Egwene, Lying to World Leaders

[nool]

...dreams are considered evidence why the Seals should not be broken?

 

For a dreamer who can glean the future from them I would think so yes.

I agree that Egwene's dreams should definitely be given significant weight. It's basically the Pattern pointing and saying "Look here! This is important!" However, her interpretation is not necessarily going to be valid.

 

The vision that seems significant here from Egwene's point of view is the one from The Amyrlin's Anger. There's an enormous sphere of the finest crystal, sparkling in the light of twenty-three stars. There's cracks in it, and it's being held together by ropes. Rand chops apart the ropes holding it together, and the sphere breaks apart. Rand then shakes his head. There's no immediate connection to the seals. Egwene makes a connection when Rand tells her his plan to break the seals, later in the chapter.

 

We know that Egwene has interpreted the dream as pertaining to Rand's decision to break the seals. Lets assume she's correct. What she doesn't know is whether or not it's a bad thing. We don't know what the twenty-three stars represent, we don't know exactly what the sphere is, we don't know if the sphere falling apart is a good or bad thing, etc. We don't even know what is significant in the dream. Is it significant that Rand used an ax, whereas he's been associated with a sword for the rest of the series? Is it significant that Rand was cutting through ropes, rather than smashing seals? Is the number of stars actually significant?

 

What we know:

-Rand is, by his deliberate actions, going to destroy something beautiful.

-Egwene believes that this act of destruction is related to the destruction of the Seals. It's her dream, and I think that it's safe to assume she's right about this and not misinterpreting things due to the proximity of the dream to Rand's declaration.

 

The issue isn't really with Egwene as a dreamer, it's with Egwene being locked into one viewpoint that her dreams haven't justified.

 

7 Ajahs, 3 Sitters per Ajah, one Amrylin, one Keeper of the Chronicles = 23.

 

Just sayin'

 

[Hopefire]

The President walks into a joint session meeting of Congress at the height of the Cold War. "In one month, I need you guys to meet me by the Washington Monument. The day after, I'm going to drop a nuclear bomb on Moscow. This is necessary to eliminate the USSR. I can't explain more now, now please let me go." The President then walks out.

 

IMO, replace the Senate/Congress with UNICEF.

 

 

 

olver's grin:

 

Interesting, very interesting.

 

I hadn't considered that, but that seems to make it less likely that that dream is about the Seals. I may have to revse my assumption that Egwene correctly interpretted the dream when Rand raised the subject. Despite Amyrlin claims to the contrary, the White Tower hasn't had a connection with the seals that we know of. Also, in retrospect, there was no mention of evil darkness or the like though it took place at night. The focus was on the destruction of a thing of beauty, not the release of an evil.

 

We know that the Tower is in some ways barely holding together after the damage that the rebellion did. The ropes might be analgous to that. Perhaps the dream has absolutely nothing to do with the Seals, and the warning it brings is that Rand is going to further break the White Tower by some he says or does. Or maybe he'll just destroy some collective illusions of the Aes Sedai. Perhaps he'll effectively destroy Aes Sedai worldwide political influence.

[maryemi'jigede]

Olver's grin - I like!

 

I haven't read everyone's posts, but I find it strange that Egwene, who seems to be quite intuitive and intelligent, would associate a pretty thing like that glowing sphere, with the Seals. Just odd that she even made the association.

 

Is this maybe her final test, as a character, to recognise Rand for who and what he is? Maybe if she stopped thinking of Rand as a boy from Emond's Field, Rand could actually get something done?? Maybe if she wasn't so used to proving herself to Gawyn, she wouldn't be so bent on making Rand see things her way? If Rand has "transcended", then maybe his friends and allies, including Egwene and Co., need to catch up and TRUST him before TG arrives. Which is a big ask, considering what a meanie he has been.

[nool]

I sort of just threw it out there, but it does make sense to me:

 

“She saw an enormous sphere made of the finest crystal. It sparkled in the light of twenty-three enormous stars, shining down on it where it sat on a dark hilltop. There were cracks in it, and it was being held together by ropes There was Rand, walking up the hillside, holding a woodman's axe. He reached the top and hefted the axe, then swung at the ropes one at a time, chopping them free. The last one parted, and the sphere began to break apart, the beautiful globe falling in pieces. Rand shook his head.”

