said Galad>Gawyn sooooo...you can keep on screaming like a 2 year old trying to get your way but it doesn't matter because, in this case, "GOD" had spoken. You're done! Unless your goal is to be portrayed as the fool, in that case, job well done :tongue:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Galad is definitely a better swordsman than Gawyn, Valda was just that much better than galad (hard to believe)

 

Gawyn's fight with the blood knives is not only unlikely, but completey impossible, reality strickes again (if BS wanted it to be a little believable it would have had to included a description that the blood knives were choked, there was not enough room for them to attack at the same time, so maybe he defeats one in fair combat, a second one slips and the last dies per the story (in the dark in a trade of strikes)

 

Warder bond improves speed coordination... proof bryne used the black lance move to kill a blood knife, struck into the neck a half seen shadow (this doesn't contradict my earlier statement, as the blood knife was smart enough to know to kill siuan first, warders are there to stop that kind of thing, the blood knife not engage bryne in a duel (had he engaged bryne in a duel, who knows what the result would have been, the blood knife would probably have won if siuan weren't there, but she was and there was no duel so the point is moot))

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Galad is definitely a better swordsman than Gawyn, Valda was just that much better than galad (hard to believe)

 

Gawyn's fight with the blood knives is not only unlikely, but completey impossible, reality strickes again (if BS wanted it to be a little believable it would have had to included a description that the blood knives were choked, there was not enough room for them to attack at the same time, so maybe he defeats one in fair combat, a second one slips and the last dies per the story (in the dark in a trade of strikes)

 

Warder bond improves speed coordination... proof bryne used the black lance move to kill a blood knife, struck into the neck a half seen shadow (this doesn't contradict my earlier statement, as the blood knife was smart enough to know to kill siuan first, warders are there to stop that kind of thing, the blood knife not engage bryne in a duel (had he engaged bryne in a duel, who knows what the result would have been, the blood knife would probably have won if siuan weren't there, but she was and there was no duel so the point is moot))

So you're saying Galad is better than Gawyn because you're dismissing one of the fights that suggests otherwise?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As one who has been studying the sword for almost 2 years now, I can say that everything I have learned from the actual blademasters that I have been studying with, that personal strength or speed is often not a factor in winning a dual. It's skill, every time. I've seen old men with artificial hips own younger, fit men with less training. Hell, I've BEEN one of those younger men, and I am far stonger than the knight I'm talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your warder bond helped you step up to that level. But then again, you are good enough to be a blademaster now, so you should be. What are your thoughts? It just didn't seem right that someone can carry a heron marked blade when they didn't reach that level on their own. But, I guess a blademaster is a blademaster no matter how they attained it.

Sword-fighting in WOT is not a competitive Olympic sport. You are what you are however you got there.

 

The Warder bond doesn't make them faster or stronger.It's about granting them much greater endurance and recovery abilities. They can go longer without food or sleep, they heal quicker and can sense Shadowspawn in a close proximity.The drawing on their AS's strength or vice versa is about supplementing endurance, it's not about actually allowing them to lift more weight.

I rather think warders are, at least, faster or more agile and have greater awareness -- better senses or perception.

The books constantly repeat how warders walk differently, a graceful animal-like walk, suggesting that the bond gives more than endurance.

Also, again, warders are repeatedly described as ever vigilant -- see everything, even when they seem half asleep or minding their own business. This suggests that warders do have heightened senses, also handy in a sword-fight.

 

 

They aren't more agile or faster and it's never said to be the case ever. It's never even alluded to that Warders can move faster than anyone else. If fact, their reactions are mostly attributed to their extensive training, not the bond itself.

 

And how is the way Warders walk around any different than the way the Aiel are described?

Rhurac and Lan carry themselves almost identically.

 

Sorry, but you are wrong here. It is said numerous times taht the warder bond increases reactions, speed and physical ability (even to the point where an old warder can maintain the physique of a young man). The first example that springs top mind is Gareth Bryne, just after being bonded by Siuan and while "raiding" the Tower to "rescue" Egwene, saves Siuan from the Bloodknife. Pages 647-648 Hardback TGS: "Bryne moved without thought. Three things in him mixed: years of training with the sword, a lifetime of practiced battlefield reflexes and a new bond-enhanced awareness" - the awareness indicates an increase in reflex/reaction times. Earlier in the book, just after being bonded, Bryne states "I could run a thousand leagues and never want for breath. I could stand against a hundred foes at once and laugh at them all." She rolled her eyes....all he could think about was how much better he might have become at swordplay!"

 

Additionally, on the wiki, it mentions an improved physical prowess for the Warder. I don't think it's ever explicitly stated that warders are faster, but combine the obvious references to improved reflexes and physical fitness with what we've seen of warders in action, and I think it's pretty obvious that they gain benefits in reaction time, reflexes and therefore physical speed. Unless you care to tell me a Warder isn't physically enhanced by the bond?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you're saying Galad is better than Gawyn because you're dismissing one of the fights that suggests otherwise?

 

Yes, absolutely, it's pure fiction :P but seriously, do you believe that fight, 3 against 1, and all three of them are hopped up on some sort of performance enhancing ter-angreal and gawyn isn't even wardered yet.

 

also consider the possibility that the ter-angreal works with decreasing effectiveness. and so close to their death, their blood is already poisoned so there performance is now below their non-enhanced level. so that makes the fight more realistic, but it makes the blood knives incredibly stupid to wait as long as they did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you're saying Galad is better than Gawyn because you're dismissing one of the fights that suggests otherwise?

 

Yes, absolutely, it's pure fiction :P but seriously, do you believe that fight, 3 against 1, and all three of them are hopped up on some sort of performance enhancing ter-angreal and gawyn isn't even wardered yet.

 

also consider the possibility that the ter-angreal works with decreasing effectiveness. and so close to their death, their blood is already poisoned so there performance is now below their non-enhanced level. so that makes the fight more realistic, but it makes the blood knives incredibly stupid to wait as long as they did.

 

Or Gawyn is just freakin' awesome. The poor SOB should be good at SOMETHING.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How dare you suggest that a fantasy novel is pure fiction.

 

We know it's an accurate historical record, and beyond contestation.

Edited by The Mistress of Baal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Bloodknives are the seanchan elite warriors, chosen because of their prowess with the sword. Plus given ter'angreal that makes them all but unstoppable, the former Sul'Dams reaction to the boodknife in caemlyn says it all, and by all accounts their pretty unshakeable themselves.

Gawyns feat in defeating 3 of them at once can't be overestimated.

As to who would win between him and Galad, well, that would be the pay per view event of the century. Someone call don king.

 

Well, Seanchan just aren't as skilled as Randlanders. Rand defeated that blademaster dude (whose name escapes me atm) at Falme while he was still rather noob swordsman.

 

So if that's the height of Seanchan swordsmen elite, then 3 bloodknives could be rather shitty compared to your average blademaster in Randland. Although they did have the ter'angreal.

 

And just for the record, I think the whole fight against the bloodknives was stupid. Really, no one should stand a chance under the circumstances Gawyn was in. The bloodknives were acting like retards. They have one goal and they live to fulfill it, but yet they decide to keep fucking around with that one dude standing on the way, instead of going for the kill of that sleeping beauty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...