 

Shining sphere, light, beautiful = White Tower

Stars = the basic power structure of WT

Cracks = The troubles and fractions within WT

 

Rand shaking his head also implies that this is not something he wants to do, but has to (OK, the same could be said about breaking the seals)

[Hopefire]

Is this maybe her final test, as a character, to recognise Rand for who and what he is? Maybe if she stopped thinking of Rand as a boy from Emond's Field, Rand could actually get something done?? Maybe if she wasn't so used to proving herself to Gawyn, she wouldn't be so bent on making Rand see things her way? If Rand has "transcended", then maybe his friends and allies, including Egwene and Co., need to catch up and TRUST him before TG arrives. Which is a big ask, considering what a meanie he has been.

 

I disagree with some of that. I do think that she needs to see Rand for what he is, but I disagree that seeing Rand as something other than the shepherd is what's necessary. I think that she had it half-right in The Amyrlin's Anger. She thinks that she has to think of him as Rand, who can be trusted, rather than as the Dragon Reborn, who must be feared. What she thinks a few lines down hits even closer to it:

 

The words were those of a madman, but they were spoken evenly. She looked at him, and remembered the youth he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything.

 

Even the fate of the world.

 

As Rand says later in the book, "I feel more like myself now than I have in months. I feel more like myself than I ever did as Lews Therin, if that makes any kind of sense. It's because of Tam, because of the people around me. You, Perrin, Nynaeve, Mat, Aviendha, Elayne, Moiraine. He tried very hard to break me. I think if I'd been the same as I was so long ago, he could have succeeded." Rand is what he needs to be because he's gone back to being the person he was at the start: significantly older and wiser, but he's himself again. It's Rand al'Thor that Egwene can trust, and that's who he is again.

 

Should Egwene be aware of Rand's immense power, both via armies and personally? Yes, and maybe she should give him respect for that. But respect for that isn't why she should follow him to the last battle. The Seanchan are nearly as strong, others in history have had larger armies and larger empires, and Rand's own personal destructive capability is less than it was when he had access to the Choedan Kal. Egwene should not follow Rand because he's a successful warlord. On a secular basis, he has no authority over the White Tower (the reverse also applies).

 

Rand should be questioned. Darlin had the right of it in his letter to Egwene. He should be opposed if he's wrong. At this point in the game he should not be opposed reflexively, and at the end of the day he can be trusted with the fate of the world.

[Kahsm]

Is this maybe her final test, as a character, to recognise Rand for who and what he is? Maybe if she stopped thinking of Rand as a boy from Emond's Field, Rand could actually get something done?? Maybe if she wasn't so used to proving herself to Gawyn, she wouldn't be so bent on making Rand see things her way? If Rand has "transcended", then maybe his friends and allies, including Egwene and Co., need to catch up and TRUST him before TG arrives. Which is a big ask, considering what a meanie he has been.

 

I disagree with some of that. I do think that she needs to see Rand for what he is, but I disagree that seeing Rand as something other than the shepherd is what's necessary. I think that she had it half-right in The Amyrlin's Anger. She thinks that she has to think of him as Rand, who can be trusted, rather than as the Dragon Reborn, who must be feared. What she thinks a few lines down hits even closer to it:

 

The words were those of a madman, but they were spoken evenly. She looked at him, and remembered the youth he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything.

 

Even the fate of the world.

 

As Rand says later in the book, "I feel more like myself now than I have in months. I feel more like myself than I ever did as Lews Therin, if that makes any kind of sense. It's because of Tam, because of the people around me. You, Perrin, Nynaeve, Mat, Aviendha, Elayne, Moiraine. He tried very hard to break me. I think if I'd been the same as I was so long ago, he could have succeeded." Rand is what he needs to be because he's gone back to being the person he was at the start: significantly older and wiser, but he's himself again. It's Rand al'Thor that Egwene can trust, and that's who he is again.

 

Should Egwene be aware of Rand's immense power, both via armies and personally? Yes, and maybe she should give him respect for that. But respect for that isn't why she should follow him to the last battle. The Seanchan are nearly as strong, others in history have had larger armies and larger empires, and Rand's own personal destructive capability is less than it was when he had access to the Choedan Kal. Egwene should not follow Rand because he's a successful warlord. On a secular basis, he has no authority over the White Tower (the reverse also applies).

 

Rand should be questioned. Darlin had the right of it in his letter to Egwene. He should be opposed if he's wrong. At this point in the game he should not be opposed reflexively, and at the end of the day he can be trusted with the fate of the world.

 

The point is that he is wrong, at least relative to everything everyone but a handful who spend a lot of time near Rand believe, and us Readers.

 

The teacher dude at the Carihien school even says, "Break the seals? Break the seals? Why would anyone but a madman want to do that?" (LoC).

 

LTT says, "Break the seals, break the seals and end it. Let me die forever". Do you think that was a sane thought about actually winning?

[MasterAblar]

The point is that he is wrong, at least relative to everything everyone but a handful who spend a lot of time near Rand believe, and us Readers.

 

The teacher dude at the Carihien school even says, "Break the seals? Break the seals? Why would anyone but a madman want to do that?" (LoC).

 

LTT says, "Break the seals, break the seals and end it. Let me die forever". Do you think that was a sane thought about actually winning?

 

Except Egwene recieved the opinion of one who has been close to Rand: Nyneave. And Darlin counts too. And Elayne wasn't completely behind Egwene at first either.

[NetSlider]

She's not a politician, or AS, or anything else - all she is at this point is a freaking 20 year old kid with a lot of power and a lot of potential, and that's about it. She's trying to take responsibility for the world affairs with the experience of a freaking hamster.

At least Rand had prophecies and the birthright. Now he has memories of countless lives and a real leadership experience. I was neutral to her before as well, but now she needs to be taken out completely. Maybe in history she will go down as a great leader, but history has flukes like that all the time and in practical terms she's been almost completely useless and now became extremely dangerous to the cause. Man do I hope there is something very, very tragic in her very near future.

[Agitel]

She's not a politician, or AS, or anything else - all she is at this point is a freaking 20 year old kid with a lot of power and a lot of potential, and that's about it. She's trying to take responsibility for the world affairs with the experience of a freaking hamster.

At least Rand had prophecies and the birthright. Now he has memories of countless lives and a real leadership experience. I was neutral to her before as well, but now she needs to be taken out completely. Maybe in history she will go down as a great leader, but history has flukes like that all the time and in practical terms she's been almost completely useless and now became extremely dangerous to the cause. Man do I hope there is something very, very tragic in her very near future.

 

Alright, somebody needs to settle down a bit.

[MasterAblar]

She's not a politician, or AS, or anything else - all she is at this point is a freaking 20 year old kid with a lot of power and a lot of potential, and that's about it. She's trying to take responsibility for the world affairs with the experience of a freaking hamster.

At least Rand had prophecies and the birthright. Now he has memories of countless lives and a real leadership experience. I was neutral to her before as well, but now she needs to be taken out completely. Maybe in history she will go down as a great leader, but history has flukes like that all the time and in practical terms she's been almost completely useless and now became extremely dangerous to the cause. Man do I hope there is something very, very tragic in her very near future.

 

Well, that seems a bit radical to me.

[MasterAblar]

Sorry, double post.

[Elan Tedronai]

Reading this thread only makes waiting for AMOL that bit harder.

 

This board would be glorious to see when AMOL ends and Egwene is still around slapping AS and leaders silly while Rand disappears from the scene all together

[NetSlider]

She's not a politician, or AS, or anything else - all she is at this point is a freaking 20 year old kid with a lot of power and a lot of potential, and that's about it. She's trying to take responsibility for the world affairs with the experience of a freaking hamster.

At least Rand had prophecies and the birthright. Now he has memories of countless lives and a real leadership experience. I was neutral to her before as well, but now she needs to be taken out completely. Maybe in history she will go down as a great leader, but history has flukes like that all the time and in practical terms she's been almost completely useless and now became extremely dangerous to the cause. Man do I hope there is something very, very tragic in her very near future.

 

Alright, somebody needs to settle down a bit.

 

Yeah, I know . I'm trying to stay away from Egwene's post for this reason (I think my feeling are pretty clear at this point).

Just couldn't help myself. I'm not even kidding, every time I do ToM re-read it gets a lot worse. Last time I just got so angry how she was like, "well, I'm not gonna take the AS test, but let me make sure that my best friend will suffer as much as I can make just to show everyone that I am as good (in an AS way) as they are." I just wish Nay would spit in her face after the test.GGGRRRR!!!!! Honestly, what a bitch!

 

 

[NetSlider]

Reading this thread only makes waiting for AMOL that bit harder.

 

This board would be glorious to see when AMOL ends and Egwene is still around slapping AS and leaders silly while Rand disappears from the scene all together

 

Well, I hope Luke is still around than.

[Randommer]

I sort of just threw it out there, but it does make sense to me:

 

“She saw an enormous sphere made of the finest crystal. It sparkled in the light of twenty-three enormous stars, shining down on it where it sat on a dark hilltop. There were cracks in it, and it was being held together by ropes There was Rand, walking up the hillside, holding a woodman's axe. He reached the top and hefted the axe, then swung at the ropes one at a time, chopping them free. The last one parted, and the sphere began to break apart, the beautiful globe falling in pieces. Rand shook his head.”

 

Shining sphere, light, beautiful = White Tower

Stars = the basic power structure of WT

Cracks = The troubles and fractions within WT

 

Rand shaking his head also implies that this is not something he wants to do, but has to (OK, the same could be said about breaking the seals)

 

I really like that interpretation. Way less troublesome than the other one, and it goes with a theory I've had for the last book or two. I think the plot, in keeping with RJ's style, has been setting Egwene up for a fall.

 

I mean, she's pretty much just deposed Rand in one fell swoop, or tried to. It won't work cos he's so ta'veren and the world's only hope (and he knows that) but that is her aim, and that's why she wants all the armies there. Gathering all an emperor's armies and leaders in one place to stand against him? Yeah, that's deposing him, and I think that's what she means when she talks about him 'forcing her hand' and 'tying those nations to the WT'.

 

Deposing the DR before the last battle? Pretty arrogant, I would say, and narratively, when has RJ allowed arrogance to go unpunished in a character? Elaida, LTT, Elayne (getting captured and stabbed for being too arrogant), even Nynaeve took a knock with the whole Birgitte thing. I think Egwene might be doomed, figuratively at least. And I really hope I'm right, cos setting a main character up like that would be some brilliant planning on RJ's part.

[Kahsm]

Shining sphere, light, beautiful = White Tower

Stars = the basic power structure of WT

Cracks = The troubles and fractions within WT

I really like that interpretation. Way less troublesome than the other one, and it goes with a theory I've had for the last book or two. I think the plot, in keeping with RJ's style, has been setting Egwene up for a fall.

 

I mean, she's pretty much just deposed Rand in one fell swoop, or tried to. It won't work cos he's so ta'veren and the world's only hope (and he knows that) but that is her aim, and that's why she wants all the armies there. Gathering all an emperor's armies and leaders in one place to stand against him? Yeah, that's deposing him, and I think that's what she means when she talks about him 'forcing her hand' and 'tying those nations to the WT'.

 

Deposing the DR before the last battle? Pretty arrogant, I would say, and narratively, when has RJ allowed arrogance to go unpunished in a character? Elaida, LTT, Elayne (getting captured and stabbed for being too arrogant), even Nynaeve took a knock with the whole Birgitte thing. I think Egwene might be doomed, figuratively at least. And I really hope I'm right, cos setting a main character up like that would be some brilliant planning on RJ's part.

Opposing his plan to break the seals, does not mean she opposes the dragon reborn. If he were to break the seals do you think she would refuse to help with whatever the consequences were? Give me a break. Do you think Egwene is acting like Pedron Naill did and trying to get rid of Rand so she can fight the Last Battle herself?

 

Also, if Rand was the world's ONLY hope, then how is the pattern still in existence if the CoL has turned to the shadow in previous turnings? (as confirmed by RJ) hrm?

[Guest PiotrekS]

Shining sphere, light, beautiful = White Tower

Stars = the basic power structure of WT

Cracks = The troubles and fractions within WT

I really like that interpretation. Way less troublesome than the other one, and it goes with a theory I've had for the last book or two. I think the plot, in keeping with RJ's style, has been setting Egwene up for a fall.

 

I mean, she's pretty much just deposed Rand in one fell swoop, or tried to. It won't work cos he's so ta'veren and the world's only hope (and he knows that) but that is her aim, and that's why she wants all the armies there. Gathering all an emperor's armies and leaders in one place to stand against him? Yeah, that's deposing him, and I think that's what she means when she talks about him 'forcing her hand' and 'tying those nations to the WT'.

 

Deposing the DR before the last battle? Pretty arrogant, I would say, and narratively, when has RJ allowed arrogance to go unpunished in a character? Elaida, LTT, Elayne (getting captured and stabbed for being too arrogant), even Nynaeve took a knock with the whole Birgitte thing. I think Egwene might be doomed, figuratively at least. And I really hope I'm right, cos setting a main character up like that would be some brilliant planning on RJ's part.

Opposing his plan to break the seals, does not mean she opposes the dragon reborn. If he were to break the seals do you think she would refuse to help with whatever the consequences were? Give me a break. Do you think Egwene is acting like Pedron Naill did and trying to get rid of Rand so she can fight the Last Battle herself?

 

Also, if Rand was the world's ONLY hope, then how is the pattern still in existence if the CoL has turned to the shadow in previous turnings? (as confirmed by RJ) hrm?

 

That's actually interesting. If Rand is not the only hope, but only one of at least few options for the Light to win, then what's the big deal about the Champion of Light? What is he really for? Why does the DO care about him and not about, let's say, Egwene?

[Kahsm]

Shining sphere, light, beautiful = White Tower

Stars = the basic power structure of WT

Cracks = The troubles and fractions within WT

I really like that interpretation. Way less troublesome than the other one, and it goes with a theory I've had for the last book or two. I think the plot, in keeping with RJ's style, has been setting Egwene up for a fall.

 

I mean, she's pretty much just deposed Rand in one fell swoop, or tried to. It won't work cos he's so ta'veren and the world's only hope (and he knows that) but that is her aim, and that's why she wants all the armies there. Gathering all an emperor's armies and leaders in one place to stand against him? Yeah, that's deposing him, and I think that's what she means when she talks about him 'forcing her hand' and 'tying those nations to the WT'.

 

Deposing the DR before the last battle? Pretty arrogant, I would say, and narratively, when has RJ allowed arrogance to go unpunished in a character? Elaida, LTT, Elayne (getting captured and stabbed for being too arrogant), even Nynaeve took a knock with the whole Birgitte thing. I think Egwene might be doomed, figuratively at least. And I really hope I'm right, cos setting a main character up like that would be some brilliant planning on RJ's part.

Opposing his plan to break the seals, does not mean she opposes the dragon reborn. If he were to break the seals do you think she would refuse to help with whatever the consequences were? Give me a break. Do you think Egwene is acting like Pedron Naill did and trying to get rid of Rand so she can fight the Last Battle herself?

 

Also, if Rand was the world's ONLY hope, then how is the pattern still in existence if the CoL has turned to the shadow in previous turnings? (as confirmed by RJ) hrm?

 

That's actually interesting. If Rand is not the only hope, but only one of at least few options for the Light to win, then what's the big deal about the Champion of Light? What is he really for? Why does the DO care about him and not about, let's say, Egwene?

 

Just to backtrack on my own point a bit. RJ specifically said that when the CoL goes CoS that the battles ended in a "draw". So technically you could say he is needed to "win", but not needed to "avoid losing".

 

So either there have been institutions that have been powerful enough to stand against the CoS? Maybe the HoV was used in some capacity against the CoS? Maybe they just stabbed him in the back and eliminated him from the picture all together... knife in the shadows.

 

Either way, Rand isn't as crucial as some make him sound. He is the best hope for a good outcome though, no doubt.

[baalsmistress]

As I mentioned before, we only have the dark one's word that he will break the wheel.

 

I've always assumed that that is his dream, his desire, but he is not actually capable of doing that since he is a part of the creator's vision, and accounted for in the design of the pattern.

[Randommer]

Shining sphere, light, beautiful = White Tower

Stars = the basic power structure of WT

Cracks = The troubles and fractions within WT

I really like that interpretation. Way less troublesome than the other one, and it goes with a theory I've had for the last book or two. I think the plot, in keeping with RJ's style, has been setting Egwene up for a fall.

 

I mean, she's pretty much just deposed Rand in one fell swoop, or tried to. It won't work cos he's so ta'veren and the world's only hope (and he knows that) but that is her aim, and that's why she wants all the armies there. Gathering all an emperor's armies and leaders in one place to stand against him? Yeah, that's deposing him, and I think that's what she means when she talks about him 'forcing her hand' and 'tying those nations to the WT'.

 

Deposing the DR before the last battle? Pretty arrogant, I would say, and narratively, when has RJ allowed arrogance to go unpunished in a character? Elaida, LTT, Elayne (getting captured and stabbed for being too arrogant), even Nynaeve took a knock with the whole Birgitte thing. I think Egwene might be doomed, figuratively at least. And I really hope I'm right, cos setting a main character up like that would be some brilliant planning on RJ's part.

Opposing his plan to break the seals, does not mean she opposes the dragon reborn. If he were to break the seals do you think she would refuse to help with whatever the consequences were? Give me a break. Do you think Egwene is acting like Pedron Naill did and trying to get rid of Rand so she can fight the Last Battle herself?

 

Also, if Rand was the world's ONLY hope, then how is the pattern still in existence if the CoL has turned to the shadow in previous turnings? (as confirmed by RJ) hrm?

I didn't say she opposed him. At least, not in the sense of being on the complete opposite side of the fight. But she has in effect tried to depose him by gathering his forces against him. And yeah, I do think she's being a bit Niall-esque. She knows Rand needs to be there, but she wants to be pulling as many of the strings as she possibly can. Rand is partly at fault for this, for not explaining himself better, but she's still being incredibly arrogant.

 

And no, maybe Rand's not the world's only hope; that wasn't my point and the whole thing's very unclear. But he is pretty darn vital, and Egwene doesn't know those RJ quotes.

[Manscher]

Shining sphere, light, beautiful = White Tower

Stars = the basic power structure of WT

Cracks = The troubles and fractions within WT

I really like that interpretation. Way less troublesome than the other one, and it goes with a theory I've had for the last book or two. I think the plot, in keeping with RJ's style, has been setting Egwene up for a fall.

 

I mean, she's pretty much just deposed Rand in one fell swoop, or tried to. It won't work cos he's so ta'veren and the world's only hope (and he knows that) but that is her aim, and that's why she wants all the armies there. Gathering all an emperor's armies and leaders in one place to stand against him? Yeah, that's deposing him, and I think that's what she means when she talks about him 'forcing her hand' and 'tying those nations to the WT'.

 

Deposing the DR before the last battle? Pretty arrogant, I would say, and narratively, when has RJ allowed arrogance to go unpunished in a character? Elaida, LTT, Elayne (getting captured and stabbed for being too arrogant), even Nynaeve took a knock with the whole Birgitte thing. I think Egwene might be doomed, figuratively at least. And I really hope I'm right, cos setting a main character up like that would be some brilliant planning on RJ's part.

Opposing his plan to break the seals, does not mean she opposes the dragon reborn. If he were to break the seals do you think she would refuse to help with whatever the consequences were? Give me a break. Do you think Egwene is acting like Pedron Naill did and trying to get rid of Rand so she can fight the Last Battle herself?

 

Also, if Rand was the world's ONLY hope, then how is the pattern still in existence if the CoL has turned to the shadow in previous turnings? (as confirmed by RJ) hrm?

 

That's actually interesting. If Rand is not the only hope, but only one of at least few options for the Light to win, then what's the big deal about the Champion of Light? What is he really for? Why does the DO care about him and not about, let's say, Egwene?

 

Just to backtrack on my own point a bit. RJ specifically said that when the CoL goes CoS that the battles ended in a "draw". So technically you could say he is needed to "win", but not needed to "avoid losing".

 

So either there have been institutions that have been powerful enough to stand against the CoS? Maybe the HoV was used in some capacity against the CoS? Maybe they just stabbed him in the back and eliminated him from the picture all together... knife in the shadows.

 

Either way, Rand isn't as crucial as some make him sound. He is the best hope for a good outcome though, no doubt.

 

I always considered the end of the Age of Legends an example of what happens when the fights becomes a "draw", if Rand completely broke down at VoG, then we would be looking at a scenario where the CoL got turned to the shadow and destroyed the pattern, and effectively a win for the shadow. Now that Rand got past the event at VoG, the best the Shadow can now hope for is a draw, by killing the CoL.

[Elan Tedronai]

rand breaking down makes no difference to grand scheme of things. This whole VOG thingy is just a timewaster.

 

Give ishy the choedan kal and the world would end just the same.

[TamTam Rapley]

I just started a re-read of EotW, and I noticed several similarities with country Egwene and Amrylin Egwene. She has a precedence of dismissing anything Rand says as foolishness. For example, Rand, Perrin, and Mat see a fade and she evedrops on their conversation and she states that they shouldn't make up stories. Rand says that the Trollocs are chasing them and they must leave Edmond's Field, Egwene disagrees because she thinks they just want to leave on an adventure. Rand states that he met the Daughter-heir of Andor and she just laughs in his face. She never assumes that Rand may be telling the truth or may be right. Instead of listening to the evidence, she always outright dismisses it. Every interaction between the two feel quite similiar to Egwene's reaction to Rand in the WT.

[Manscher]

rand breaking down makes no difference to grand scheme of things. This whole VOG thingy is just a timewaster.

 

Give ishy the choedan kal and the world would end just the same.

 

 

And yet the Shadow have spend so much time and resources on Rand specifically! He's the Fisher King, you need him to win, that goes for both the Light and the Shadow. Without him, only a draw can be gained through a "bloody melee"

 

 

I just started a re-read of EotW, and I noticed several similarities with country Egwene and Amrylin Egwene. She has a precedence of dismissing anything Rand says as foolishness. For example, Rand, Perrin, and Mat see a fade and she evedrops on their conversation and she states that they shouldn't make up stories. Rand says that the Trollocs are chasing them and they must leave Edmond's Field, Egwene disagrees because she thinks they just want to leave on an adventure. Rand states that he met the Daughter-heir of Andor and she just laughs in his face. She never assumes that Rand may be telling the truth or may be right. Instead of listening to the evidence, she always outright dismisses it. Every interaction between the two feel quite similiar to Egwene's reaction to Rand in the WT.

 

Indeed, she haven't really changed personality wise, which is why Rand has such an easy time manipulating her in the start of ToM.

[Elan Tedronai]

rand breaking down makes no difference to grand scheme of things. This whole VOG thingy is just a timewaster.

 

Give ishy the choedan kal and the world would end just the same.

 

 

And yet the Shadow have spend so much time and resources on Rand specifically! He's the Fisher King, you need him to win, that goes for both the Light and the Shadow. Without him, only a draw can be gained through a "bloody melee"

 

 

 

 

Indeed, she haven't really changed personality wise, which is why Rand has such an easy time manipulating her in the start of ToM.

 

 

The shadow should spend more time in going after objects of power rather than playing mind games. If ishy wielded that Kal on dragonmount, then no amount of fisher kings would have saved the world.

 

Ishy would have ended it right there. And there's nothing Rand could have done about it. Which just illustrates the fact that plot is and was completely broken from the start.